Garage/Workshop Build

Henro

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B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex.
May 24, 2019
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Yeah I was wondering about the ground rod. But no one around here does that so I guess it's not required. It must depend on the distance to the main panel (total resistance).
I think it has something to do with the size of the ground wire used. In my case I used all (4) individual conductors the same size. BUT I think code here allows a different smaller size ground wire, but requires a ground rod.

The way I looked at it, was if I ran all the same size wires, the remote panel would be no different that a sub panel in the basement, which does not require a ground rod here.

Pretty sure you will be fine. Depending on what size that apparently aluminum ground wire is that comes in which is part of your UF cable. I ran mine separately, with three individual conductors, in conduit. All four wires were copper of the same size.

Still, if I remember, this year I am going to put the ground rod in...can't hurt.
 

awesome

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B2601, BH70, K54-22-06B
Sep 16, 2018
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ottawa
Question about framing the garage door: I'll be putting up 2x6' as backing for the rails on the interior side of the wall. Does it matter wheter I put the backing directly on the studs or over the OSB (interior walls are covered with OSB, not drywall). I accidently sheated one side and I'm wondering if I just keep at it or if I should undo.

The way I see it is that the only thing that will change is that the door will be 1/2" "deeper" inside, so it shouldn't matter.
 

GreensvilleJay

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BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
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the main feed in needs to be mechanically secured to the box,same as all the wires for the circuits.
the reason for the disconnect/main breaker is SAFETY ! Unless you physically remove the feeding breaker from the house panel there's NO way someone can't 'flip it on' while you're working on the garage panel, also when you decide to add another circuit( you will.....), you can trip the panel main and work SAFELY.
Crazy thing is last year I bought used 'whole house panel' (100A,full of breakers) for same $$ as a 12 slot 'pony panel'

Never really understood the 'un bond the ground and neutral' idea for 'remote' subpanels. One day I have to ask HOW it is safer or 'how it works'. I know the ground IS a good conductor, I use it as one of the 'wires' in my remote energy systems, can go 14 miles sending data.
 
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radas

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2022 LX2610HST
Mar 21, 2022
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+1 on the ground rod for our outbuilding subpanel. Here in the states it is required for a subpanel that is detached from the house. My attached garage subpanel does not have one but I plan on adding one just for the hell of it (it was recommended by the electrician that did my final hookup to the main panel and the local inspector mentioned it as an added safety).

Your feeder absolutely has to be clamped to the box or at a minimum, stapled in the wall cavity a minimum of 12" away from the panel and every 12" or so beyond that. I opted for both when I ran my 3-3-3-5 SER because of how heavy it was and a pain to move and bend.

If it was me, I'd scrap that panel and grab a 100amp SquareD subpanel with main breaker/more circuit capacity and leave it unbonded. Then add your 100amp breaker at your main panel to have two disconnect points when you decided to add circuits to the shop down the road (you will). I'd also recommend throwing in a 50amp circuit for a welder/mill/etc... Should you decided to add a 220v receptacle for one in the future. For reference, my miller multiprocess calls for a 50amp circuit but YMMV

Here's mine for reference (I added extra ground bars too, it helps when you add more circuits).

PXL_20220605_164110302.jpg
 
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awesome

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I understand about the feeder needing to be clamped but I won't bother. I'm not worried since it's protected buy the metal casing in the cable. It is clamped on the wall though. No danger of ripping it out of the box.

The other end of the cable, at the main panel, will have the proper clamp though. That part is being done by someone with more experience (not an electrician, but a guy that knows more than me. Used to work as a technician up in telephone posts for Bell).

I'll probably add a ground rod. Later. It's something that can be easily added after the fact. There's been a few houses that burned down around here lately. I'll check with them if I can pull out the rod with the tractor (bringing back this thread on topic with the usage of tractor :)
 
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Dieseldonato

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B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
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the main feed in needs to be mechanically secured to the box,same as all the wires for the circuits.
the reason for the disconnect/main breaker is SAFETY ! Unless you physically remove the feeding breaker from the house panel there's NO way someone can't 'flip it on' while you're working on the garage panel, also when you decide to add another circuit( you will.....), you can trip the panel main and work SAFELY.
Crazy thing is last year I bought used 'whole house panel' (100A,full of breakers) for same $$ as a 12 slot 'pony panel'

Never really understood the 'un bond the ground and neutral' idea for 'remote' subpanels. One day I have to ask HOW it is safer or 'how it works'. I know the ground IS a good conductor, I use it as one of the 'wires' in my remote energy systems, can go 14 miles sending data.
Just went through this when we got the solar system installed. Had to separated the grounds and neutrals in all the sub boxes. What a pain. Still neutral bonded at the main panel.
They did add a second ground rod off the eps. I thought that was odd as well. Passed the electrical inspection so I suppose they knew what they were doing.
 

Dieseldonato

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B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
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I understand about the feeder needing to be clamped but I won't bother. I'm not worried since it's protected buy the metal casing in the cable. It is clamped on the wall though. No danger of ripping it out of the box.

The other end of the cable, at the main panel, will have the proper clamp though. That part is being done by someone with more experience (not an electrician, but a guy that knows more than me. Used to work as a technician up in telephone posts for Bell).

I'll probably add a ground rod. Later. It's something that can be easily added after the fact. There's been a few houses that burned down around here lately. I'll check with them if I can pull out the rod with the tractor (bringing back this thread on topic with the usage of tractor :)
No offense but I'd be ashamed of that box if it were mine. The clamps are pennies on the dollar, and I can assure you that box wouldn't pass code down here.
 
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radas

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2022 LX2610HST
Mar 21, 2022
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I understand about the feeder needing to be clamped but I won't bother. I'm not worried since it's protected buy the metal casing in the cable. It is clamped on the wall though. No danger of ripping it out of the box.

The other end of the cable, at the main panel, will have the proper clamp though. That part is being done by someone with more experience (not an electrician, but a guy that knows more than me. Used to work as a technician up in telephone posts for Bell).

I'll probably add a ground rod. Later. It's something that can be easily added after the fact. There's been a few houses that burned down around here lately. I'll check with them if I can pull out the rod with the tractor (bringing back this thread on topic with the usage of tractor :)
You did solicit feedback to make it better, I would follow the clamp advice as well as others to ensure a safe, problem-free install. As @Dieseldonato and others mentioned, it's important to stay code compliant and also have a clean install. You did re-do your roof trusses based on professional guidance, and your structure turned out great I might add. Take a little bit of time to make sure this small part of the job is A+ as well. I also recommend having the installation inspected and approved by your local building authority.
 
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awesome

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Just went through this when we got the solar system installed. Had to separated the grounds and neutrals in all the sub boxes. What a pain. Still neutral bonded at the main panel.
They did add a second ground rod off the eps. I thought that was odd as well. Passed the electrical inspection so I suppose they knew what they were doing.
I'm not sure I understand all this talk about unbound ground. It never passed my mind to bond both together anyway. The infeed has a neutral AND a ground. So it was just natural to connect them separately. So maybe people refering to bonded/unbonded are saying this because their infeed doesnt have ground? I had no idea such cable could exist.
 

Dieseldonato

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B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
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I'm not sure I understand all this talk about unbound ground. It never passed my mind to bond both together anyway. The infeed has a neutral AND a ground. So it was just natural to connect them separately. So maybe people refering to bonded/unbonded are saying this because their infeed doesnt have ground? I had no idea such cable could exist.
So typically the ground and neutral have a tie strap between them in the main panel. For some reason all sub boxes are not allowed ro have the ground and main bonded together. Don't know why, doesn't make sense to me but that's part of the code down here in the states.
 

radas

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2022 LX2610HST
Mar 21, 2022
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I'm not sure I understand all this talk about unbound ground. It never passed my mind to bond both together anyway. The infeed has a neutral AND a ground. So it was just natural to connect them separately. So maybe people refering to bonded/unbonded are saying this because their infeed doesnt have ground? I had no idea such cable could exist.
Screenshot_20220605-151810.png


Here's a good explanation of bonding. There is typically a green fastener included with your panel that is for bonding. If you didn't have this fastener or didn't install the fastener, then you are ok (again, have an electrician and/or inspector look your install over to verify).
 
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awesome

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View attachment 81351

Here's a good explanation of bonding. There is typically a green fastener included with your panel that is for bonding. If you didn't have this fastener or didn't install the fastener, then you are ok (again, have an electrician and/or inspector look your install over to verify).
Ok, so bonding neutral to ground is something I've never heard of before, and after asking a professional, he confirmed that this is something you never wanna do. It never crossed my mind to do this because you'd be basically tying neutral to every metal parts in your house :s. So my wiring is ok. The ground rod is not required on the detached garage because the ground in the garage is tied to the rod at the house. I will add this rod anyway because it's easy to do.

About the feedback: don't worry, I am carefully considering every aspects of every advice I get here, and I am grateful for those.

The advice about a spare circuit is something I dont really need. I have a 2" pipe going to the roof in which all cable are going down to the panel. Adding another cable+breaker is easy. If I add a spare cable right now, chances are it's gonna end at a place completely opposite of where I'm gonna need it. I'd rather just make it easy to pass new wires from anywhere to anywhere.
 
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ejb11235

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BX23S, Braber BBR4G Box Blade
Jan 20, 2022
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Seattle, WA, USA
Here's mine for reference (I added extra ground bars too, it helps when you add more circuits).

That is literally the tidiest installation I have ever seen. The wiring is routed so cleanly it's like I can't even see it. 😂
 
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radas

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2022 LX2610HST
Mar 21, 2022
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That is literally the tidiest installation I have ever seen. The wiring is routed so cleanly it's like I can't even see it. 😂
😂😂😂 Haven't ran any thhn yet for my garage circuits. I have 1500 board feet of casing and moulding to install first unfortunately 😭
 
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radas

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2022 LX2610HST
Mar 21, 2022
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Ok, so bonding neutral to ground is something I've never heard of before, and after asking a professional, he confirmed that this is something you never wanna do. It never crossed my mind to do this because you'd be basically tying neutral to every metal parts in your house :s. So my wiring is ok. The ground rod is not required on the detached garage because the ground in the garage is tied to the rod at the house. I will add this rod anyway because it's easy to do.

About the feedback: don't worry, I am carefully considering every aspects of every advice I get here, and I am grateful for those.

The advice about a spare circuit is something I dont really need. I have a 2" pipe going to the roof in which all cable are going down to the panel. Adding another cable+breaker is easy. If I add a spare cable right now, chances are it's gonna end at a place completely opposite of where I'm gonna need it. I'd rather just make it easy to pass new wires from anywhere to anywhere.
Looks like CEC and NEC are a little different regarding ground rods in outbuildings based on quick reading. I did some digging on electrical forums and it looks like all the US folk recommend it and the Canada folk call for running 4 wire from a bonded main to an unbonded sub panel will suffice (I am not a licensed electrician, again verify with a master electrician in your area). It still doesn't hurt, but doesn't appear to be a requirement. Also Ontario code requires a disconnect on a subpanel in an out building but CEC doesn't specifically state... Being that you're in Ottawa, I see why you chose to forego. Interesting differences there.
 

awesome

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Being that you're in Ottawa, I see why you chose to forego. Interesting differences there.
I'm actually in Gatineau, on the Quebec side. So things might be different. We dont even need electrical inspections here. I think it's mandatory in Ontario.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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BX23-S
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That 'bonding' article in #91 doesn't explain WHY 'ground' and 'neutral' need to be disconnected on 'detached' buildings, it just says that 'ground' has to be continuous. Still 'fuzzy' an dyes Ontario has some 'interesting' ideas about how electrons flow..
 
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radas

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2022 LX2610HST
Mar 21, 2022
270
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Michigan
That 'bonding' article in #91 doesn't explain WHY 'ground' and 'neutral' need to be disconnected on 'detached' buildings, it just says that 'ground' has to be continuous. Still 'fuzzy' an dyes Ontario has some 'interesting' ideas about how electrons flow..
Wasn't the purpose, OP had asked what 'bonding' is which is defined there. The reason why a subpanel is not bonded and the main is bonded is highlighted here:

It is strange that Canada is so strict regarding certain aspects of electrical but so lax on others. A journeyman cannot do sidework without fines and legal trouble but no ground rods are required in outbuildings or building inspections in some territories... Very strange lol.

 
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Henro

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B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex.
May 24, 2019
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North of Pittsburgh PA
Wasn't the purpose, OP had asked what 'bonding' is which is defined there. The reason why a subpanel is not bonded and the main is bonded is highlighted here:

It is strange that Canada is so strict regarding certain aspects of electrical but so lax on others. A journeyman cannot do sidework without fines and legal trouble but no ground rods are required in outbuildings or building inspections in some territories... Very strange lol.

I got turned off by that video when the guy showed an electric drier hooked up as a 120 volt device. As far as I know, they are almost always 220 volt devices...figured the rest of the video was misguided...might have missed the point. Don't know...gave up at that point.

I was interested because I though the video might address why my remote shed sub panel needs a ground rod, when I ran all four conductors the same size. 2 power conductors, the grounded conductor, and the safety ground. All the same size...

Now I realize that a safety ground is not required to be the same size as the power conductors...but in my case all are the same...
 

GreensvilleJay

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BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
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Greensville,Ontario,Canada
it's a rather confusing issue really.
the 'don't bond' doesn't work with 240 volt equipment ( neutral is not used....)
I prefer the ground wire to be bigger than the rest, so it's conduct the 'bad' electrons away FASTER than a smaller wire would....
some of my panels USE Mother earth as the return, can get 15 miles of solid communications.
 
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