Electric Car in your future?

lynnmor

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Equipment
B2601-1
May 3, 2021
824
573
93
Red Lion
And lastly, since gas cars pay for the roads that they tear up by fuel tax, an ev don't pay for gas thus no gas tax paid, and they're tearing up roads just as much if not more (because they weigh more-a lot more), the gov't is hitting them in different ways. Here, it's $200 to renew your tags every year plus I think they're also taxing them higher at the personal property level. On a gas car you pay what, $0.22/gal tax?
I pay about $0.76/gal gas tax, much more for diesel.
 

skeets

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BX 2360 /B2601
Oct 2, 2009
12,978
1,727
113
SW Pa
I just wonder how many people will be looking at your EV in the parking lot 20 years from now, or my old 392 hemi powered 35 Plymouth coupe. Well, some bodies 35 Plymouth, you know when things go sideways the first things to go are your toys :(
 

Oil pan 4

Active member

Equipment
L185 turbo
Sep 21, 2017
322
74
28
NM
Saw an article about a local very small school district getting 3 electric school buses.

The Village the school district is in has a municipal electric system.

Village will need to upgrade transformers and other components to accommodate charging 3 buses.

Also, the village’s system/supply contracts do not have freeboard to accommodate the new load.

All users of the system may end up paying for system improvements to implement “cost saving” measures….
That doesn't sound like a vehicle problem.
That falls under user stupidity. They should have thought of that before buying them.
When we got our leaf I already had one 240v welder circuit wired and breakered for 60amps of near continuous use when we got our leaf. Then I very easily added 2 more outdoor 20 amp 240v plug-ins for the ultimate charging convenience.
 

Oil pan 4

Active member

Equipment
L185 turbo
Sep 21, 2017
322
74
28
NM
not going to post pics but last week my friend who lives on the battered SW florida coast sent me a vid of several golf cars in big flames. Saltwater gets into the connections, they corrode, and away they went. Remember that area was under 20 feet of water for a little bit.

I know people call bull malarky on that, but it's true

one thing (of many) that folks don't understand is runaway amperage dump. Li-Ion and LIFePo batteries have a BMU, or battery management unit. The bmu is supposed to control the runaway amperage. Li-based batteries can make a TON of amperage, and the wiring can't handle it, so up in flames it goes. When they do go up in flames it's usually a failure of the bmu, in the case of those golf cars, corrosion within the "sealed" bmu caused the failure. I have seen this and it is real. And real scary.

My coworker is part time, but full time firefighter. Captain actually but whatever. They are currently training for EV fire suppression and the way he explained to me is that it takes up to 20 min for a truck to show up, and it takes a lot of suppression (more than the truck can handle) to get the fire out. Thus, the fire trucks are all gonna have to be upgraded at some point as ev's become more prevalent. Crashes are GOING to happen and there is no guarantee that these things are 100% safe from fire, same as gas cars aren't although we've had over 100 years to 'perfect' those, yet we have at most 10 years to 'perfect' lithium-based battery powered cars. They're already shoving it down our throats and a few people are buying them.

My other boss owns a car dealer. A while back he hollered at me and said jump in the truck we gotta go get a car (traded in, at customer's house). It was a 21 Tesla S. I drove it home. It's way overrated. The big screen is really distracting. It's quick and it's fast. Here's the deal though. The owner traded it in on a Ford Explorer ST I believe it was. I asked why, he said he bought the tesla to go back & forth to his kid's school, about 200 miles one way from where they live. They advertised that the tesla could do it without issue, BUT real world, it won't. He's got to stop and charge about 3/4 of the way there and charging stations are nonexistent. On that stretch of highway (and it's all freeway, 75mph max) there are 2 stations. One at 55 mi from here and the other about 109 as I remember. You pay for both of them and the KwH charge is about 200% higher than it is residential. I asked why it won't make it all the way, owner said that it's hilly. Hills cause more load. More load causes more drain on the battery. Marketing. They're gonna say "it'll go 300 miles on a charge" (or whatever they say) but what they don't say is that 300 miles is under ideal conditions which are somewhat rare. Some guys say they can get that and then some. Good for you. Not everyone can, because everyone's conditions are different and maybe they're hauling around 4 kids and 2 adults and tools or whatever in the trunks. Or groceries. Who knows. Loading causes more juice to be used just like a gas car but gas stations are everywhere; charging stations are not. Yet. Power companies can't handle high demand already so that means an upgrade is gonna have to happen which is going to cost EVERYONE not just EV owners. Y'all ready for that? And lastly, since gas cars pay for the roads that they tear up by fuel tax, an ev don't pay for gas thus no gas tax paid, and they're tearing up roads just as much if not more (because they weigh more-a lot more), the gov't is hitting them in different ways. Here, it's $200 to renew your tags every year plus I think they're also taxing them higher at the personal property level. On a gas car you pay what, $0.22/gal tax? And you can stretch that out over time. You pay more but not all at once. On EV, to renew your tags, you pay $200 plus renewal ($55 or whatever) and since EV's weigh more, they also have to pay more because of the vehicle weight as the state charges differently per vehicle weight. My little 93 Mustang costs $17.50 to renew tags every year. The truck, which weighs 3x (plus) more, $55.50. Just an example. Big changes coming and I hope y'all are ready for it.

some say ev is cheaper and if you put the pen to the paper and figure everything in, it's really not. Just because you ain't paying for gas or gas tax doesn't mean you're not getting hit somewhere else. Boss and I talked about this in depth a while back and the figures add up perfectly. EV does in fact cost more.

less maintenance? Maybe a LITTLE less. You ain't changing oil but there's other things. Tires won't last as long (weight), there is coolant to change periodically, there is transaxle fluid(s), etc etc. Just because you ain't got no engine don't mean there ain't no maintenance. It's just a different kind of maintenance.

and tesla? If your tesla is under warranty I understand (from the boss) that ONLY tesla can work on it. Once out of warranty, the local service center washes their hands of it and they don't ever want to see it again even if YOU (the owner) are willing to pay for repairs. So you're hung out to dry. He may be a little off on that and he admits to that but it's his impression from the tsla service center down the road. Tesla is a technology company that just happens to build cars, and from what I am hearing from the owners around this area, they're not happy about spending a LOT of money and then getting a product that is not quite up to car-manufacturing standards. But hey it's got cool tech.

There are so many challenges facing this whole ev thing that I ain't sure they can be resolved by the time the illustrious government wants them fully implemented.
We got ours in 2018 when gas was $2 a gallon and the dealer almost paid us to take it. Since then we ran up over 60,000 miles, I have put 2 sets of tire and 2 oil changes, 2 brake fluid flushes. The original tires lasted about 50,000 miles and the second set also lasted 50,000 miles. The dealer offered to put new tires on it but I didn't want the cheapest dog shit tire they had laying around. It does need premium low rolling resistance tires to get the best range, but I put higher end tires on everything we have. I learned to stay away from cheap tires. We could sell it today for more than we bought it for.
The coolant has never been changed since 2010 and it still tests good.
 

Oil pan 4

Active member

Equipment
L185 turbo
Sep 21, 2017
322
74
28
NM
not going to post pics but last week my friend who lives on the battered SW florida coast sent me a vid of several golf cars in big flames. Saltwater gets into the connections, they corrode, and away they went. Remember that area was under 20 feet of water for a little bit.

I know people call bull malarky on that, but it's true

one thing (of many) that folks don't understand is runaway amperage dump. Li-Ion and LIFePo batteries have a BMU, or battery management unit. The bmu is supposed to control the runaway amperage. Li-based batteries can make a TON of amperage, and the wiring can't handle it, so up in flames it goes. When they do go up in flames it's usually a failure of the bmu, in the case of those golf cars, corrosion within the "sealed" bmu caused the failure. I have seen this and it is real. And real scary.

My coworker is part time, but full time firefighter. Captain actually but whatever. They are currently training for EV fire suppression and the way he explained to me is that it takes up to 20 min for a truck to show up, and it takes a lot of suppression (more than the truck can handle) to get the fire out. Thus, the fire trucks are all gonna have to be upgraded at some point as ev's become more prevalent. Crashes are GOING to happen and there is no guarantee that these things are 100% safe from fire, same as gas cars aren't although we've had over 100 years to 'perfect' those, yet we have at most 10 years to 'perfect' lithium-based battery powered cars. They're already shoving it down our throats and a few people are buying them.

My other boss owns a car dealer. A while back he hollered at me and said jump in the truck we gotta go get a car (traded in, at customer's house). It was a 21 Tesla S. I drove it home. It's way overrated. The big screen is really distracting. It's quick and it's fast. Here's the deal though. The owner traded it in on a Ford Explorer ST I believe it was. I asked why, he said he bought the tesla to go back & forth to his kid's school, about 200 miles one way from where they live. They advertised that the tesla could do it without issue, BUT real world, it won't. He's got to stop and charge about 3/4 of the way there and charging stations are nonexistent. On that stretch of highway (and it's all freeway, 75mph max) there are 2 stations. One at 55 mi from here and the other about 109 as I remember. You pay for both of them and the KwH charge is about 200% higher than it is residential. I asked why it won't make it all the way, owner said that it's hilly. Hills cause more load. More load causes more drain on the battery. Marketing. They're gonna say "it'll go 300 miles on a charge" (or whatever they say) but what they don't say is that 300 miles is under ideal conditions which are somewhat rare. Some guys say they can get that and then some. Good for you. Not everyone can, because everyone's conditions are different and maybe they're hauling around 4 kids and 2 adults and tools or whatever in the trunks. Or groceries. Who knows. Loading causes more juice to be used just like a gas car but gas stations are everywhere; charging stations are not. Yet. Power companies can't handle high demand already so that means an upgrade is gonna have to happen which is going to cost EVERYONE not just EV owners. Y'all ready for that? And lastly, since gas cars pay for the roads that they tear up by fuel tax, an ev don't pay for gas thus no gas tax paid, and they're tearing up roads just as much if not more (because they weigh more-a lot more), the gov't is hitting them in different ways. Here, it's $200 to renew your tags every year plus I think they're also taxing them higher at the personal property level. On a gas car you pay what, $0.22/gal tax? And you can stretch that out over time. You pay more but not all at once. On EV, to renew your tags, you pay $200 plus renewal ($55 or whatever) and since EV's weigh more, they also have to pay more because of the vehicle weight as the state charges differently per vehicle weight. My little 93 Mustang costs $17.50 to renew tags every year. The truck, which weighs 3x (plus) more, $55.50. Just an example. Big changes coming and I hope y'all are ready for it.

some say ev is cheaper and if you put the pen to the paper and figure everything in, it's really not. Just because you ain't paying for gas or gas tax doesn't mean you're not getting hit somewhere else. Boss and I talked about this in depth a while back and the figures add up perfectly. EV does in fact cost more.

less maintenance? Maybe a LITTLE less. You ain't changing oil but there's other things. Tires won't last as long (weight), there is coolant to change periodically, there is transaxle fluid(s), etc etc. Just because you ain't got no engine don't mean there ain't no maintenance. It's just a different kind of maintenance.

and tesla? If your tesla is under warranty I understand (from the boss) that ONLY tesla can work on it. Once out of warranty, the local service center washes their hands of it and they don't ever want to see it again even if YOU (the owner) are willing to pay for repairs. So you're hung out to dry. He may be a little off on that and he admits to that but it's his impression from the tsla service center down the road. Tesla is a technology company that just happens to build cars, and from what I am hearing from the owners around this area, they're not happy about spending a LOT of money and then getting a product that is not quite up to car-manufacturing standards. But hey it's got cool tech.

There are so many challenges facing this whole ev thing that I ain't sure they can be resolved by the time the illustrious government wants them fully implemented.
In 10 years no leaf has ever had a battery fire. No leaf has ever been crashed hard enough to damage the battery enough to cause a fire.
I know teslas have done a bit of both and only been around half as long as the leaf.
I pay the same price for tags as a gasoline car.
 
Last edited:

mikester

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M59 TLB
Oct 21, 2017
1,936
764
113
Canada
www.divergentstuff.ca
No oil changes to deal with, brakes will last longer with one pedal driving.
I did put in a dedicated charging 240 V station. I'm still trying to figure out the increase in electric bill due to the electric car.
Theoretically it should only be $35/month.
If you live in an area where the roads get winter road salt you will have to either pay to get the brakes serviced regularly or do it yourself. Our hybrids brakes last a long time but they tend to get siezed from salt and corrosion due to lack of use. I do a full brake service every time I take off the snow tires.

Car insurance for a Tesla costs 50% more than a Prius PHEV. The money I'd save on gas gets taken by the insurance companies. My HEV costs $0.06/km to drive. An electric will cost $0.04/km to drive.
 

GreensvilleJay

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Equipment
BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
5,639
1,993
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
EVs have their place, just not on my property. I need a vehicle that'll start up in Winter, drive on SALTY white roads, carry 100s of pounds of stuff, have a heater and A/C.
One reason no Leaf battery fires could be they're really SMALL compared to Tesla or F150 Lightning batteries. Far fewer cells ( 2/3 less..) so odds are better it won't ignite. Less power, lower current, run cooler.
The posted distance an EV can go won't include passengers, cargo, heater/defroster or A/C being on,usually with the $$$ rim/tire combo though. It'd be nice for 'them' to post ACTUAL condition of test.
I KNOW I can't just add a 40A breaker for the charger, my panel is FULL,maxed out, no room at the inn and .would need to get a 200A feed from the stack. To do that is about $8K CDN ,as of last week.
 

fried1765

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Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Nov 14, 2019
1,996
1,395
113
Eastham, Ma
We are experiencing the same sort of FUD and speculative arguments that preceded a lot of things that are an everyday reality - a few that come quickly to mind!

  1. Electric lights
  2. The telephone
  3. The horseless carriage
  4. The internet
  5. Roof top solar
  6. Digital TV
  7. The cell phone
  8. Dick Tracey's two way wrist watch TV
I believe the EV die is cast just as it was with those technologies. The infrastructure and cost issues will be resolved as demand and usage increases. If not it will fail on its merits not preconceived biases.

Five years ago I did not give an EV much thought. If I were buying new tommorow it would be high on my list. I have never ever wanted to drive more than 400 miles in a day let alone in one sitting and the performance of modern electric cars is phenomenal. Eight hundred plus horsepower, enough torque to snap your neck, and a cabin that is incredibly confortable and convenient cannot be ignored. I test drove a friends modestly expensive Tesla Model S and it was an unwordly experience. Much like a different friends rediculosly expensive two seat Mercedes twin turbo V8 AMG but with more seating, more comfort and less noise....

Dan
Millions of drivers will not be satisfied with the 400 mile limitation that works just fine for you!
 
Last edited:

GreensvilleJay

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BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
5,639
1,993
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
400 MILES ??!! It'd be nice to know WHICH EV can do that, carrying the usual load of people and stuff, say in Winter, stuck on the highway, with heater on, defrosters on, radio of course, heaters in seats, and lights......

The HUGE problem perhaps the biggest hurdle ) is that NONE of the EVs can get their battery filled ( 10% to 100% ) is anywhere NEAR the time a gas or diesel powered vehicle can. That days hours to DAYS depending on the charger, the tech exists to recharge 100kWh batteries in 30 minutes,dang expensive tech though
 

Oil pan 4

Active member

Equipment
L185 turbo
Sep 21, 2017
322
74
28
NM
EVs have their place, just not on my property. I need a vehicle that'll start up in Winter, drive on SALTY white roads, carry 100s of pounds of stuff, have a heater and A/C.
One reason no Leaf battery fires could be they're really SMALL compared to Tesla or F150 Lightning batteries. Far fewer cells ( 2/3 less..) so odds are better it won't ignite. Less power, lower current, run cooler.
The posted distance an EV can go won't include passengers, cargo, heater/defroster or A/C being on,usually with the $$$ rim/tire combo though. It'd be nice for 'them' to post ACTUAL condition of test.
I KNOW I can't just add a 40A breaker for the charger, my panel is FULL,maxed out, no room at the inn and .would need to get a 200A feed from the stack. To do that is about $8K CDN ,as of last week.
Leaf batteries do not run cooler. The leaf has no active cooling. Tesla, ford and gm all run active cooling. Just because they are smaller doesn't mean anything. The leaf 40kwh pack is known for running extremely hot.
I added a sub panel to make room a charger, solar panels, more welder plugs.
I added a diesel fired rv heater because powering the heater with battery power is stupid.
 

Oil pan 4

Active member

Equipment
L185 turbo
Sep 21, 2017
322
74
28
NM
400 MILES ??!! It'd be nice to know WHICH EV can do that, carrying the usual load of people and stuff, say in Winter, stuck on the highway, with heater on, defrosters on, radio of course, heaters in seats, and lights......

The HUGE problem perhaps the biggest hurdle ) is that NONE of the EVs can get their battery filled ( 10% to 100% ) is anywhere NEAR the time a gas or diesel powered vehicle can. That days hours to DAYS depending on the charger, the tech exists to recharge 100kWh batteries in 30 minutes,dang expensive tech though
People who take an electric vehicle on road trips are stupid.
 

jimh406

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Lifetime Member

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Kubota L2501 with R4 tires
Jan 29, 2021
1,366
903
113
Western MT
People who take an electric vehicle on road trips are stupid.
That's harsh. ;)

In my area, you have to plan out buying gasoline on some cross-country trips. I can't imagine trying to make sure you can find a charging station. But, I'm ok with it if that's what they want to do.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
5,639
1,993
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
re: Leaf batteries do not run cooler.

When I said 'cooler' , I was referring to the I-squared-R losses NOT the battery temperature. When you do the 'math', drawing 3x the current , results in NINE times the loss,so 9x more heat....

re: Just because they are smaller doesn't mean anything

yes, it does. the Leaf battery has fewer cells,connections and electronics compared to larger, higher capacity batteries. so (again math...) LESS chance of problems.

re: I added a sub panel to make room a charger, solar panels, more welder plugs

So you didn't INCREASE the power from the pole ? I'm like most people, maxxed out on actual power, not 'spaces for breakers'. If I just added a 40A breaker for an EV, I'd pop the 100A main while welding, cooking dinner,freezers, well pump and LASER printer.

re: I added a diesel fired rv heater because powering the heater with battery power is stupid.
maybe but that's how the car mfrs do it......far more efficient than a diesel heater, from an energy transfer point.
 

Oil pan 4

Active member

Equipment
L185 turbo
Sep 21, 2017
322
74
28
NM
re: Leaf batteries do not run cooler.

When I said 'cooler' , I was referring to the I-squared-R losses NOT the battery temperature. When you do the 'math', drawing 3x the current , results in NINE times the loss,so 9x more heat....

re: Just because they are smaller doesn't mean anything

yes, it does. the Leaf battery has fewer cells,connections and electronics compared to larger, higher capacity batteries. so (again math...) LESS chance of problems.

re: I added a sub panel to make room a charger, solar panels, more welder plugs

So you didn't INCREASE the power from the pole ? I'm like most people, maxxed out on actual power, not 'spaces for breakers'. If I just added a 40A breaker for an EV, I'd pop the 100A main while welding, cooking dinner,freezers, well pump and LASER printer.

re: I added a diesel fired rv heater because powering the heater with battery power is stupid.
maybe but that's how the car mfrs do it......far more efficient than a diesel heater, from an energy transfer point.
That's not statistically valid at all. The leaf has been around 10 years no fires. The Chevy bolts that got recalled started catching on fire almost as soon as they left dealerships.
Tesla and GM use a more unstable battery chemistry. If tesla and GM batteries got as hot as leaf batteries, we would see about a 100% failure rate.
I do most of my charging with a 12 amp 240 charger. I have 200 amp service using a few more amps is irrelevant.
I'm only concerned with how far it goes in the winter. The heater running off battery power is bleading off 2 to 3kw as I go down the road, that kills the only efficiency that matters.
 
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mikester

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M59 TLB
Oct 21, 2017
1,936
764
113
Canada
www.divergentstuff.ca
That's not statistically valid at all. The leaf has been around 10 years no fires. The Chevy bolts that got recalled started catching on fire almost as soon as they left dealerships.
Tesla and GM use a more unstable battery chemistry. If tesla and GM batteries got as hot as leaf batteries, we would see about a 100% failure rate.
I do most of my charging with a 12 amp 240 charger. I have 200 amp service using a few more amps is irrelevant.
I'm only concerned with how far it goes in the winter. The heater running off battery power is beading off 2 to 3kw as I go down the road, that kills the only efficiency that matters.
FYI When it's really cold out Tesla disables the regenerative braking until the battery heater gets the batteries up to temperature.

EV'a are good in warmer climates, take a big hit when it gets cold out. For me that's 4-6 months a year.
 

GreensvilleJay

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BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
5,639
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Greensville,Ontario,Canada
Ontario Homes Now Required to Support Level 2 Charging

Per the new requirements for detached, semidetached and row homes, each home must be equipped with a minimum 200A panel. This is significant, because prior to these new requirements, most homes had been equipped with the more affordable 100A panel. Homes must also have 27mm conduit leading to 220V, 30A outlet box installed in the garage or driveway.

Knew this was coming, sigh.....
Have a HUGE housing crisis and THIS is what the government demands....
New neighbour was dinged an extra $10K for the required 'upgrade'

The irony is that we're supposed to reduce our energy use ,yet they force up into $$$ 200 A service upgrades.

When the other shoe drops , require the EV support package when pulling a permit for a simple addition, the fan will get very dirty. and HUGE expenses. Somethings ,like the transformer on the pole, are pricey !
 

lynnmor

Well-known member

Equipment
B2601-1
May 3, 2021
824
573
93
Red Lion
Ontario Homes Now Required to Support Level 2 Charging

Per the new requirements for detached, semidetached and row homes, each home must be equipped with a minimum 200A panel. This is significant, because prior to these new requirements, most homes had been equipped with the more affordable 100A panel. Homes must also have 27mm conduit leading to 220V, 30A outlet box installed in the garage or driveway.

Knew this was coming, sigh.....
Have a HUGE housing crisis and THIS is what the government demands....
New neighbour was dinged an extra $10K for the required 'upgrade'

The irony is that we're supposed to reduce our energy use ,yet they force up into $$$ 200 A service upgrades.

When the other shoe drops , require the EV support package when pulling a permit for a simple addition, the fan will get very dirty. and HUGE expenses. Somethings ,like the transformer on the pole, are pricey !
I added a 30A outlet for my RV, it wasn't much more than pocket change.
 

jimh406

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Lifetime Member

Equipment
Kubota L2501 with R4 tires
Jan 29, 2021
1,366
903
113
Western MT
I added a 30A outlet for my RV, it wasn't much more than pocket change.
I'll give you an address to send some pocket change, ok? :D. But, I agree not that expensive if you do it yourself.

If you have to upgrade your service, that's a different matter.