Cylinder wall and head "erosion"?

[speedy5966]

Hi all! Well, "erosion" is the best way I can describe it, it's almost like it rusted away or something. Please see the enclosed pics, and let me know if anybody has any idea of what caused it. Was thinking maybe some time before I bought it, it sat for a long time with an exhaust valve open, but the cylinder walls look good, so I doubt it.

History: From the day I got it, used, the center cylinder has always been slow to start firing. Since it ran fine once it warmed up, I always just figured it was a weak or bad glow plug. Well, recently, it started spewing coolant out of the radiator as soon as it was started, so I figured it was time for a head gasket. Once I tore it down, this is what I found.

I don't work it very hard, in fact, the only time it gets above a fast idle is when I use my brush hog. What are the chances of it holding, if I just put new gaskets and seals in it, and put it back together?

Thanks!!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Most likely a cracked head, that has been steaming that cylinder for quite some time.
Pop out the pre chamber and look for a crack in there.

 

[100 td]

Yikes, you sure it wasn't upside down in a dam before you got it!

 

[speedy5966]

Thanks, Wolfman! I wondered about a cracked head as well, but I've never seen white smoke at all. I've been wrenching on cars most of my life, but this is my first diesel engine, so I hope you'll pardon the dumb question. How do I remove the prechamber? I looked on Google, and found where some of them are removed with a slide hammer and an adapter, but it doesn't look like that will work with this one.

100td, I thought that same thing myself!

 

[outpost22]

I've seen similar "erosion" in a gas engine due to exhaust pipe being vertical and ingesting rain water. Does your exhaust stack mount vertical or horizontal? If vertical, this damage could be water ingestion. If horizontal, I would go with cracked/warped head as a suspect.

 

[speedy5966]

It was vertical when I got it, but I changed it to horizontal, for this exact reason. I'm leaning towards water damage as well, It's just weird that it's so sporadic, and that the cylinder wall is undamaged. I can only guess that maybe it was at TDC, so the water didn't contact the cylinder wall? I think I'm just gonna put it back together and see what happens. The most it will cost me is a head gasket.

 

[Mark15]

My center cylinder was the same way. While I can't rule out rain ingestion, it also had a leaky injector on that cylinder. It would leak down after shut off and smoke quite a bit until the excess fuel was burned off at start up.

I have also read use of ether can cause this kind of damage as well.

 

[speedy5966]

Interesting, Mark. Did it do it after it was already warmed up, and u shut it off for a few minutes? Mine does smoke quite a bit at cold startup, but I just figured that was because the engine was cold. Warm restarts are pretty well smoke free.

 

[rbargeron]

How are the valves and seats? If one is leaking more than the other there is more gas velocity toward the leak during combustion, worsening the errosion. With the head cleaned up and lightly resurfaced, a new gasket with adhesive sealant (Permatex Copper Seal?) should hold up ok.The chamber on that cylinder has increased in TDC volume so will always start hard and might not produce full power.

 

[L3010HST]

I don't like the looks of the deck surface from the cylinder bore in that cylinder wall picture. It looks raised above the deck height surface. You'll never get a 100% seal even with a new gasket. I guess try with a new head gasket, but IMHO it'll not last long if at all and will soon pressurize your coolant system again. If it were mine, I'd resurface the block deck, heads and have it magnafluxed for micro cracks. Good Luck.

 

[D2Cat]

I agree with L3010HST and others, at least take the head to a machine shop to have magnafluxed and then check valves and seats. They can advise you of condition of the head and outcomes of your doing more work to it or not.

If you put it back together with a new gasket and it fails, you've just spend a good portion of the funds needed to KNOW the condition of the head....and what about your time...?

 

[speedy5966]

Rbargeron: Valves and seats seem fine. The exhaust valve face is a little concave, but all are clean and shiny all the way around. Great point on the increased chamber volume at TDC, I hadn't thought of that. I was forgetting that diesels have such small chambers. The amount of missing material could very well have a significant effect. When I get it back together, I'll do a dry and wet compression test, and see where I'm at.

3010: I had thought about decking the block, as well, but I'm really trying to avoid that kind of down time. And, if I do that, I'm gonna replace that sleeve while I'm at it. If I do one, I may as well do them all, then we're at a full blown rebuild. I realize that this is the right way to do it, but we've been seriously considering selling/trading it for an upgrade. I'd hate to spend all that time and money, then trade it off. I will, however, check to see if the liner is indeed above the deck surface. If it is, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do.

D2Cat: I totally get what you're saying, and I agree. In order to get it magnafluxed, they will have to clean it. I only got one quote, and it was right at $100. Now add the cost of a valve job and new guides, and a resurface, and I'd guess we're right around $300. I can get a new, loaded head for $430, shipped. The head gasket is $46. I'm willing to risk that $46, provided the deck is OK.

OK, one more question: are the prechambers supposed to sit totally flush with the rest of the head surface?(I assume they are) Mine are just a bit above the surface. I haven't measured it, but I can feel it pretty easily.
Thanks very much for everyone's input, I'm learning a lot!

 

[lugbolt]

That engine will never run properly with the cylinder in that condition. Will it run? Probably. But that cylinder will be weak. Work it hard enough for a long enough time, and you may find yourself with more than just minor cylinder wall damage.

Diesel engines need to compress air. The heat from compression is what ignites the fuel that is injected into the cylinder. Larger engines-like in cars and trucks and trains have a LOT more volume of air in the cylinder and thus they can get away with more imperfections. Smaller engines don't have that luxury. This makes them intolerant of imperfections in the piston, rings, head, gasket, and cylinder wall.

 

[Mark15]

To answer your earlier question Speedy, the injector leak down didn't seem to be an issue when shut off for just a few minutes. We think it may have been a slow dribble that when it sat for several hours it would accumulate a fair bit of fuel in the cylinder.

I didn't magnaflux my head either, for the same reason you mention. After having that much done to it at a shop you are close to the cost of just getting a new head.

I did lap the valves, clean out most of the carbon, and lightly resurfaced it with sandpaper on a large flat plane. My combustion chambers were nearly flush, but they would skim the sandpaper a bit more than the surrounding head when I was resurfacing it.

If you have a machinists style steel ruler, you can use that to see if the engine deck is raised near that eroded edge.

My head was similar eroded like yours, but I can't comment yet on how it will run. Engine is back together, but I am doing a restoration clean up and paint on the chassis while I have it all separated. I have that nearly back together now and hope to test fire the engine soon!

 

[Mark15]

Here is how mine looked after light resurfacing.

And a couple of how it and the chassis looks now, getting ready for install. Fingers crossed it fires up and runs ok.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

With the injector out you can insert a dowel and pop the prechambers out, and yes it's very common to have them stick up a little.

 

[L3010HST]

3010: I had thought about decking the block, as well, but I'm really trying to avoid that kind of down time. And, if I do that, I'm gonna replace that sleeve while I'm at it. If I do one, I may as well do them all, then we're at a full blown rebuild. I realize that this is the right way to do it, but we've been seriously considering selling/trading it for an upgrade. I'd hate to spend all that time and money, then trade it off. I will, however, check to see if the liner is indeed above the deck surface. If it is, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do.

Agree, selling/trading changes the ball game completely, rather if you're plans were to keep it for many years and be a reliable workhorse.

With that said, here's my thoughts/decisions if she were mine.

1 - DIY method Mark15 did + try on block.
2 - Just $100 head resurface and DIY block.
3 - New head, DIY block.
4 - Just throw it back together with two head gaskets, tons of RTV and over torque the you know what out of it

Any attempt above (except #4 haha), with a song and a prayer, has a better chance of holding than the condition it's in now.

 

[rbargeron]

Interesting dynamic here. When somebody has a tractor that needs work, most of us think of ways to keep the cost down, protecting our fellow member from checkbook damage. But when a member buys a tractor whose prior owner saved money by throwing a crutch at it, we're apt to side with the new owner, criticizing half-measures we may have thought ok in the other case

As the '70s and '80s tractors get older and need more serious repairs, I'm advocating fixing them well, respecting the high quality engineering and workmanship that went into them. These machines are worth doing what's needed to preserve their full function. My 2 cents. Dick B

 

[L3010HST]

I'm all about fixing it right or go home, especially if you're keeping it and/or for the long-term. Personally I think the bailing wire, chewing gum, duct tape methods to save a buck or two is a joke and will bite you in the rear soon afterward. But since the OP doesn't want to spend the time/$ to do the repair correctly and considering selling to make it all go away with his buyers remorse, I find nothing wrong with my Dynamics to his situation. He'd never get his $$ back in a sale if it were repaired the correct way.

One thing I didn't mention to my final suggestions in conclusion, was to have a conscience in disclosing the issue, what was done to it to get it running again and it be priced accordingly to the next guy who may buy it knowing upfront what it needs to be reliable.

:cheers:

 

[speedy5966]

OK all, I decided just to bite the bullet, and replace the head. I got a new one, loaded with valves, from Kumar brothers for $429 through fleabay. I've had good luck with their parts, and when I did have a problem, they made it right without a single issue. The old head was going to need new guides anyway, and even with new guides, the missing material would still be an issue. Could the old one be welded up and re-machined? probably, but at what cost, and with what degree of certainty of success? I haven't gotten around to checking the deck yet, but I will likely do the DIY surfacing, something I was considering anyway.

As several have mentioned, I did have the guilt feeling about putting a band aid on it, and selling it. If I was going to sell it, I most likely would have traded it in at a dealership, and would probably not even have mentioned it to them. I know that's a little underhanded, but I figure they would have screwed me on the trade-in price, and likely wouldn't have passed the info on to the next buyer anyway. In that situation, it's screw or be screwed, and I've had enough of the latter.

Mark15, that's gonna be a darn nice looking tractor when you're done with it!

Thanks again, everybody! I appreciate all the input, and I'm comfortable with my decision.