D650 Diesel pump timing

[4x4forks]

Hi All , after some advice on my D650 engine fitted in a b6100.
The engine has been a poor starter and has now been overhauled . I have got 0.5 oversized pistons ,new liners , New head and valves. Diesel pump and injectors both overhauled. Compression it as book
The engine would only run previously with the diesel pump retarded. I have removed shims to get timing back to F1 in the window but I am 1 shim away from this . Starting is seems poor . it will need glow even when hot after about 5 mins of shut down. It will need at least two or three attemps to start from cold.Once started it runs clean and strong.
Can anyone help as it is not starting as i believe it should and timing not possible to run as it should? Help please

 

[85Hokie]

Lots of pump/injector gurus here - wait a bit, no more than a day and you will have a excellent answer.

I will tell you this - I have two B7100 with the D750 engine, similar to yours and both require a good bit of glowing to start, one has 850 hours and the other 2000 hours. If I run it and let it sit, still take a little glow to go......cold I allow at least 10-15 seconds.

 

[4x4forks]

Ok thanks. At least I am not on my own

 

[4x4forks]

Just a quick update, I have been playing with removing and fitting shims. I am currently running one less shims than i originally had, and it will start at the first attempt, slow to clean up but first attempt never the less. Is it possible to get the flywheel on incorrectly? I was wandering if it was on in the wrong place and the timing marks would then be out!

 

[D2Cat]

You can not get the flywheel on incorrectly. The holes are off just enough from lining up that you need to start the bolts by hand until they are all started cleanly.

The IP needs to have the exact shims as when the engine was new and ran right. Each shim effects the timing. That's why when you remove an IP you always protect the shims and use them again.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Was the block decked?
That's to say did they surface the top of the block?
If they did, how much did they take off?
That answer is what you need.
If you don't know that number, then you need to do a spill test to set the timing, impossible to do with the engine in because the marks you need are hidden by the bellhousing.

If they did not deck the block, then there is no reason that it shouldn't take the exact same shims as before, it's not really a variable, as it never changes, even with a new pump (the shim could matches the block, not the pump).

You aren't using any gasket sealer on the shims are you?
or if you are is it a liquid, and very thin?

If the flywheel was put on wrong then they would have had to srip out the bolts or break them, it's impossible to put the flywheel on cleanly without damaging something, last one i seen that they did that, they had 2 bolts stripped and one broken off in the crank.

Also to note that is the flywheel were on wrong the injection points would be a whole piston off, so it would not even come close to starting.

Another thing I have also seen is that someone set the front timing marks off one tooth, this throws the whole system out of whack.
Did you line up all three gear set exactly?

Did you replace the glow plugs?
How about the injectors?
New fuel and filter?

 

[4x4forks]

Thanks for the reply's . Yes the timing marks on the gears are exact. I have stripped and double checked. The fly wheel fitted on ok no bolt damage or issues so can think that flywheel is fitted in correct position . Thats one thing to discount. The pump was not on the timing marks when I bought the tractor,
It is a very early d650 -A serial number 00274 . I have found out that it is 0.5 oversized pistons . I believe it has been played with to keep it running in the past so not sure of its history. I can not say weather the block has been decked or not. I have been playing again today and I removed more shims and I now have the F1 mark in the bell housing window if not on the line. It starts but sounds quick " knocky"! How many shims would you normally find under the diesel pump? Thanks for the help felles

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Thanks for the reply's . Yes the timing marks on the gears are exact. I have stripped and double checked. The fly wheel fitted on ok no bolt damage or issues so can think that flywheel is fitted in correct position . Thats one thing to discount. The pump was not on the timing marks when I bought the tractor,
It is a very early d650 -A serial number 00274 . I have found out that it is 0.5 oversized pistons . I believe it has been played with to keep it running in the past so not sure of its history. I can not say weather the block has been decked or not. I have been playing again today and I removed more shims and I now have the F1 mark in the bell housing window if not on the line. It starts but sounds quick " knocky"! How many shims would you normally find under the diesel pump? Thanks for the help felles

There is no common count or dimension as the sims are variable sizes as no two blocks are the same.

You will need to do a spill test, the manual point out exactly how to do that and if done the timing will be right on the money.

You never said did you do any rebuild/cleaning work to either the injection pump or injectors?

Did you check the resistance on the glow plugs and or replace them with new ones?

 

[4x4forks]

The diesel pump and the fuel injectors have both been overhauled and tested. The glow plugs are all new. What I have tried is glowing for the book time but keeping the glow on when cranking and it is starting much better, Making progress

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The diesel pump and the fuel injectors have both been overhauled and tested. The glow plugs are all new. What I have tried is glowing for the book time but keeping the glow on when cranking and it is starting much better, Making progress

Put all the original shims back in as it should be and see what it does.

 

[4x4forks]

I started at that point and it would take three attempts to get it to start and smoked alot.
I have reduced the number of shims to get the F1 mark in the window , It currently starts first time with glow but sounds a bit knocky at low revs.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I started at that point and it would take three attempts to get it to start and smoked alot.
I have reduced the number of shims to get the F1 mark in the window , It currently starts first time with glow but sounds a bit knocky at low revs.

Get what to the F1 mark?

 

[4x4forks]

I started from a point of all shims original. I have reduced to a point that I can now see F1 in the window. It starts first time, A bit smokey but clears and a bit knocky at low engine speed but revs cleanly

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I don't understand, what reduced the shim count to get what to F1?

 

[FishLife]

I would have to think if the F1 mark on the fly wheel is lined up with the mark on the plate and is injecting fuel for cylinder one at that moment, it is in time. You may still have an issue with the injector pump or injectors even thought they were overhauled.

 

[4x4forks]

the manual states that the F1 mark on the flywheel is the correct fuel timing mark . This being 25 Degree before top dead center . This mark is now in the window but still not fully correct.

 

[4x4forks]

Shes a runner. Put a finishing topper on to give the new engine a load