Paralysis by analysis - Buying decision needs wise input!

[WaltWestbrook]

Based on your requirements for farm, forestry and construction projects I’d go with a R-1 Ag. Tire. You get more ground clearance, they are mean to use with agriculture attachments on 3 point hitch, better traction, better on rough ground.

Ok, good info. I thought the R-1 was thinner walled and more susceptible to puncture. Frankly I'll probably settle on the tire that's on the used tractor I can find...beggars and choosers.

 

[WaltWestbrook]

Welcome to the forum.

Your #2 requirement to clean up the bottoms is best done with a crawler machine not a rubber tire machine. Tractors are not meant for that kind of work (especially a tractor with a cab) and you have some big trees there. Some might suggest a track hoe also but my experience says you want a small cat. Maybe it would be wise to rent one or hire out that work.

Get a utility tractor to do the farm work (plowing, disking haying, feeding livestock, clearing snow, etc ). If you are going to hay what size bales will you use? If it's small squares and it not too hilly 50-60HP will do you especially if you have some strapping teenagers to buck bales. If you are going to big round bales you'll need a bigger machine ~80 HP at the pto.

Been there and done that including the managed intensive grazing.

You'll get a lot of opinions on this site because we all have different life experiences. You job will be to sort out what works for you

Thanks Jerry. No plans to hay. Neighbor has been managing the pasture (for the cost of taking the hay off) for 25 years.
Sorting out the opinions, indeed. But I've always been a fan of soliciting wisdom where I can find it. I'm lazy like that.

 

[WaltWestbrook]

I think I agree with Elliott.

Hire out the big work to get started. It gets you into the property and functional quickly, and it changes what sort of machine you need if that work is done. It's also work that a pro will do quickly, and you (and your boys) would do slowly.

Conversely (as always), if the aim is to keep yourself and your boys busy, then actually doing it slow is a benefit not a problem. In a world where you want to be able to look at it and say "I did that", then I think an M or MX class machine would be ample. Rent an excavator so that you've got two boys toys whilst doing the big work. You can absolutely fell and clear land with a chainsaw, a tractor and a brush hog, depending on how much time and effort you want to put in. Probably literally a month of Sundays (if you're working only on the weekends that turns into a bit over half of a year - 30 Sundays). And maybe a bit more as well. But if you enjoy that kind of work, it's a lot of fun.

So, ask yourself the question as to what your priority is. If the priority is to get the farm functional - get the cattle on it, get the pole barn in, get the RV park so you have somewhere to sleep, then hire out a bunch of work to get started. If the priority is to feel that you personally cleared it, then buy the tractor and get started.

(My 10c is that you'll have plenty of work left even after the pros leave, so I'd hire out the heavy work and still feel like I mostly did it myself)

You and Elliott asked the good question. Priority. I don't want to step over the $ to pick up the ¢ for sure. We've pushed all the chips in on the land purchase so I'm pinching pennies mentally, and probably not valuing TIME properly. I'll revisit it. Thanks for this.

 

[WaltWestbrook]

Opinions on when the Law of Dimishing Return kicks in based on used tractor operating hours? Seems most used machines I'm looking at are 1,000 hours and below.
When does the wear and tear get close to a major tear down?

 

[mcmxi]

I would like a cab but didn’t choose one because I often work in wooded areas of my land. I don’t think the cab glass would last too long. If that’s not an issue for you, go for the cab, otherwise open station with a steel canopy is probably the wisest choice.

In a perfect world we'd have an open station and a cabbed tractor, but for many of us it's one or the other, and for me and my work a cab is absolutely the best way to go.

I pull a rotary cutter and a flail in the summer which is incredibly dusty, and grade a gravel driveway which is also very dusty. I also have a 3-point sprayer so could be exposed to toxins on an open station. I blow snow in the winter and don't have to work around any trees, for the most part at least. Add in the fact that heat, a/c and a dry seat make for a much more comfortable "office" environment and it all adds up to more usable hours of the tractor and implements since use isn't dependent on the weather. If it's pouring rain, -10F, 105F or humid I'm still going to use the tractor. That wasn't the case when I had open station models.

I was cutting a friend's 12 acres last summer and the horse flies and mosquitos were brutal. It was bad enough getting the tractor off/on the trailer and jumping out to blow vegetation off the radiators/condensers. I couldn't/wouldn't have cut his fields in an open station with all those bugs. Not to mention the dust, heat etc.

 

[D2Cat]

Some folks are allergic to used equipment. They're apparently taught as youngsters to not buy someone else's problem. They may very well grow up not being very mechanically inclined because they sell and buy new, not repair and keep going.

I have several tractors and have almost no mechanical problems, all purchased used. Couple of them have 3,500-4,200 hours and one is a 1966 Case 730 I bought from the original owner. One is an air cooled Deutz 6206 and it can set for months and fire off about the third revolution. Had them both 15-20 years.

My Kubota L4240 is a 2007. I bought sight unseen from a dealer in Kentucky, had about 750 hours on it. Paid a guy to haul it to me. Changed all the hyd fluids even though the dealer serviced it the year before as required. Just a fun tractor to use and no problems.

Diesel tractors can go to 20,000 hours when service properly and regularly. Home owners can't put that many hours on a machine. A typical yard mower won't get 50 hours a year. A field machine will get more depending on what it's being used for. If you have a job and use the machine on weekends how many hours do you have to spend on it? Fifty weeks a year x 10 hours a week is only 500 hours a year, and that's spending half of every weekend on it!

My point is, know what you need a machine for then start looking for the size you want within your budget. Don't be discouraged with pre owned equipment if you (or your representative) look it over, know it's history and it's in you budget.

Whatever you end up with buy a service manual so you can study and understand what/how your machine works. You'll feel more comfortable operating and owning it!

 

[Freeheeler]

Welcome to East Tn, go Vols!!
Cabs are nice, but for E TN our winters are short and mild and other then August, not too hot either. Cabs in the woods can get expensive. I would lean toward M or MX or a biggish grand L. If your goal is to get it done quickly you can hire out certain stuff, but I thought I read a goal was to keep the boys occupied. In that case an open station with bucket and backhoe would be ideal.
Good luck, have fun, enjoy TN.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Opinions on when the Law of Dimishing Return kicks in based on used tractor operating hours? Seems most used machines I'm looking at are 1,000 hours and below.
When does the wear and tear get close to a major tear down?

I equate an hour to 50 miles, so a tractor with 1,000 hours is just 'broke in'. Our 30 year old 3930 has about 700 hours on it and is as good as it was new with a little TLC (and new front tires last year).
That said, like cars, there's more to it than operating hours, of course. Has periodic maintenance been performed? Have things that broke been fixed? Was it kept indoors? Abused? Does everything work correctly? Noises? If you're buying a loader, how much wear is it showing?
If you're willing to do some maintenance yourself, a good used machine is fine. My L35 had obviously been used hard and showed wear, but the engine and transmission worked and sounded ok and everything functioned except a couple of lights. I figured I could handle ($ and capability) most anything but an engine or transmission overhaul. I've replaced a bunch of hoses and repacked several hydraulic cylinders. It still needs the backhoe swing bushings and pins replaced, but it's usable. A new tractor would have cost 3 times as much, and that wasn't justified.
Do you have a place to store it? You'll accumulate a surprising amount of tools and parts (chains, oils, filters, pins, etc) on the farm and need a place to keep them.
Whether you buy new or used, you need to be willing and able to do minor repairs yourself or you'll spend all your time and $ at the shop. Your neighbor could be a valuable resource.

 

[PaulL]

My BX had a bit over 1,000 hours on it when I bought it cheap. It had been abused - every panel on it was broken (it was the plastic model), everywhere it said don't step had been stepped, mower deck cracked etc etc. Welded up what could be welded up and used it for 3 years. Never missed a beat. They're robust machines, unless they've been really beaten on 1,000 hours isn't likely to be a problem. For a large machine like an M, particularly if used by a responsible contractor, up to 3-4,000 hours I'd still consider to be in the prime of its life.

When I say responsible contractor I'm drawing a distinction between an outfit where the owner drives it, or has a small team he watches. Or even a big outfit that does all their maintenance religiously. But an outfit that buys machines, works them hard with young guys who don't care (or understand), and doesn't do the maintenance properly.....in that case you can get a machine that will have issues. Like with cars, the worst thing you can do to a tractor is skip the maintenance. If it's been greased and fluids changed on schedule you can't hurt it by using it.

 

[jyoutz]

I equate an hour to 50 miles, so a tractor with 1,000 hours is just 'broke in'. Our 30 year old 3930 has about 700 hours on it and is as good as it was new with a little TLC (and new front tires last year).
That said, like cars, there's more to it than operating hours, of course. Has periodic maintenance been performed? Have things that broke been fixed? Was it kept indoors? Abused? Does everything work correctly? Noises? If you're buying a loader, how much wear is it showing?
If you're willing to do some maintenance yourself, a good used machine is fine. My L35 had obviously been used hard and showed wear, but the engine and transmission worked and sounded ok and everything functioned except a couple of lights. I figured I could handle ($ and capability) most anything but an engine or transmission overhaul. I've replaced a bunch of hoses and repacked several hydraulic cylinders. It still needs the backhoe swing bushings and pins replaced, but it's usable. A new tractor would have cost 3 times as much, and that wasn't justified.
Do you have a place to store it? You'll accumulate a surprising amount of tools and parts (chains, oils, filters, pins, etc) on the farm and need a place to keep them.
Whether you buy new or used, you need to be willing and able to do minor repairs yourself or you'll spend all your time and $ at the shop. Your neighbor could be a valuable resource.

One thing that might be a consideration with used. I had a 2000 pre-emissions tractor that I sold to buy my 2021 MX. The diesel fumes from the old tractor gave me a sinus headache every time I used it for an hour or more. With my new tractor, I can use it all day with no fumes or headache.

 

[fried1765]

Some folks are allergic to used equipment. They're apparently taught as youngsters to not buy someone else's problem. They may very well grow up not being very mechanically inclined because they sell and buy new, not repair and keep going.

I have several tractors and have almost no mechanical problems, all purchased used. Couple of them have 3,500-4,200 hours and one is a 1966 Case 730 I bought from the original owner. One is an air cooled Deutz 6206 and it can set for months and fire off about the third revolution. Had them both 15-20 years.

My Kubota L4240 is a 2007. I bought sight unseen from a dealer in Kentucky, had about 750 hours on it. Paid a guy to haul it to me. Changed all the hyd fluids even though the dealer serviced it the year before as required. Just a fun tractor to use and no problems.

Diesel tractors can go to 20,000 hours when service properly and regularly. Home owners can't put that many hours on a machine. A typical yard mower won't get 50 hours a year. A field machine will get more depending on what it's being used for. If you have a job and use the machine on weekends how many hours do you have to spend on it? Fifty weeks a year x 10 hours a week is only 500 hours a year, and that's spending half of every weekend on it!

My point is, know what you need a machine for then start looking for the size you want within your budget. Don't be discouraged with pre owned equipment if you (or your representative) look it over, know it's history and it's in you budget.

Whatever you end up with buy a service manual so you can study and understand what/how your machine works. You'll feel more comfortable operating and owning it!

BINGO !!!!

 

[JerryMT]

Opinions on when the Law of Dimishing Return kicks in based on used tractor operating hours? Seems most used machines I'm looking at are 1,000 hours and below.
When does the wear and tear get close to a major tear down?

It all depends on the how the machine was used and maintained. Some people beat the crap out of a machine and treat it like a consumable. A lot of rental machines are abused and not well maintained. People try to use a subcompact tractor as if were a D9 Cat! The subcompacts are simply not designed for that.

A good utility tractor 50- 100hp is, in general, pretty ruggedly designed and with less than 1000-1500 hours has a lot of life left if it has the oil and filters changed per the manufacturer's schedules. We bought a 1982 Ford 4610 in 1999 with 1200 hours on that was used to mow a millionaire's estate with gang mowers. We still have it and has been a reliable machine and we now have about 2600 hours on it. We added a FEL just after we bought it, put new tires on a few years ago, replaced the wiring harness that the mice destroyed, and just put fresh oil and filters on it, changed the coolant regularly. Used coolant treatment to prevent cavitation damage, etc, etc and it still is a workhorse. We have a 1979 M4500 Kubota we bought as a rake tractor with 2280 hours that we bought six years ago we treat it the same way. I try to buy tractors that do not have Tier IV emissions systems on them because they are problematic. We sold our Montana ranch last year and you'd be surprised at how many people wanted to buy our equipment because their Tier IV machines were just not reliable. These were full time farmers and ranchers.

A good utility tractor generally looks clean with some scratches and small dents and dings. I am leery of anything that is covered with oil and chaff and looks like a fire hazard. Bashed up sheet metal, parts missing, duct taped or broken wiring, low oil and coolant levels, hard starting in moderate temperatures, blue exhaust smoke and excessive blow by from the draft tube and the oil filler tube are signs of a beat tractor. Poor shifting, popping out of gear are signs of worn transmission which is generally more expensive to fix than an engine. The tires can be used but not plumb wore out. Steering should be tight but if it's just a worn steering knuckle those can be replaced relatively cheaply. Look for bent wheel spindles and axles. If you're going to get a loader, having a 4wd tractor is strongly advised because it has a stronger front axle. Also, you will want to have a shuttle shift on a loader tractor and if you can, get one with a wet clutch.

This is what I look for when I buy a used tractor. Some may not agree but I'm 80 years old and it has worked for me.

 

[D2Cat]

About four years ago my neighbor was looking for used Kubota for haying. Went to a farm auction and bought an M9540 cab with a loader. He spent some on things like mirrors and I think a couple of hoses for the AC. He still had it and uses it almost daily. Had a bit over 3,800 hours on it when he bought it. I always tease his family about when is he going to go back and pay the second half...... he paid $18,000 for it!

 

[WaltWestbrook]

This is what I look for when I buy a used tractor. Some may not agree but I'm 80 years old and it has worked for me.

This is such valuable input! Thanks, Jerry.

 

[GeoHorn]

Hello all.
New to the site, new to tractoring (I've run lots of different equipment, never owned it).
I've read for hours here and elsewhere on buying a Kubota and frankly, I"m worn out. Time to get wise counsel.
So if you've the time and an opinion, please weigh in.

First, my state of affairs-

• Family just purchased 120 acres of fallow farm (last farmed tomatoes and strawberries, only using 30 acres of creek bottom land, in 1988).
• Location is E TN, rural.
• The bottoms is sapling, bramble, some really large pines (48" diameter and up), and mixed hard and soft woods up to 18" diameter.
• Bottoms is very flat, with slight slope to the creek, which runs through the parcel, separating the bottoms from the hills (mountains?).
• The rest of the acreage is old, very large hardwood forest, on slope, with 3 hollows draining down into the creek.

PLAN (loosely..very loosely!)

1. Grade for an RV pad. This includes 800' of graveling the old driveway, removing a collapsed hay barn (huge), and grading and prepping for power and water hookup.
2. Clean up the bottoms. Remove brush, snags, open up the canopy, and general cleanup so we can see what we have.
3. Grade and prep an area for staging trailers and equipment. May install pole barn there pretty quickly.
4. Recover the bottoms for grazing asap, using electric fencing to get cows Manage Intensive Grazing asap.
5. Install a bridge / culvert over the creek. Span is 36', water depth is typically low (18") but storm runoff can cause flooding. Bank height to water is 7'.
6. Continue to build out infrastructure as time and money allow.
7. Keep my teen boys exhausted every day.
8. Eventually build a house (likely timbering from the woods).

Considerations for purchase

• Buy more power than I think I need now, based on many, many posts.
• Maneuverability
• Weight, to limit compacting and soil destruction
• Grapple lifting capability
• Cab / no cab
• Used (may go look at new but prefer to pay cash)
• Bush hog, box blade
• R4 tires (forest seems to have lots of puncture potential)

Where I am now (no purchase made yet)

The L series is appealing for size, but the M or Mx seems to give more bang for buck (guessing demand is stronger for L series).
The L4701 looks good, but folks said the bump in HP to the Mx was a better deal all around.
Backhoe and midframe attachment looks really good but frankly I'd likely just rent a mini-excavator for the backhoe needs.
The 55-65 horsepower machines appear to meet much of my need.

So holler with your input, please. The scope of options, trying to solve current and future needs, is maddening. Thanks.

48” Diameter Pine Trees…. Really..?? Did you mean Circumference..?

 

[WaltWestbrook]

48” Diameter Pine Trees…. Really..?? Did you mean Circumference..?

No sir, diameter. Next time I'm down in that stand, I'll bring a tape get the circumference, too.

 

[WaltWestbrook]

I'm seeing a number of older M series tractors without loaders. Is it possible to add one to these models without them? Also, found a used auction M6060F (no loader) but can't find out what the F designates.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

I'm seeing a number of older M series tractors without loaders. Is it possible to add one to these models without them? Also, found a used auction M6060F (no loader) but can't find out what the F designates.

You can add a loader but finding one may be a problem. Make sure you get the brackets etc. that fit your tractor. New loaders from Kubota have been scarce. Putting a new loader on a used tractor usually doesn't make $en$e.

I think that's a 2WD, no cab. Great mowing candidate, but not so good for loader.

Sometimes, word of mouth is more successful. Maybe your neighbors know someone?

 

[GeoHorn]

I would never again own a tractor without a loader… and it’s difficult for me to imagine owning a 2WD tractor with or without a loader… A 2WD tractor is mostly useful for mowing and a zero-turn is better at that.

 

[fried1765]

It all depends on the how the machine was used and maintained. Some people beat the crap out of a machine and treat it like a consumable. A lot of rental machines are abused and not well maintained. People try to use a subcompact tractor as if were a D9 Cat! The subcompacts are simply not designed for that.

A good utility tractor 50- 100hp is, in general, pretty ruggedly designed and with less than 1000-1500 hours has a lot of life left if it has the oil and filters changed per the manufacturer's schedules. We bought a 1982 Ford 4610 in 1999 with 1200 hours on that was used to mow a millionaire's estate with gang mowers. We still have it and has been a reliable machine and we now have about 2600 hours on it. We added a FEL just after we bought it, put new tires on a few years ago, replaced the wiring harness that the mice destroyed, and just put fresh oil and filters on it, changed the coolant regularly. Used coolant treatment to prevent cavitation damage, etc, etc and it still is a workhorse. We have a 1979 M4500 Kubota we bought as a rake tractor with 2280 hours that we bought six years ago we treat it the same way. I try to buy tractors that do not have Tier IV emissions systems on them because they are problematic. We sold our Montana ranch last year and you'd be surprised at how many people wanted to buy our equipment because their Tier IV machines were just not reliable. These were full time farmers and ranchers.

A good utility tractor generally looks clean with some scratches and small dents and dings. I am leery of anything that is covered with oil and chaff and looks like a fire hazard. Bashed up sheet metal, parts missing, duct taped or broken wiring, low oil and coolant levels, hard starting in moderate temperatures, blue exhaust smoke and excessive blow by from the draft tube and the oil filler tube are signs of a beat tractor. Poor shifting, popping out of gear are signs of worn transmission which is generally more expensive to fix than an engine. The tires can be used but not plumb wore out. Steering should be tight but if it's just a worn steering knuckle those can be replaced relatively cheaply. Look for bent wheel spindles and axles. If you're going to get a loader, having a 4wd tractor is strongly advised because it has a stronger front axle. Also, you will want to have a shuttle shift on a loader tractor and if you can, get one with a wet clutch.

This is what I look for when I buy a used tractor. Some may not agree but I'm 80 years old and it has worked for me.

I am 82.....and I absolutely agree!