B7100 with FEL Hydro Block question (3pt. Problems)

[Paranorm]

hello everyone.
i bei bought a used B7100 with an FEL..
IT started, that the 3pt. didn t move Up only without load and helping hands.
Long Story Short..
After useing search i changed Fluid and Filter. Cleaned the 2 Side Filters left n right.
And changed the O ring in the Hydraulik cylinder in the Back of the 3pt.

Now or moves with a little load to the top but with me on it would t move Up...

The screw for the Speed folrom the 3pt is adjusted and the handle under the Seat is also in the right Position (Arrow faceing to the left when younsit in the Seat).

Now i m in the way to Upgrade/replace the Hydro Pump and in that Case i m think about to Change the Hydro distribution Blocks...
I think the owner before massed a little bit
around...
I m Not a pro in Hydro but i can Figure it Out that it IS very unusual solved...

Question:
Do you Pictures of your hydraulic that i can Check what i need and what Not?

I have a FEL with the 3 BG3 connector on the top Front.
The 3pt fies from the inner Block Back
And there are 2 hoses going Back for some extra stuff on also in BG3 connectors.
My Plan was buying this https://hydrotechnik24.de/steuerven...uyJ1ODzshxh0bXcfXxkFClGAgUPX642AaAoPYEALw_wcB

And Connect the FEL on 2 of the groups. The Last is for the 2 lines in the Back and the 3pt is going over the forwarding Output.

If some question are Open ASK
Is that right?
Could you Help me with my Problem?
Best regards
Para

 

[TheOldHokie]

hello everyone.
i bei bought a used B7100 with an FEL..
IT started, that the 3pt. didn t move Up only without load and helping hands.
Long Story Shirt..
After useing search i changed Fluid and Filter. Cleaned the 2 Side Filters left n right.
And changed the O ring in the Hydraulik cylinder in the Back of the 3pt.

Now or moves with a little load to the top but with me on it would t move Up...

The screw for the Speed fornthe 3pt is adjusted and the handle unser the Seat is also in the right Position (Arrow faceing to the left when younsit in the Seat).

Now i m in the way to Upgrade/replace the Hydro Pump and in that Case i m think about to Change the Hydro distribution Blocks...
I think the owner before massed a little bit
around...
I m Not a pro in Hydro but i can Figure it Out that it IS very unusual solved...

Question:
Do you Pictures of your hydraulic that i can Check what i need and what Not?

I have a FEL with the 3 BG3 connector on the top Front.
The 3pt fies from the inner Block Back
And there are 2 hoses going Back for some extra stuff on also in BG3 connectors.
My Plan was buying this https://hydrotechnik24.de/steuerven...uyJ1ODzshxh0bXcfXxkFClGAgUPX642AaAoPYEALw_wcB

And Connect the FEL on 2 of the groups. The Last is for the 2 lines in the Back and the 3pt is going over the forwarding Output.

If some question are Open ASK
Is that right?
Could you Help me with my Problem?
Best regards
Para

If i understand you correctly you intend to replace the loader hydraulic control valve in the hope it fixes the 3pt lift problem. Its not clear how your current valve is plumbed. Where does it connect to the tractor? There should be two hoses going to a rectangular block on the steel pipe coming from the pump.

Dan

 

[Paranorm]

If i understand you correctly you intend to replace the loader hydraulic control valve in the hope it fixes the 3pt lift problem. Its not clear how your current valve is plumbed. Where does it connect to the tractor? There should be two hoses going to a rectangular block on the steel pipe coming from the pump.

Dan

Hey dan...
Probably i would have the Problem with the hinch fixes...
My opinion the 2 Blockes Look very messy...
So i Hope iT will be fixed with the new Pump or with the new reduced cleaned hydraulic Control Block...

Ich werde heute einen Schaltplan erstellen und ihn hochladen ...

Know i got it.
See Block diagram below...
i m Not a good drawer But that it is how it is connected.
i think it is useing the right In and Out of the blocks, But i m Not Sure... AS i m a newbie in that part.

best regards
Mike

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You can not have Tee's in the pressure line.
It must be a loop!

Look at these sketch's

This is the original build without added valves:

This is adding the 2 spool valves in a simple fashion with an adapter block.

This is adding the 2 spool valves in a simple fashion without an adapter block.

This is the best way to hook it up:
Requires both valves to have Power, Power beyond, and Tank ports.

 

[torch]

What Wolfman said. Plus, it must be using open center spool valves. Tee configurations are used with closed center valves, which makes me suspicious that your FEL and rear remote valves are closed center. The Kubota hydraulic pump is not compatible with a closed center system.

 

[Paranorm]

Was Wolfmann gesagt hat. Außerdem müssen Open-Center-Steuerventile verwendet werden. T-Konfigurationen werden mit Closed-Center-Ventilen verwendet, was mich misstrauisch macht, dass Ihre FEL- und hinteren Fernsteuerventile Closed-Center sind. Die Kubota-Hydraulikpumpe ist nicht mit einem Closed-Center-System kompatibel.

Thx you two

Therefore I want to get rid of the installation I know ...
I don't know what spool valves are, one way? Two ways?
And the Ts and plumbing stuff isn't a clean fix either.

Unfortunately I only have a normal Kubota block with a P-input and an output. I don't think it's that easy to find an adapter in Europe....

the idea of getting a new control block with 3 x 2-way valves.

2 are for the FEL and the last one for remote....
3pt. Comes on N ( the Power distribution Hope iT is written Like that)
Connection would be:
From Kubota block to P from valve block,
FEL on A1,B1 A2 (I have 3 cylinders 1 for shovel and 2 for lifting, lowering) operated via joystick. A3, B3 for remote control and T to tank


Is that right?

 

[torch]

Obviously English is not your first language. That's OK, you are doing better than I could. I will try to be as complete as possible with lots of pictures to avoid confusion.

Spool valves are the plungers that control the direction of fluid flow inside the controls. Your diagram shows 3 spool valves in one control assembly (I think this is what you are calling a "block"?), numbered 1, 2, and 3, with 3 at the top of the drawing. It also has a relief valve shown at the bottom:

The spool valves shown are 2 way, with an open center and are drawn as if the lever is in the middle position. When no levers are operated, fluid flows freely through the open centers from P1/P2 to T1/T2. All the A ports and all the B ports are closed, so no fluid flows out to any cylinders and very little pressure builds up (this is very important -- I will talk more about this later).

If spool valve #1 is moved to the right, then the passages shown as "1" on the left side line up with the passages in the casting, so the spool blocks off the center (no fluid flows to spools 2 or 3), the passages in the spool direct flow from P1/P2 to B1 and fluid from A1 to T1/T2. Pressure in the system starts to rise as whatever is attached to B1 starts to do work. For example, the loader begins to lift a load.

However, if spool valve #1 is moved to the left, the crossed passages in the spool reverse the flow to the ports -- flow from P1/P2 is sent to A1 and fluid from B1 is sent to T1/T2 instead:

As the pressure builds up, fluid starts pressing the relief valve against the adjustable spring. When the pressure builds to the maximum safe pressure, it overcomes the spring pressure and releases fluid directly from P1/P2 to T1/T2. Adjusting the spring adjusts the maximum pressure on the system:

This would be all you need -- IF it was all you had. However, you need to provide fluid to other things too, like the 3 point hitch. This is a problem. If you connect the next control with a tee to P1/P2, then you will never get any pressure, since the open center dumps the fluid to the tank. If you connect the next control to T1/T2, then you lose the protection of the relief valve, since it no longer dumps fluid to the tank.

What you need to do is convert the T2 port into a PB (Power Beyond) port with an adapter cartridge that separates T1 from T2. Not all controls are convertible, make sure you buy one that is:

Some brands are slightly different. Reflecting Dan's comments about your specific brand:

What you need to do is convert the N port into a PB (Power Beyond) port with an adapter cartridge that separates N from T1/T2. Not all controls are convertible, make sure you buy one that is:

Using Power Beyond, you can chain together as many other control valve assemblies as you want, like Wolfman showed in his last diagram. The tractor pump connects to the P1 or P2 port of the first control assembly. The PB port connects to the P1 or P2 port of the next control valve assembly -- and so on until the PB port of the last control valve assembly connects to the 3 Point Hitch. All the T ports connect together and return to the transmission through the fill port:

Wolfman mentions the "Hydraulic Block". This is a rectangular metal cover in the line from the pump, beside the fuel filter on the right hand side of the engine. Kubota provided it to allow connection to the tractor hydraulic system. It looks like this:

If you remove the cover, you can see it just connects the pump side to the 3PH side:

To connect into the tractor hydraulic system, the cover is replaced with one that diverts the flow instead. Here is the schematic from the Kubota Factory Workshop Manual (WSM):

Here it is the diverter cover installed:

HOWEVER!!!!

Not all B7100 versions have the hydraulic block! Very early versions just had a pipe straight from the pump to the 3PH. To connect to the tractor hydraulic system, the pipe must be cut and re-routed from the pump side to the added hydraulics. The final PB port is routed to the other side of the cut pipe, which goes to the 3PH. I can't see the hydraulic block in any of your photos, so you may have one of the earlier models.

If you have the diverter already, great. If you need a diverter, you can make one from aluminium or steel according to the dimensions shown above. If you can't make your own, see this thread: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...ck-diverter-70060-00360-or-70070-00385.56471/

 

[TheOldHokie]

Obviously English is not your first language. That's OK, you are doing better than I could. I will try to be as complete as possible with lots of pictures to avoid confusion.

Spool valves are the plungers that control the direction of fluid flow inside the controls. Your diagram shows 3 spool valves in one control assembly (I think this is what you are calling a "block"?), numbered 1, 2, and 3, with 3 at the top of the drawing. It also has a relief valve shown at the bottom:

The spool valves shown are 2 way, with an open center and are drawn as if the lever is in the middle position. When no levers are operated, fluid flows freely through the open centers from P1/P2 to T1/T2. All the A ports and all the B ports are closed, so no fluid flows out to any cylinders and very little pressure builds up (this is very important -- I will talk more about this later).

If spool valve #1 is moved to the right, then the passages shown as "1" on the left side line up with the passages in the casting, so the spool blocks off the center (no fluid flows to spools 2 or 3), the passages in the spool direct flow from P1/P2 to B1 and fluid from A1 to T1/T2. Pressure in the system starts to rise as whatever is attached to B1 starts to do work. For example, the loader begins to lift a load.

However, if spool valve #1 is moved to the left, the crossed passages in the spool reverse the flow to the ports -- flow from P1/P2 is sent to A1 and fluid from B1 is sent to T1/T2 instead:

As the pressure builds up, fluid starts pressing the relief valve against the adjustable spring. When the pressure builds to the maximum safe pressure, it overcomes the spring pressure and releases fluid directly from P1/P2 to T1/T2. Adjusting the spring adjusts the maximum pressure on the system:

This would be all you need -- IF it was all you had. However, you need to provide fluid to other things too, like the 3 point hitch. This is a problem. If you connect the next control with a tee to P1/P2, then you will never get any pressure, since the open center dumps the fluid to the tank. If you connect the next control to T1/T2, then you lose the protection of the relief valve, since it no longer dumps fluid to the tank.

What you need to do is convert the T2 port into a PB (Power Beyond) port with an adapter cartridge that separates T1 from T2. Not all controls are convertible, make sure you buy one that is:

Using Power Beyond, you can chain together as many other control valve assemblies as you want, like Wolfman showed in his last diagram. The tractor pump connects to the P1 or P2 port of the first control assembly. The PB port connects to the P1 or P2 port of the next control valve assembly -- and so on until the PB port of the last control valve assembly connects to the 3 Point Hitch.

Wolfman mentions the "Hydraulic Block". This is a rectangular metal cover in the line from the pump, beside the fuel filter on the right hand side of the engine. Kubota provided it to allow connection to the tractor hydraulic system. It looks like this:

If you remove the cover, you can see it just connects the pump side to the 3PH side:

To connect into the tractor hydraulic system, the cover is replaced with one that diverts the flow instead. Here is the schematic from the Kubota Factory Workshop Manual (WSM):

HOWEVER!!!!

Not all B7100 versions have the hydraulic block! Very early versions just had a pipe straight from the pump to the 3PH. To connect to the tractor hydraulic system, the pipe must be cut and re-routed from the pump side to the added hydraulics. The final PB port is routed to the other side of the cut pipe, which goes to the 3PH. I can't see the hydraulic block in any of your photos, so you may have one of the earlier models.

If you have the diverter already, great. If you need a diverter, you can make one from aluminium or steel according to the dimensions shown above. If you can't make your own, see this thread: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...ck-diverter-70060-00360-or-70070-00385.56471/

Just one thing - those schematics show the valve already converted to power beyond. The Badenost valves will come labeled with one N and two T ports which are all connected together for open center operation. You convert it to the power beyond operation shown in the schematics by installing a conversion sleeve in the N port. That leaves you with two tank ports. You can use either one or both as tank returns depending on what you need in the way of connections.

I suspect your current plumbing is using the under seat takeoff rather than the diverter block in the pump supply pipe.

Dan

 

[torch]

Just one thing - those schematics show the valve already converted to power beyond.

The schematics show T1, T2 and N connected together. But I see how this brand is slightly different than some others. I edited my post above to reflect your comments. Does that look right now?

 

[TheOldHokie]

The schematics show T1, T2 and N connected together. But I see how this brand is slightly different than some others. I edited my post above to reflect your comments. Does that look right now?

I had to go to a real computer to see those images clearly. The original diagram did have them all connected but your revision is not correct. With the power beyond sleeve installed in the N port it becomes the power beyond port and T1 and T2 remain conneced.

Badestnost Hydraulic is just one of many OEMS for the "P40" valves and they all have this same basic configuration. See my revised schematic below.

Dan

 

[Paranorm]

Thank you Guys.

And yes your 'r right, it is Not my mothertounge and the my Keyboard also Change some Word.. i hate that .

Now i know the Principe function of the Control assy. And yes that is what i mention AS a Block.
I also have the normal blue Hydro Block from Kubota it self, but only in the normal Version.
Pressure in from pump and pressure Out to (normal 3pt hinch) now the Things with the Ts and Control assy.

The Control assy i was mention with the schematic from badenost hast the ability to use it serial in a system.

Possibility of serial connection to the existing system (compression sleeve required)

Copy from Homepage and translated it...

So it should Work Putting the sleeve in an Go to the hinch with that Line.

I have to Check my FEL and the cylinder and there function...
Because i ve 3 Ports 2 of them are going in A1 and B1 and the Last in B2 A2 is Connect with the Tank Line.....

So my guessing was, the 1 section are the Lifting cylinders and B2 is the shovel...

Thanks alot for the afford and your Knowhow...

Mike

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thank you Guys.

And yes your 'r right, it is Not my mothertounge and the my Keyboard also Change some Word.. i hate that .

Now i know the Principe function of the Control assy. And yes that is what i mention AS a Block.
I also have the normal blue Hydro Block from Kubota it self, but only in the normal Version.
Pressure in from pump and pressure Out to (normal 3pt hinch) now the Things with the Ts and Control assy.

The Control assy i was mention with the schematic from badenost hast the ability to use it serial in a system.

Possibility of serial connection to the existing system (compression sleeve required)

Copy from Homepage and translated it...

So it should Work Putting the sleeve in an Go to the hinch with that Line.

I have to Check my FEL and the cylinder and there function...
Because i ve 3 Ports 2 of them are going in A1 and B1 and the Last in B2 A2 is Connect with the Tank Line.....

So my guessing was, the 1 section are the Lifting cylinders and B2 is the shovel...

Thanks alot for the afford and your Knowhow...

Mike

That valve will work fine but you need the optional high pressure carry over (power beyond) sleeve for the N port.. If one or more work ports on your current valve are connected to the tank line it sounds like the cylinders are single acting.

Dan

 

[torch]

I had to go to a real computer to see those images clearly. The original diagram did have them all connected but your revision is not correct. With the power beyond sleeve installed in the N port it becomes the power beyond port and T1 and T2 remain conneced.

Badestnost Hydraulic is just one of many OEMS for the "P40" valves and they all have this same basic configuration. See my revised schematic below.

Dan

View attachment 76757

Ok, that's strange. My edits got lost. I've restored the edits and my sketch matches yours now.

 

[torch]

Single acting cylinders only have one hose, usually to extend the cylinder. They retract under gravity. Like a hydraulic jack.

Double acting cylinders have two hoses -- one to extend and one to retract. They are powered in both directions.

As Dan said, you can run a single-acting cylinder from a double acting spool valve by piping the unused port to the tank return line. Some people might also simply plug the unused port, but then you are relying on the relief valve to dump the excess fluid.

 

[torch]

I also have the normal blue Hydro Block from Kubota it self, but only in the normal Version.
Pressure in from pump and pressure Out to (normal 3pt hinch) now the Things with the Ts and Control assy.

Ok, so where is the system connecting to the tractor hydraulic system? Did they cut the pipe after the hydraulic block and install a T fitting? Is that what we are seeing in this picture?

Where does the system connect back to the 3PH? To the cut piping or to the valve under the front of the seat?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Ok, so where is the system connecting to the tractor hydraulic system? Did they cut the pipe after the hydraulic block and install a T fitting? Is that what we are seeing in this picture?

Where does the system connect back to the 3PH? To the cut piping or to the valve under the front of the seat?

In his first post he talked about the outlet under the seat. Thats my guess.

Dan

 

[Paranorm]

Now i know were my stupid thinking was in Case of the FEL A1 and B1 is connected to the shovel because that is a 2way cylinder..
And B2 are the 2 Lifting cylinders...
Now it make sence, when you move Joystick left A1 gets pressured and the shovel move Up.
Joystick right B1 gets pressured and shovel move down..
Joystick up shovel gets lifted B2 gets pressured and
Joystick down A2 is connected to T and with weight ans Gravity the shovel move down...


Thanks alot .

And If it really workes with that sleeve to get the Control assy Block the N to a PB,
I will route it AS mention...

From Hydro Block (blue Kubota one) to
P from assy.
FEL shovel A1 / B1
Lifting from the FEL A2; B2 to T.
The external 2 lines i have in the Back (i think for a hydraulic Wood Cracker or Something Like that) A3 / B3.
And the 3pt hinch to PB (with sleeve in the N Port).

So the function is:

If nothing is used
The full pressure is at the 3pt.
If one of the 3 valves are used, the one which is used gets the full pressure, the Rest None.

M i right?

And also one question..
I didn t find the value die the pressure in the WSM but there is Something written Like
Checking Relief valve Set pressure..
And that is 1710 Psi...
So ist that the max pressure in the whole system?


Mike

 

[Paranorm]

Ok, so where is the system connecting to the tractor hydraulic system? Did they cut the pipe after the hydraulic block and install a T fitting? Is that what we are seeing in this picture?

Where does the system connect back to the 3PH? To the cut piping or to the valve under the front of the seat?

Here i Made some new Pictures


Hope iT is clear....

And I don't Know how the "Normal" assy is Wirkung but you can See, that the pressure Line goes on the right in....
The 3pt is on the bottom connected...
And the Top goes directly Back to the Tank (there is also the T from the FEL assy, the Back T and the unsued Port from the Lifting section)

So If there is no pysically Separation in that section it is clear that i have No pressure in the 3pt, If everything goes right Back in the Tank.

Under the Seat there is nothing connected to that Exit from the Take Off circuit

 

[torch]

And B2 are the 2 Lifting cylinders...

Later on you say that pulling the joystick down lowers the arms? That is backwards to most machines. Usually pulling the joystick down raises the arms and lifting it up lowers them -- as if they were the opposite end of a giant lever.

Lifting from the FEL A2; B2 to T.

This should make it standard and lift when the joystick is pulled down.

Now it make sence, when you move Joystick left A1 gets pressured and the shovel move Up.

In English, we call that big shovel a bucket and say "the bucket curls up". But English doesn't make a lot of sense sometimes. I know what you mean -- the lifting arms stay where they are, and the thing on the front tips back to hold the dirt, right?

Joystick right B1 gets pressured and shovel move down.

In English, this is "bucket dumps". The thing on the front tips forward and all the dirt falls out.

From Hydro Block (blue Kubota one) to
P from assy.
FEL shovel A1 / B1
Lifting from the FEL A2; B2 to T.
The external 2 lines i have in the Back (i think for a hydraulic Wood Cracker or Something Like that) A3 / B3.
And the 3pt hinch to PB (with sleeve in the N Port).

You`ve got it!

So the function is:

If nothing is used
The full pressure is at the 3pt.
If one of the 3 valves are used, the one which is used gets the full pressure, the Rest None.

Technically, there is almost no pressure anywhere until a control lever is moved. But yes, full pressure is available to the 3PH if nothing else is used, and when you pull the 3PH control lever backwards, the pressure will rise in the system until the relief valve setting is reached -- either the load is too heavy or the cylinder is fully extended. The B7100 can easily lift a 200 kilogram implement on the 3PH.

One word of caution: If the 3PH lever is pulled back to lift something higher at the same time as another function is being used (eg: raising the arms), the 3PH will come crashing down to the ground, because no pressure is available when other things are in use. Fluid is available in the order of the control valve assemblies. Closest to the pump wins.

And also one question..
I didn t find the value die the pressure in the WSM but there is Something written Like
Checking Relief valve Set pressure..
And that is 1710 Psi...
So ist that the max pressure in the whole system?

The maximum pressure at the 3PH is the lowest setting of any relief valve. Again, the closest to the pump wins.

Let us say that the 3ph relief valve is set to 1710psi, but the FEL relief valve is set to 2000 psi. Then the pressure available at the 3PH is 1710psi and the pressure available to the FEL is 2000psi. However, if the relief valve at the FEL is set to 1600psi, then the maximum pressure available to anything is 1600psi because that is the first relief valve in the series.

 

[Paranorm]

Later on you say that pulling the joystick down lowers the arms? That is backwards to most machines. Usually pulling the joystick down raises the arms and lifting it up lowers them -- as if they were the opposite end of a giant lever.



This should make it standard and lift when the joystick is pulled down.



In English, we call that big shovel a bucket and say "the bucket curls up". But English doesn't make a lot of sense sometimes. I know what you mean -- the lifting arms stay where they are, and the thing on the front tips back to hold the dirt, right?



In English, this is "bucket dumps". The thing on the front tips forward and all the dirt falls out.



You`ve got it!



Technically, there is almost no pressure anywhere until a control lever is moved. But yes, full pressure is available to the 3PH if nothing else is used, and when you pull the 3PH control lever backwards, the pressure will rise in the system until the relief valve setting is reached -- either the load is too heavy or the cylinder is fully extended. The B7100 can easily lift a 200 kilogram implement on the 3PH.

One word of caution: If the 3PH lever is pulled back to lift something higher at the same time as another function is being used (eg: raising the arms), the 3PH will come crashing down to the ground, because no pressure is available when other things are in use. Fluid is available in the order of the control valve assemblies. Closest to the pump wins.



The maximum pressure at the 3PH is the lowest setting of any relief valve. Again, the closest to the pump wins.

Let us say that the 3ph relief valve is set to 1710psi, but the FEL relief valve is set to 2000 psi. Then the pressure available at the 3PH is 1710psi and the pressure available to the FEL is 2000psi. However, if the relief valve at the FEL is set to 1600psi, then the maximum pressure available to anything is 1600psi because that is the first relief valve in the series.

Thank you.
I got it now...
Which is the Lifting Port from the bucket and which the lowering... I Don t have in mind, loader is unplugged and somewhere...

And with the pressure, that it will decrease a little bit on every Station, is clear.
Also that the weakest setting of the overload valve is important.
In my Case the one from the hinch (1710) because the new assy for the FEL will have it Set at round about 2538...

And that i only can use one section only, is also clear.. (First come First Serve) and it IS no Problem for me, i will either use the hinch, or the FEL or maybe in the Future the 2external in the Back....

Thanks again...
And so I will Invest the 300 Bugs for the new Control assy and all new hoses...

If i m changing all the Rubber hoses, i can Set the Dimension of the Diameter by my self... Right?
Are there Any Suggestion for the Dimension?
I know that If they are getting bigger, the can hold less pressure.

Im thinking about to Take D10 (with M18) or D12 (with M22) or should i use smaller one?
For example a D10 M18...

So much knowledge you all have....
Thanks again