B7100 with FEL Hydro Block question (3pt. Problems)

TheOldHokie

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Thank you.
I got it now...
Which is the Lifting Port from the bucket and which the lowering... I Don t have in mind, loader is unplugged and somewhere... 😉

And with the pressure, that it will decrease a little bit on every Station, is clear.
Also that the weakest setting of the overload valve is important.
In my Case the one from the hinch (1710) because the new assy for the FEL will have it Set at round about 2538...

And that i only can use one section only, is also clear.. (First come First Serve) and it IS no Problem for me, i will either use the hinch, or the FEL or maybe in the Future the 2external in the Back....

Thanks again...
And so I will Invest the 300 Bugs for the new Control assy and all new hoses...

If i m changing all the Rubber hoses, i can Set the Dimension of the Diameter by my self... Right?
Are there Any Suggestion for the Dimension?
I know that If they are getting bigger, the can hold less pressure.

Im thinking about to Take D10 (with M18) or D12 (with M22) or should i use smaller one?
For example a D10 M18...
View attachment 76791



So much knowledge you all have....
Thanks again 👍
Your tractor system has a maximum flow rate of roughly 15 liters per minutes (4 US gallons per minute). 10mm (US 3/8") hose is more than adequate. Larger hoses and fittings will buy you nothing and complicate routing and assembly.

Dan
 
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Paranorm

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Kubota F3680/GCD900F/RCK72; B7100
Mar 18, 2022
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Lower Austria
Your tractor system has a maximum flow rate of roughly 15 liters per minutes (4 US gallons per minute). 10mm (US 3/8") hose is more than adequate. Larger hoses and fittings will buy you nothing and complicate routing and assembly.

Dan
Perfect thank you
So i will stay with the 10mm hoses...
And I have put the 6gsm Pump in, thx to that Forum....
 

torch

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B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
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Muskoka, Ont.
Yeah, I'm the one that documented the pump change in this forum and I measured the performance by timing the lift speed over 4 complete cycles and calculating the cylinder volume. The original pump was putting out 3 USGPM at full throttle, the "6 usgpm" pump was only about 20 or 25% faster. Better, yes, but not 6USGPM.

The diameter of the hoses does not affect the pressure (PSI or KPa) at all. It affects the flow rate (GPM or LPM). Like I tell the new recruits at work: small fire, small hose. Big fire, big hose. :D

Pressure is limited by the construction type - single reinforcing wire hoses can handle the pressures of a small tractor, 2 wire hoses more pressure, 4 wire hoses lots and lots of pressure. Look at the pressure rating printed on the hose and use that for guidance. Remember that higher pressure hoses are stiffer hoses, so more is not always better!

I used 3/8" (~10mm) 2-wire hoses for the pressure lines (Pump, PB and cylinders). They are rated 4,000psi and probably overkill. But they were available in complete assemblies at my local farm supply store and cheaper than buying separate 1-wire hose and fittings from the local hydraulic repair shop. I used 1/2" (~12mm) 1-wire for the tank line. Some experts recommend 1 size larger hose for the tank line, others say it does not make much difference and is not worth the extra expense. Smaller diameter hose is certainly easier to handle and accepts tighter bends, but then, the tank hose(s) do not have to be high pressure hoses, and low pressure hose takes tighter bends.

The relief valve in your new assembly should be adjusted to suit your tractor's designed maximum. Kubota designed the system to safely handle about 1700 psi. The pressure affects more than just the valves, hoses and cylinders. Higher pressures cause more force on things like the pump drive mechanism. The lifting capacity will increase, meaning you might accidentally lift more weight than the front axle can support.

I can't find a number for the lifting capacity of the tractor itself, but the lifting capacity of the B219 loader Kubota made for this tractor was about 500 pounds (~225kg).
Using a calculator like this online tool, you can calculate the raw lifting force of your FEL cylinders.

Let us say that your cylinders are 1.5", with 1" diameter rods. And let us say that your cylinders attach half-way between the bucket and the support posts at a 10° angle from horizontal. The fulcrum of the lever supports twice the force of the load at the end of the lever, but you have two cylinders, so force = force x 2 / 2. At 1710 PSI, your system could lift 525 lbs (238kg), including the weight of the bucket, cylinders and arms. But at 2536 PSI, that jumps to 779 lbs (354 kg)!

Of course, you need to take your own measurements. Changing one small thing can make a big difference. For example, if the cylinders are 2" instead of 1.5", the lifting force almost doubles. If the cylinder angle is 20° the lifting force more than doubles.

Even the distance the FEL sticks out in front of the tractor affects how much load is put on the front axle. The B219 loader is 514mm from the center of the front axle to the center of the pin at the end of the arms. If your loader is bigger and sticks out further, it will put more strain on the front axle when lifting.

For all these reasons, I strongly recommend you adjust the new relief valve to suit your tractor and FEL. Don't just leave it at the default setting.
 

TheOldHokie

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Yeah, I'm the one that documented the pump change in this forum and I measured the performance by timing the lift speed over 4 complete cycles and calculating the cylinder volume. The original pump was putting out 3 USGPM at full throttle, the "6 usgpm" pump was only about 20 or 25% faster. Better, yes, but not 6USGPM.

The diameter of the hoses does not affect the pressure (PSI or KPa) at all. It affects the flow rate (GPM or LPM). Like I tell the new recruits at work: small fire, small hose. Big fire, big hose. :D

Pressure is limited by the construction type - single reinforcing wire hoses can handle the pressures of a small tractor, 2 wire hoses more pressure, 4 wire hoses lots and lots of pressure. Look at the pressure rating printed on the hose and use that for guidance. Remember that higher pressure hoses are stiffer hoses, so more is not always better!

I used 3/8" (~10mm) 2-wire hoses for the pressure lines (Pump, PB and cylinders). They are rated 4,000psi and probably overkill. But they were available in complete assemblies at my local farm supply store and cheaper than buying separate 1-wire hose and fittings from the local hydraulic repair shop. I used 1/2" (~12mm) 1-wire for the tank line. Some experts recommend 1 size larger hose for the tank line, others say it does not make much difference and is not worth the extra expense. Smaller diameter hose is certainly easier to handle and accepts tighter bends, but then, the tank hose(s) do not have to be high pressure hoses, and low pressure hose takes tighter bends.

The relief valve in your new assembly should be adjusted to suit your tractor's designed maximum. Kubota designed the system to safely handle about 1700 psi. The pressure affects more than just the valves, hoses and cylinders. Higher pressures cause more force on things like the pump drive mechanism. The lifting capacity will increase, meaning you might accidentally lift more weight than the front axle can support.

I can't find a number for the lifting capacity of the tractor itself, but the lifting capacity of the B219 loader Kubota made for this tractor was about 500 pounds (~225kg).
Using a calculator like this online tool, you can calculate the raw lifting force of your FEL cylinders.

Let us say that your cylinders are 1.5", with 1" diameter rods. And let us say that your cylinders attach half-way between the bucket and the support posts at a 10° angle from horizontal. The fulcrum of the lever supports twice the force of the load at the end of the lever, but you have two cylinders, so force = force x 2 / 2. At 1710 PSI, your system could lift 525 lbs (238kg), including the weight of the bucket, cylinders and arms. But at 2536 PSI, that jumps to 779 lbs (354 kg)!

Of course, you need to take your own measurements. Changing one small thing can make a big difference. For example, if the cylinders are 2" instead of 1.5", the lifting force almost doubles. If the cylinder angle is 20° the lifting force more than doubles.

Even the distance the FEL sticks out in front of the tractor affects how much load is put on the front axle. The B219 loader is 514mm from the center of the front axle to the center of the pin at the end of the arms. If your loader is bigger and sticks out further, it will put more strain on the front axle when lifting.

For all these reasons, I strongly recommend you adjust the new relief valve to suit your tractor and FEL. Don't just leave it at the default setting.
There are basically 4 choices for medium pressure agricultural hydraulic system hose. All of these hoses have a 4:1 safety margin - e.g. burst pressure is 4 times the rated working pressure and are suitable for use in this application The following data is for -06 hose e.g. 3/8" (9.5mm ) ID.

SAE R1-06: This is a one wire hose with a working pressure of 2250 PSI and a bend radius of 5".
SAE R2-06: This is a two wire hose with a working pressure of 4785 PSI and a bend radius of 5"
SAE R16-06: This is a two wire hose with a working pressure of 4785 PSI and a bend radius of 2.5"
SAE R17-06: This is a one wire hose with a working pressure of 3000 PSI and a bend radius of 2.5"

IMO R17 hose is probably the "best" choice for most agricultural uses because it is low cost, has the smallest outside diameter, a constant 3000 PSI working pressure across all dash sizes, and the tightest bend radius. You probably won't find it at your local tractor supply store.

Dan
 

torch

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Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,820
1,065
113
Muskoka, Ont.
There are basically 4 choices for medium pressure agricultural hydraulic system hose. All of these hoses have a 4:1 safety margin - e.g. burst pressure is 4 times the rated working pressure and are suitable for use in this application The following data is for -06 hose e.g. 3/8" (9.5mm ) ID.

SAE R1-06: This is a one wire hose with a working pressure of 2250 PSI and a bend radius of 5".
SAE R2-06: This is a two wire hose with a working pressure of 4785 PSI and a bend radius of 5"
SAE R16-06: This is a two wire hose with a working pressure of 4785 PSI and a bend radius of 2.5"
SAE R17-06: This is a one wire hose with a working pressure of 3000 PSI and a bend radius of 2.5"

IMO R17 hose is probably the "best" choice for most agricultural uses because it is low cost, has the smallest outside diameter, a constant 3000 PSI working pressure across all dash sizes, and the tightest bend radius. You probably won't find it at your local tractor supply store.

Dan
The stuff I did find at the local store (Princess Auto) was rated 4,000 psi, "meets SAE 100R2AT specifications". Minimum bend radius 5". Available with NPT male or JIC female swivel fittings in 2', 4', 6' or 8' lengths. I'm not sure what the "100" signifies, but the rest sounds like your R2-06.
 

TheOldHokie

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The stuff I did find at the local store (Princess Auto) was rated 4,000 psi, "meets SAE 100R2AT specifications". Minimum bend radius 5". Available with NPT male or JIC female swivel fittings in 2', 4', 6' or 8' lengths. I'm not sure what the "100" signifies, but the rest sounds like your R2-06.
The full SAE specification is 100RxxAT-nn. The 100 and AT part is "understood" and commonly omitted for brevity - in my case because I am usually typing on a smart phone.

Dan
 

torch

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B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,820
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Muskoka, Ont.
Got it.

I'm not sure what standard is in use in Austria, but at least he will have an idea what to look for in a hose.
 

TheOldHokie

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Okay..
Thats i would get the SAE 100 2 layer R1AT 330bar ~4786psi.... It is only 20 Cent per Meter more...


R1AT is a one wire hose. R2AT is a two wire hose. Either will work fine.

I think the corresponding European standards are EN 853 1SN and EN 853 2SN but don't hold me to that.

Not to beat a dead horse but the R16 (EN 857 2SC) and R17 (EN 857 1SC) hoses are much more flexible and in the case of R17 more compact.

Dan
 
Last edited:

Paranorm

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Kubota F3680/GCD900F/RCK72; B7100
Mar 18, 2022
16
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Lower Austria
Hello everyone.

I was thinking of skipping the Kubota hydraulic devider, because i m doing all of the hydraulic new, and I only need 1 pressure Hose going in the new Control assy.

The pump has a 3/8 Exit and from that Point i would Go with a 3/8 Hose in the P from the Control assy...

Is that a good Idea?
Or is there Something i Don t get?

I want to have AS less AS possible Connections...


Mike
 

TheOldHokie

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Hello everyone.

I was thinking of skipping the Kubota hydraulic devider, because i m doing all of the hydraulic new, and I only need 1 pressure Hose going in the new Control assy.

The pump has a 3/8 Exit and from that Point i would Go with a 3/8 Hose in the P from the Control assy...

Is that a good Idea?
Or is there Something i Don t get?

I want to have AS less AS possible Connections...


Mike
Sure. Just remember you need a pressure relief in the circuit and as close to the pump as possible.

Dan
 

torch

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Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,820
1,065
113
Muskoka, Ont.
I think it is a good idea, in theory. I don't trust compression fittings on hydraulic lines, and your existing line was cut with compression fittings used for the connection. I would consider running a new hose from the final PB port to the 3PH inlet for the same reason.

I have two possible concerns. First, will the hydraulic hoses handle the heat at the pump outlet, or is a short section of hard line needed to isolate the rubber from the pump?

Second, are suitable banjo style fittings available for the hydraulic hoses? Both the pump and the 3PH use banjo bolts to connect.

Perhaps Dan can weigh in here on this. He has more experience with hoses than I do.

Edit: I see he commented while I was typing. If the run from the pump goes straight to the first control P port, there should be a relief valve there, right?
 

TheOldHokie

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I think it is a good idea, in theory. I don't trust compression fittings on hydraulic lines, and your existing line was cut with compression fittings used for the connection. I would consider running a new hose from the final PB port to the 3PH inlet for the same reason.

I have two possible concerns. First, will the hydraulic hoses handle the heat at the pump outlet, or is a short section of hard line needed to isolate the rubber from the pump?

Second, are suitable banjo style fittings available for the hydraulic hoses? Both the pump and the 3PH use banjo bolts to connect.

Perhaps Dan can weigh in here on this. He has more experience with hoses than I do.

Edit: I see he commented while I was typing. If the run from the pump goes straight to the first control P port, there should be a relief valve there, right?
I don't see a problem with any of those concerns. If the tube is not damaged and compression fittings are properly installed they are reliable connections up to the maximum pressure the tube can handle. I provide these AeroQuip (now Parker) VersilFlare flareless fittings with my Ford pump conversion kits. They are nice in that all you need is a couple wrenches to attach any JIC adapter to the cut end of a tube. JIC tube nuts and sleeves are a lot cheaper so if you plan on doing much hydraulic tube work a 37 degree flaring tool will pay for itself pretty quickly.

Dan

VersilFlare.png


temp.jpg
 
Last edited:

torch

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Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,820
1,065
113
Muskoka, Ont.
So if he can't find the appropriate banjo connector, he could cut the outlet side of the pump line off before the hydraulic block and use one of those adapters for the line to the 1st control set. Then a second adapter to the 3PH line from the final PB port.

Sounds like a plan, then.
 

TheOldHokie

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So if he can't find the appropriate banjo connector, he could cut the outlet side of the pump line off before the hydraulic block and use one of those adapters for the line to the 1st control set. Then a second adapter to the 3PH line from the final PB port.

Sounds like a plan, then.
Probably the only easy way to make the pump connection. Isn't that a two bolt flange port?

Edit: Gettin old is hell. I looked at the parts diagram - that's a BSPP port - JIC banjo and hose all the way.

Dan
 

Paranorm

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Kubota F3680/GCD900F/RCK72; B7100
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Probably the only easy way to make the pump connection. Isn't that a two bolt flange port?

Edit: Gettin old is hell. I looked at the parts diagram - that's a BSPP port - JIC banjo and hose all the way.

Dan

I don't Cut anything...
My Plan is, Go Direct from the pump to the control IMG_20220323_161025.jpg

I will use that screw in Bolt for the pump Exit and with the M18 i Go Direct to the P Inlet of the Control assy...

And on the new assy the overload valve is right after the P entrance, If the schematic is right IMG_20220323_161450.jpg
 

torch

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B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,820
1,065
113
Muskoka, Ont.
From the Whitehouse Products description of their equivalent pump:

KUBOTA TRACTOR PUMP, 13.4MM SHORT TANG 6.8MM WIDE, 4-BOLT MOUNTING FLANGE 58MM SPIGOT AND 63x63MM HOLE CENTRES , 1/2 JBSP SIDE INLET, 3/8 JBSP SIDE OUTLET, 73MM WIDE ACROSS THE PORTS.
 

torch

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B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
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Muskoka, Ont.
I don't know what the difference is between "JBSP" and "BSPP". The adapter you show in post 36 might be the right thread but seems to have an o-ring. The pump has a flat surface and originally sealed with a flat copper crush washer. It is hard to tell for certain from the picture if the pump outlet also has a bevel to retain an o-ring.

If it does, and if the thread is correct, then that adapter is an elegant solution. Please let us know how it works out.
 

TheOldHokie

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From the Whitehouse Products description of their equivalent pump:
I have one here somewher - I will dig it out. That description seems to indicate it can be used with either a flange or banjo fitting. The Kubota parts book is clearly banjo.

Paranormal you got it covered but better check the threads on that port. "Normal" is a setting on a clothes dryer. Could be metric ORB, BSPP, SAE, ORB or something more obscure. The pump dexcription should say what it is.

Dan