Electric Car in your future?

58Ford

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I am hoping these eventuate. Currently only concept apparently. But I like the look. If these get made I could see myself knocking around in one to hopefully offset the high gas prices everyone thinks are not going to reduce.

Alpha Motors in Irvine CA. They even plan a little pickup.

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DaveFromMi

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EV powered air travel. The future of aviation?
 

DustyRusty

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Possibly they can have a helicopter with a generator on board that can drop a power cord to the EV airplane. That way he can have inflight charging, like a lot of military airplanes.
On another note, I noticed that the local shopping center has just had about 30 electrical charging stations at one end of the parking lot. Guessing at the number, but it is the full length of the parking lot. Will have to check it out to see if there is a fee or are free of charge for the electricity.
 

Jchonline

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I would recommend you all join our TBN thread on EVs but you rowdy folks would probably get it shut down ;)

Seriously though....

1. Electric motors are more efficient at delivering equivalent power to a drivetrain than an ICE. This has been proven with extensive testing.
2. The power density of a lithium battery (0.3 MJ/kg) vs the equivalent weight of gasoline (46 MJ/kg) is over 100 times different. That means for 1 lb of gasoline we need 100 lb of battery. Sure the battery is rechargeable...but that doesnt matter with vehicles much. What matters is the extra weight, and how that impacts performance. With cargo applications it is much more dire...because everything is about payload. Higher payload = more profit.
3. It takes about 100,000 miles in an EV to be carbon neutral to an ICE. This is primarily due to the 500,000lbs of raw mining and processing required to make the batteries. They are nowhere close to carbon neutral.

So #1 is done (technologically superior. #2 is not even close. Lots more work to do on power sources before we can find a true replacement for ICE.
 
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Jchonline

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EV powered air travel. The future of aviation?

You go first....
 

Oil pan 4

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I have gas vehicles and I do not fill them with gas at my house. Few houses or apartments come with a gas pump. So like gas, you charge at a charging station before you get home.
Why a stable living environment ?
Once upon a time cars were for the rich only. Took Ford and a few others to bring them to masses.
I guess you don't know anything about chargers. The "free chargers" and typical at home chargers are any where from fairly slow to dreadfully slow. The fast chargers that come anywhere close to charging up an electric vehicle like filling up a gas powered car cost anywhere from 30 to 60 cents per kilowatt hour. That makes paying to charge your car cost as much if not more than gasoline.
Also cars need to be charged almost daily to a few times a week dependingon battery size and how much the person dirves.
I drive the hell out of mine, up to 1,800 miles per month when I'm really busy I'm charging constantly throughout the day at home or at my rental houses while I work on them, cut grass, ect.
 

Biker1mike

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I guess you don't know anything about chargers. The "free chargers" and typical at home chargers are any where from fairly slow to dreadfully slow. The fast chargers that come anywhere close to charging up an electric vehicle like filling up a gas powered car cost anywhere from 30 to 60 cents per kilowatt hour. That makes paying to charge your car cost as much if not more than gasoline.
Also cars need to be charged almost daily to a few times a week dependingon battery size and how much the person dirves.
I drive the hell out of mine, up to 1,800 miles per month when I'm really busy I'm charging constantly throughout the day at home or at my rental houses while I work on them, cut grass, ect.
60 percent of the US population own a home. 90+ percent of the us population own or have access to a car. IF EVs are to be taken seriously the infrastructure has to change to meet these figures.
One would think that with demand the cost of fast charging would come down. Given present gas prices this does not look likely.
 

Jchonline

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60 percent of the US population own a home. 90+ percent of the us population own or have access to a car. IF EVs are to be taken seriously the infrastructure has to change to meet these figures.
One would think that with demand the cost of fast charging would come down. Given present gas prices this does not look likely.

It costs about $1 million to build a fast charging station. Unfortunately gas stations that have put them in are being "surge" charged for electricity by the utility companies, making it way more expensive. Many have threatened to disable the charging stations if accommodations are not made. Apparently the way the agreements work (in some cases) is the owner of the gas station has to pay for the electricity costs, and they get a portion of sales.
 

jimh406

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Like most green energy, electric cars seem to take a lot of green. I can't say it wouldn't be fun to have a 1000HP vehicle, but the cost doesn't make it anywhere near reasonable. I'd buy a plane first.
 

Oil pan 4

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60 percent of the US population own a home. 90+ percent of the us population own or have access to a car. IF EVs are to be taken seriously the infrastructure has to change to meet these figures.
One would think that with demand the cost of fast charging would come down. Given present gas prices this does not look likely.
Nope, it's only been going up. Tesla used to give free fast charging, it was free until they decided to cut it off and that's long gone unless you get a new tesla. Then it might come with free fast charging but only for a year or 2.
Municipalities and stores have a free slow chargers, but those are really slow.
Municipalities seem to have a lot of broken chargers both free slow chargers and paid to use rapid charger.
I don't have any public chargers around here and I get along great just fine.
 
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aaluck

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Its one thing to charge your vehicle in your garage or carport. Its another in cities. How do these idiots suggest we handle this times 10,000 for just one city? 400 chargers on a city block?

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Oil pan 4

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How to add 400 charger per city block on buildings that likely have obsolete or over loaded panels?
And that's why I don't live in the city, they can have fun with that one.
 

Vigo

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I suggest you watch the video above your post.
I've seen it before. I don't think it obviates any of my points and i think it reinforces some of them.

For one thing, considering 'cradle to grave' emissions is essentially a straw man. Noone believes in it because noone applies it to anything else about cars in general. What is the co2 burden of creating an 8000lb f250 vs a 2200lb Mitsubishi Mirage? Would anyone like to give up their King Ranch and get into a shiny new Mirage? The graphs are talking about 100,000 miles, 200,000 miles.. Hmm! What if we just, drove less! Noone wants to talk about any of the other low hanging fruit when you talk about cradle to grave. It's explicitly marched out by those in opposition to EVs, and then not applied to ANY other aspect of ANY other car, in their own lives or anyone elses.

Cradle to grave responsibility means the price of EVERYTHING goes up. Are you cool with not getting plastic bags at a grocery store, or straws with your drinks? Nobody is for cradle to grave accounting because noone wants to pay anything extra for anything they already do, or lose access to anything they already have access to. It's only used to argue against things that require other people to pay, or other people to change, or other people to narrow their possibilities etc. The second we apply cradle to grave in a universal way, it'll be a reckoning day for all of us. Everything would have to change.

Light transportation in general is a scapegoat in the whole climate change issue. Light transportation is targeted for ONE reason: Lack of organized resistance. If you target a $1000/ea fee at 10 million machines owned by 10 people who are wealthy enough to own 10 million machines, you will get massive, well-funded, orchestrated resistance. You will probably lose your job, and depending on who the 10 people are, you may even disappear. Those guys will do pretty much anything to avoid losing 10 billion dollars. If you target a 1000/ea fee at 10 million machines owned by 10 million separate people, you will get essentially no resistance because damn near every one of them will bend over and fork out $1000 before they organize sufficiently to 'out-influence' the 10 rich guys and their lobbyists. This is how light transportation came to have so much emissions regulation, equipment and technology in place, when other gross polluting industries didn't. Because generations of car owners failed to argue to regulate industry, and instead willingly bent over and paid for regulations on themselves. Shit rolls downhill and industry shifted the cost of emissions to the lowest man on the totem pole who couldn't effectively fight back. That's US, guys.

And now some of the same people sitting on gas cars that are already 99% cleaned up, cleaned up by forces they can take no credit for, unwittingly paid a LOT of money for, and had essentially no power to oppose anyway, are comparing the cleanliness of gas cars NOW, after all that, to EVs as if it's apples to apples and it's not. Gas cars are clean NOW because the people buying them have spent decades losing the fight of who is to blame for 'emissions', and paying out the ass to improve those gas cars to the point that they can now 'arguably', maybe have less lifetime emissions than some hybrids or EVs, which are in their relative infancy and have essentially NO equivalent efficiency or emissions standards to aspire to! If we squeezed EVs for 50 years the way we've squeezed gas cars, they'd probably end up running DIRECTLY ON Co2 and skipping powerplants entirely. Maybe if we'd started squeezing 30-40 years ago, we'd practically be there by now! It was barely over 50 years ago gas engines were using 'puke tubes' to direct their crankcase emissions at the ground, because heck if it landed there and you kept moving, it wasn't your problem right. :) Now you can lock yourself in your garage with your 2022 Camry running and die of boredom before the car runs out of gas. When they open it up the smelliest part of that garage will be you.

So there's nothing intrinsic to either gas or EV that leads to how they 'stack up' in these emissions comparisons. EVERYTHING about it is down to how each thing has been treated in the past. The current result is a reflection of the past. If we change how we treat them, we change the trajectory. But blaming the current positions on the rankings on anything but ourselves, is disingenuous. It's not intrinsic to the materials or the technology. The materials and the technology are where they are in 2022, because of all the policies and regulations we presided over, for the past decades. If we don't try harder, things won't get better. If we don't force money to be invested to develop the new technology by regulating that it has to be implemented whether it's perfect or not, it will not be developed further at anything but a snail's pace. Early catalytic converters were a fucking joke. Guess what, we mandated things anyway, regular people paid out the ass for shit products that made their cars run worse, and now they're great and noone cares that they sucked in 1972. If we hang the fortunes of large companies and very wealthy people on somehow making sure EVs have less lifetime emissions than gas cars, we'd be foolish to bet that it wouldn't work. They'll make it happen, because they'll have proper accounting of what it will cost to fail. Unlike us. We'll just pay the $1000 to make the next gas car 0.1% cleaner, and turn around and shit talk EVs for free.
 
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jimh406

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So there's nothing intrinsic to either gas or EV that leads to how they 'stack up' in these emissions comparisons.
There isn't anything inherently good about electric cars with respect to the environment. The waste products will be on earth forever. Not to mention you are financing the countries that horrible environmental records. Who knows what they will do with that waste. They don't follow the rules we do. And, of course, most of our electricity is coming from fossil fuels which also has pollutants, and likely more than vehicles.

As you noted, emissions for vehicles made in the past few years isn't that significant in the US. It's nothing like 60s-70s (50 years ago).

Regarding forcing emissions before they were ready. That's why people have really negative opinions about many of them especially DPFs.
 

aaluck

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Hmm! What if we just, drove less! Noone wants to talk about any of the other low hanging fruit when you talk about cradle to grave.
You actually make a very impressive, well thought out, argument. The problem I have with it is, the "problem" we are facing is non-existent. It has been created by, ironically, the biggest offenders. How do you take a "problem" seriously when the meetings to discuss this "problem" are attended by folks that create more carbon emissions flying in a private jet, than all the vehicles I will ever own put together. (Talk about low hanging fruit).

According to these same scientists, 600 million years ago the earth was covered in ice. That means the warmest spot on earth was below freezing. The industrial revolution began in about 1780--242 years ago. Am I to believe that we have created this warming in just the past 240 years when the earth warmed itself up 100s of degrees all on its own? Ill even admit that maybe we do have an impact by our actions, but nothing in comparison to what the earth has done, and will continue to do, on its own.

These folks are also the same ones telling us that cow farts are a huge problem and we need to eat bugs instead. They are the same folks telling us we evolved from nothing into humans. If so, is evolving to a one degree temperature change every 100 years a real problem. The tiny, tiny impact we have on the temperature is not an issue, never has been and never will be.
 

GreensvilleJay

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city block charging is actually quite easy. You just use an 'upsized' version of your smart phone wireless charging (Qi -' chee' ) technology. They have them for E-buses at bus stops. When you park over the charger, it asks you 'do you want to charge', say yes, and battery magically gets electrons while your bank account is reduced. Noe GETTING drivers to park properly..THAT is the real challenge.