Is propeller shaft supposed to run all times~???

[eserv]

Hi Joe,
I am another Kubota dealer and I agree with yours, the grinding is normal, though I also agree with you, It is a little disconcerting! I think a leather belt could be fashioned as you say to be applied when you push the clutch pedal
stopping the shaft. I did just that on a Power King tractor I owned years ago!
Ed

 

[Ob1kubota]

Yes, I do have Work shop manual. and I followed all the way.

Now, I did a few TEST today.

Let's start over again during your testing and review your original questions...[/SIZE]

1. wait for 5 seconds, and 10 seconds, and more but propeller shaft is keep on turning and gear is still grinding when I try to engage the gear shift. and also PTO engaging grinds too. (While holding clutch pressed down)

2. Put a small piece of 2 x 4 under neith of the clutch pedal to hold clutch down and using vise grip to holding propeller shaft lightly and testing gear shifting and NO MORE GRINDING on gear shift and PTO engaging.

In this step you have simply used an external means to adjust the internal setting of the clutch.

3. But~ once PTO is engaged, propeller shaft completely stops all by itself every time I depress the clutch down. and NO MORE grinding on gear shift and PTO engaging.~~~!!!

So, I guess this tractor (B7510DT) is designed to using PTO all times.
If I use snow blower or finish mower, I don't have to worry about gear grinding but if I don't use them... I have to be careful on gear shifting, I guess~!

Dusty, if it wasn't for you, I would never found this far. So~ I thank you~!!!
I owe you a coffee and donut~~~
Oh~ if you know anyone sells used Box blade, Please let me know...

Joe.

Of course, I wouldn't touch the PTO shaft. as you said my hand will be mangled Mango.

I have B7510DT tractor.
As you could see these two images, from Clutch shaft to Propeller shaft.
It look a like transfering power from the engine to transmission.

But, Why is it keep on turning even clutch is disengaged~???
and dealer said it is normal~?!

That Propeller shaft is the one could be stopped by hand after clutch is depress down.

Joe.

Lets review your steps above now that we have definitely established that you only have a single disc clutch with one single adjustment.


1. Clutch is out of adjustment and still making light pressure contact ( slipping) with flywheel.

2. You have proven to yourself this is happening by externally depressing the clutch petal with a 2x4 while creating resistance on the PTO shaft overriding the flywheel kinetic energy.

3. With the PTO engaged the mechanical advantage has shifted in the reverse ( resistance ) to flywheel inertia balancing the movement to neutral thus no drivetrain grinding is experienced.

Final thoughts and recommendation Joe.

Kubota didn't design this system to ACT as it currently is... I think everybody reading this post agrees on that statement... and further I recommend a simple attempt to adjust the clutch FREE PETAL TRAVEL is in order before building a mechanical shaft stopping device to prevent a mangled Joe . If your clutch is properly adjusted and you declutch placing the transmission in neutral and after five seconds there should be no gear movement happening anywhere in the output drivetrain to PTO engaged or disengaged. If you still have movement in the neutral position with the shifter tower in this position, (Hint: to be sure you are in neutral rock the shifter tower handle knob back and forth side ways freely) your transmission is still receiving kinetic energy from the flywheel ( prime mover ) because the clutch is maladjusted (Slipping against the flywheel) or the transmission shifter yoke is bent and hanging in gear in the nuetral position causing the output (PTO ) shaft to turn when you have it engaged.

 

[eserv]

Well I give up then. I guess Ob1 is more knowledgeable about Kubota's than those of us who are Kubota trained and work on these things every day!
Ed

 

[Ob1kubota]

Ed sorry your upset with OB1 but Dealer's cannot offically use Kubota's name for unauthorized modifications to any component on an established model tractor without first having the Engineering Manager review the modification and agree to the liabilty of said modication. I have found this to be true in the US because of Tort Law and experience with modifing our rental fleet products. I can just about bet the Farm KAC will not agree to a Dealer authorizing a leather or other strap to stop a rotating shaft because of gear noise before it is first reviewed by engineering and upper management. If that be the case, it would have been factory installed and in what I've seen as a customer for over thirty years, Kubota Corporation is all about safety and reducing risk in every model produced. Thanks for listing from a large customer who is respective of and maintains a different view point on this post.

 

[eserv]

I did not tell him he should put a brake on there I simply suggested that he could after he asked if he could. He will never get that tractor to stop a small amount of gear crunching because they are all like that . I am trying to get him to understand that his tractor is OK . You on the other hand???
Ed

 

[Ob1kubota]

Hi Joe,
I am another Kubota dealer and I agree with yours, the grinding is normal, though I also agree with you, It is a little disconcerting! I think a leather belt could be fashioned as you say to be applied when you push the clutch pedal
stopping the shaft. I did just that on a Power King tractor I owned years ago!
Ed[/QUOTE

I rest my case ladies and gentlemen of the jury! End of Story.

 

[eserv]

There is no need to shout
Ed

 

[joekimtkd]

I went to Tae Kwon Do Tournament in Toronto all day yesterday

As OB1 said already, I never could believe Kubota engineer wouldn't design or build those tractor that grinding gears~!!!
Like anything else, it breaks. then we have to fix, Don't we? so asking questions here and getting a lot of good answers from everyone. including a tons of Ob1's. I really love Ob1. indeed everyone here. I mean it. althogh I'm not a GAY or mangled Joe yet~

**********************************************************

Lets review your steps above now that we have definitely established that you only have a single disc clutch with one single adjustment.


1. Clutch is out of adjustment and still making light pressure contact ( slipping) with flywheel.

2. You have proven to yourself this is happening by externally depressing the clutch petal with a 2x4 while creating resistance on the PTO shaft overriding the flywheel kinetic energy.

3. With the PTO engaged the mechanical advantage has shifted in the reverse ( resistance ) to flywheel inertia balancing the movement to neutral thus no drivetrain grinding is experienced.

Final thoughts and recommendation Joe.

Kubota didn't design this system to ACT as it currently is... I think everybody reading this post agrees on that statement... and further I recommend a simple attempt to adjust the clutch FREE PETAL TRAVEL is in order before building a mechanical shaft stopping device to prevent a mangled Joe . If your clutch is properly adjusted and you declutch placing the transmission in neutral and after five seconds there should be no gear movement happening anywhere in the output drivetrain to PTO engaged or disengaged. If you still have movement in the neutral position with the shifter tower in this position, (Hint: to be sure you are in neutral rock the shifter tower handle knob back and forth side ways freely) your transmission is still receiving kinetic energy from the flywheel ( prime mover ) because the clutch is maladjusted (Slipping against the flywheel) or the transmission shifter yoke is bent and hanging in gear in the nuetral position causing the output (PTO ) shaft to turn when you have it engaged.

**********************************************************

Okay, I did clutch adjustment before as I repied to Dusty too.
There was 2" clutch play. so I changed to 1". and there are bolt and nuts for Clutch rod travel adjusting bolt there too and Shop manual says 8.9 mm to keep. and it was 8.9mm already. but I gave all the way open to try to stop the grinding but it still did. so I put it back to 9 mm.

Another word, clutch adjustment is all done by Work Shop Manual.
and only thing I couldn't do is inside of inspection window to check in there.
For that, I have to wait for my neighbor mechanic to look at it for me.
Frankly, I don't know what to look in there.

Even some said, there should be a clutch travel bearing (?) to grease but I never could find one~

I'm the one who ask for "Leather belt" but I guess it is bad idea~~~

What should I do now~???
Please, save me from DARK SIDE~!

Joe.

 

[dusty-t]

Hi Joe, Glad to see you are getting some responses. I am just an old backyard grease monkey, but something has been bugging me. I have lived for a long time and owned or driven a lot of different equipment, trucks etc. The old Chevy and Ford 4 gears with the bull low would give a little grunt when going into gear. As would some tractors. There is a big difference between a little clunk - clunk going into gear and actually grinding the gears to get it into gear. If it is the first then you may have to live with it. If it is the latter then somebody from kubota has to pony up an answer, cause Joe is going to screw up his tranny. You can only grind a tranny into gear so many times before you have troubles. Just my opinion. Good luck Joe. I would really like to see and hear this tractor myself. As would almost everyone else on the forum!!!!

 

[joekimtkd]

Thank you Dusty.

I'm still looking for the answer for this problem. As Ob1 said and I believe Kubota engineers are not that stupid to design that way... or Are they~~~???
and Thank you for understanding my trouble. I am deeply appreciated to you.

Any how, guess what...! I didn't use the leather belt. 'cause I couldn't find one on hand. so I just used regular rope to temporarily to stop turning propeller shaft and it worked perfect~~~!!! No more GRINDING~!!!

Just pull the rope through the plastic cover under the chair and I pull this loopped rope over the propeller shaft and it stops. and when I let it go, it goes a big loop. so it doesn't touch the shaft at all.

And I know, this isn't the right fix... but with my lack of knowledge on the tractors, I have to wait till someone "Point the fingers".

Dusty, like you said, if you want to see and hear the tractor... Please feel free to come over. Indeed, I'll buy you a Lunch too.
email me at "masterjoekim@sympatico.ca" or call 519-369-2660.

Thank you.

Joe.

 

[Ob1kubota]

Joe good gully if you can get Dusty over to your garage he can help point the fingers to why this shaft is still turning with the clutch petal clear to the end of its travel with the correct factory setting and absolutely Kubota didn't design it that way that's why I keep saying the clutch disc is still in light contact with the flywheel and before you split the tractor there are still some cheap things to try. In one of your previous post you mentioned a bearing well it's in their and called a throw out bearing by most mechanics. It's number .010 in your attached drawing and is pressed onto the yoke that rides around the transmission input shaft pilot hub. It sounds like you are sure about the rod and free petal clutch adjustments being correct to factory specification then it can only be rust and lack of lubrication keeping the bearing from placing pressure on the clutch plate to release torque under normal load at idle assuming the clutch linkage is not bent (shortened) internally

Ole MasterJoe get Dusty over there or you can chop chop him , borrow/rent/steal a bore scope and look inside the clutch housing for the condition of the input shaft, throw out bearing and rust and worn clutch material lodged on the pilot hub. Please post what you see in there and come back with report. I have one more trick before the old rope wears out
Ole Darth Vader proverb.... the empire tranny will soon fail if you grind them until you find them jedi's gears

 

[joekimtkd]

Yeah, Dusty is coming tomorrow to look at it for me. but I don't think we would have bore scope to rent in time though. I might have to go to Princess Auto to buy one.

Meanwhile, I found one more clutch image from parts manual. I think that was the one you were looking for...

I will ask Dusty to look inside as much as he could and will tell him to post here all the information he finds.

Automatic controlling system in electrical is my major but Mechanical isn't my field. so I can't even imagine what I supposed to look for.

Ed is coming to Shelbourne Ont. on Saturday. but I have a party to attend on Saturday 5 pm. in Clifford Ont. So, I'm not sure if I could make time to see him in Shelbourne. I'll ask Dusty too if he could make it or not.

Thanks a lot for everyone.

Joe.

 

[eserv]

I am going to Markham Ontario for a Kubota service school on Thursday and Friday and you can be sure I'll be quizzing both Chris Brown and Brad Joki about this issue. I'll ask about the runaway TLB as well! If any of you have any other things you want me to bring up there just let me know!
The main focus of this school will be the new 4 cylinder common-rail engine in the M126X and the M135X tractors
Ed

 

[eserv]

Very interesting problem! I don't see how the Kubota governer could allow that to happen then fix itself. I' pretty sure the TLH48 doesn't have that red screw either but I'm not positive about that. The stop mechanism acts directly on the end of the fuel rack on those engines so if it does have the screw it would effectively shut the fuel off allright. They have taken that "emergency " provision off most of the new tractors and I lament that!

 

[dusty-t]

I will be there Joe, Just remember I am a backyard grease monkey not a master tech. But I will do what I can do and see what I can see. My grandsons baptism is on Saturday so I will be away on Sat too: Wish us luck guys. Dusty.

 

[eserv]

Wish I could go over and see that tractor myself I'll only be 40 miles away from it! but I really need to spend the time with my Mom and brother! I get to see them so infrequently that when I do get the chance I must make the best of it. Sorry!
Ed

 

[dusty-t]

We all understand about family and long distance family. This is a perfect opportunity to visit. Family takes presidence over tractors. Have a good visit Ed. Dusty

 

[joekimtkd]

Dusty, I'm free now on. It is 10:30 am right now.
I sopposed to have meeting around 11 am. but he came around 9:30 am.
and it is all DONE now.
So, you don't have to wait till 1 pm no more. Whenever you are ready, you could come. but Please call me and tell me what time you are coming. so I could tell my wife to come to store early.
and I'm not sure if you will see this post in time~

We will have lunch together. so come with EMPTY stomach~~~!

Joe.

 

[ipz2222]

one more thing that hasen't been mentioned. The pilot bearing in the crankshaft that centeres the input shaft of the trans. If it is dragging on the input shaft, sticky old grease, bad bearing, that will cause the grinding also.

 

[dusty-t]

Well Joe, I am sorry I couldn't do a Quick Fix . You have done everything that I would have done. Long story short, there is noise where there should not be, you can get it in to first without too much trouble, a wee little bit of grinding, 2nd gear is worse , third is a lot worse. The noise sounds like the release bearing but but I have never heard a bad throw out bearing on a B7510 . The previous owner says he never rode the clutch. The tractor has 448 hrs on it and the rubber on the clutch pedal tells a different story. As far as it being normal on a tractor with 450 hrs on it. Uh no! As far as it being a fault with the tractor, not likely, driver abuse riding the clutch? I can see no way to see much of anything without the scope. Loader is in the way, and there seems to be only one view port about 1 1/2 inches across. It takes very very little pressure to push the clutch in. It looks like the throw from fully engaged to disengaged is very narrow. But Joe says he can stall the engine at 1700 rpm. The only thing I am not confused about is that there is a problem. If you can get some kind of access to the release bearing to see if it is dry, worn out, rusted, whatever.There is something wrong in there and chances are it means at some point you are going to have to split the tractor. If you are going to split the tractor you replace everything. And that is my take on this little can of worms. Boy I hope some one can figure out something different Joe. I may be wrong, I have been wrong many many times before. By the way ,you fed me so much I've been lazy all day long. Thanks for lunch