What were the engineers thinking?

GeoHorn

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That would be nice but the way the LA525 is welded up makes adding the flanges difficult. Here is a quick and dirty of what I am contemplating. Pin would be retained in the loader arms with two HD external snap rings. I have several mill lengths of 1" 1045 TGP in the rack which is a dead fit in the arms so all I need do is part off to OAL, groove, counterbore, and drill and tap for the grease fitting. Probably 30-45 minutes including setup to make a pair.

Dan

EDIT: This wasn't on the schedule for today but since things got chatty I added it. Here are two new pins ready to be drilled and tapped. About as easy as it gets.
That’s PRETTY WORK! Thanks for sharing.

BTW, when I purchased Quick-Attach adaptors for my FEL similar to the original Kubota style, I installed the pins and (ignorantly/forgetting to follow my own advice) tightened up the locating-bolts until they were snug. Some months later, while re-reading the Operators’ Manual I was reminded the bolts are supposed to be “loose” ..not tight… so I went out to re-examine them.
Guess what? The bolts, even tho’ snugged tight,… still allow the pin to move,…as the bolt-hole thru the pins is oversized and therefore a snug/tight locating-bolt cannot prevent the pin from having ample movement. doh.

My guess is that a roll pin or any pin/bolt/etc which was staked even…would perform just as well.
But, obviously, if the bolt head or nut were sheared off completely by rough-useage…then it would be likely to be lost…. same as lock-rings(although the shearing action would have to occur in a different manner.) ;)
 
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TheOldHokie

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Just a thought about your design. Is the kubota style supposed to limit turning forces on the greased inner area where a change like yours could have the pins turning at the outer points too?
With snap rings the pins can rotate freely. With bolts the pins can not rotate in the SSQA adapthercand always rotate in the arms. I dont see a problem with that but if you can articulate one I will be happy to listen.

EDIT: After some more thought and a little testing I do see a problem and this is not going to work. The greasing arrangement only pumps grease into the arms and little if any makes it into the ears on the SSQA adapter. You dont want the pin rotating in the ears without adequate lubrication which is why the factory has them locked to the ears. So back to the drawing board.

My initial thought was to use a roll pin in place of the bolts but the holes in the factory pins are oversize. Since I have two new pins I will just put a 1/4 hole for a roll pin in one end and use it in place of the snap rings. Essentially the same as factory bolts but nothing sticking out to get damaged.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Dan
 
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Mark_BX25D

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Engineers can only design things according to the specifications.

Engineers can only design things according to the financial and time constraints that management puts on them.

It is routine for engineers to grind their teeth as they are forced to do sup-par work to keep their jobs.
 

Lil Foot

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To elaborate on above:
Also keep in mind that design engineers are usually over-ruled by production engineers.
I spent most my of my career in R&D, where we produced reliable, robust products, that were then made less reliable, less robust by production engineers who were mainly interested in lowering costs, generating more profit. When the stockholder is king, quality usually suffers.
 
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Mark_BX25D

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When the stockholder is king, quality usually suffers.
When the largest stockholders are institutions that don't care about anything other than how much they can buy for today, and sell for tomorrow, that's very true.

Their idea of "long term" is next week.
 
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Chanceywd

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With snap rings the pins can rotate freely. With bolts the pins can not rotate in the SSQA adapthercand always rotate in the arms. I dont see a problem with that but if you can articulate one I will be happy to listen.

EDIT: After some more thought and a little testing I do see a problem and this is not going to work. The greasing arrangement only pumps grease into the arms and little if any makes it into the ears on the SSQA adapter. You dont want the pin rotating in the ears without adequate lubrication which is why the factory has them locked to the ears. So back to the drawing board.

My initial thought was to use a roll pin in place of the bolts but the holes in the factory pins are oversize. Since I have two new pins I will just put a 1/4 hole for a roll pin in one end and use it in place of the snap rings. Essentially the same as factory bolts but nothing sticking out to get damaged.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Dan
You are welcome, I just see that it had potential to not turn at the inner point and cause accelerated wear at the outer points which could be hard to repair. Thank you for bringing the lost bolt problem to mine. I checked and mine are still there but some of the others the nuts have backed off. At the very least I need to pick up some extra bolts and locking nuts of both sizes in use. Then check them more often, maybe every time I take it out.

Bill
 

TheOldHokie

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You are welcome, I just see that it had potential to not turn at the inner point and cause accelerated wear at the outer points which could be hard to repair. Thank you for bringing the lost bolt problem to mine. I checked and mine are still there but some of the others the nuts have backed off. At the very least I need to pick up some extra bolts and locking nuts of both sizes in use. Then check them more often, maybe every time I take it out.

Bill
The primary value I see in the bolts is cost of production. Self locking pins like Kubota has used for years would work just as well but cost a few pennies more.

Dan
 

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GeoHorn

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To elaborate on above:
Also keep in mind that design engineers are usually over-ruled by production engineers.
I spent most my of my career in R&D, where we produced reliable, robust products, that were then made less reliable, less robust by production engineers who were mainly interested in lowering costs, generating more profit. When the stockholder is king, quality usually suffers.
When the largest stockholders are institutions that don't care about anything other than how much they can buy for today, and sell for tomorrow, that's very true.

Their idea of "long term" is next week.
Aren’t the “stockholders“…. the OWNERS..??
(I don’t believe stock-companies are the only companies to produce shoddy products…. and sometimes they produce the better ones.). ;)
 

802Driver

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How about drilling a new cross hole 90 degrees from the original?
Retaining screws would be a little more removed from the "action".
That's what I was thinking as well, rotate the hole 90 degrees.
 
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Lil Foot

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Aren’t the “stockholders“…. the OWNERS..??
(I don’t believe stock-companies are the only companies to produce shoddy products…. and sometimes they produce the better ones.). ;)
That would be true if the management cared IN THE SLIGHTEST about the product or the customer. I worked for a major aerospace firm that used to be the gold standard, and it now the laughing stock of our industry. The CEO and his cronies have only one goal in mind, increase the stock price at any cost, so their salaries & bonuses will be larger. PERIOD. Upon taking over, they immediately began laying people off, put the buildings, parking lots, vehicles, machine shops & equipment, aircraft hangars, and well up for sale, began selling off any & all equipment, anything to generate cash, no matter what the cost. They require the employees to do more & more with less & less. In fact, the CEO has stated publicly that he hates employees, and would fire us all if he could. (no salaries, more cash)
A sad state of affairs, certainly.
 
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Chanceywd

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The primary value I see in the bolts is cost of production. Self locking pins like Kubota has used for years would work just as well but cost a few pennies more.

Dan
I finally got my retirement kubota in february this year to supplemant my 8N, I am on a learning curve on the history of them. I didn't know they used that style in the past and i was looking at them as a replacemnt today.
 

lugbolt

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That would be true if the management cared IN THE SLIGHTEST about the product or the customer. I worked for a major aerospace firm that used to be the gold standard, and it now the laughing stock of our industry. The CEO and his cronies have only one goal in mind, increase the stock price at any cost, so their salaries & bonuses will be larger. PERIOD. Upon taking over, they immediately began laying people off, put the buildings, parking lots, vehicles, machine shops & equipment, aircraft hangars, and well up for sale, began selling off any & all equipment, anything to generate cash, no matter what the cost. They require the employees to do more & more with less & less. In fact, the CEO has stated publicly that he hates employees, and would fire us all if he could. (no salaries, more cash)
A sad state of affairs, certainly.

sounds like I'd be outta there in a new york second if the ceo was caught saying that. Either that or the CEO would be ousted asap. A company is only as good as it's employees that get the work done. No employees no work nothing to sell, no income kaput. But there are many who would disagree, and one of them sits on a throne previously occupied by one of the smartest businesspeople that have graced the usa.
 
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mcmxi

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Went to grease the LA525 loader today and discovered the retaining cap screws in both lower bucket pins were MIA. This has all of the hallmarks of a chronic issue. The ends of the screws stick out on the bottom side just begging for the nut to be caught and snapped off when grading with the bucket, snow plow, grapple, etc. Contemplating possible fixes for what looks to be a poor design - e.g. using roll pins or threading the cross drilled hole in the pivot pins and using shorter cap screws. Appreciate any thoughts or relevant experiences.

Dan
On my MX (LA1055) this is the position of the equivalent pin with the bucket flat on the ground. Not sure how the nut or bolt would be vulnerable. Is the pivot point much closer to the ground with the LA525? I had a BX for five years and never had an issue with those pins.

mx_fel.jpg
 

GeoHorn

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sounds like I'd be outta there in a new york second if the ceo was caught saying that. Either that or the CEO would be ousted asap. A company is only as good as it's employees that get the work done. No employees no work nothing to sell, no income kaput. But there are many who would disagree, and one of them sits on a throne previously occupied by one of the smartest businesspeople that have graced the usa.
Why anyone would admire a “businessman” who screwed employees and virtually every contractor who ever worked on one of his failed projects is beyond me., not to mention that anyone who knows anything about any particular endeavor would know that experience is what counts. He had Zero experience in how things actually work. An executive/businessman says “jump” and everyone better jump… but that ain’t the way government by the people works… it works by consensus…and he didn’t have a clue how anything works while your “smartest businessman” was SHi…, I mean, while he was sitting…. “on the throne”….
 
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Mark_BX25D

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Aren’t the “stockholders“…. the OWNERS..??
Technically, yes, but there is a universe of difference between individual investors and the institutional investors on Wall Street. The individual usually wants something long term. Institutional investors consider one day to be long term.

The difference in how companies are run when their entire board and senior executives care only about the day to day stock price, and a company that is interested in being profitable and stable for decades, is not just immense, in fact, they are antithetical to each other.
 

GeoHorn

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It was a rhetorical question.
 

lugbolt

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I had to remove a roll pin on an excavator bucket pin once. Mind you, the pin was about 9/16" outside diameter and about 5" in OAL. PO damaged the bucket such that one end of the pin was mostly inaccessible, thus the only way the pin was coming out was by making a hole in the other side, then trying to beat it out. It had to be beat out that way because the "other" (open) end was mushroomed over severely.

It would NOT come out, no air hammer, no hammer and pin punch, it didn't want out. The options were then (1) torch it out, (2) drill it out far enough to beat the bucket pin hard enough to bust the remained of the roll pin off, or cut the entire pin mount off and weld a new one on.

Found out real quick that the roll pin was undrillable, if that is a word. The pin was harder than the drill bit. A $40 cobalt 1/2" bit wouldn't touch it, rather the roll pin chipped the edges of the bit.

Tried to torch it out but there is so much dirt and junk down inside it, that it made it a whole lot less fun to deal with. Eventually got most of it hot, then had my coworker hit the bucket pin with a BIG air hammer, which sheared the hot roll pin enough to beat it the rest of the way out.

So on that job, the customer was quoted $62 to replace the pin and bushings before the machine was seen (plus parts). Shop tech (me) got about $9 of that in commission. But it cost me a $40 drill bit. But the positive side of that is, I learnt some things!

These things can really be stuck, and they can take some time to get em out.

Oddly, just a few weeks ago I had a dowel pin break off of a camshaft/drive sprocket assembly, and I could not believe it, but no bent valves! Pulled the cam out, thought "hmm...how am I gonna get that out". Figured it was harder than hammered hell. Why not try anyway. Grabbed 1/8" drill bit, started in, and it was as soft as butter. Nabbed a LH drill and it caught it, then just pulled it right out. 5 minutes-maybe. Dowel pins are normally pretty hard. Maybe case hardened...dunno...that one was soft! I think that was the luckiest I've ever been in my mechanic'ing life.

External clips are ok, but I've seen them come off and/or get broken. Not often, but it happens. They do spin with the pin which I like.
 

Chanceywd

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Thanks for sharing your story Lugbolt,

Reminds me of some of the fun times in my work and at home. One in particular was a broken off bolt in a transmission mount on my Gremlin of all the cars you could have, It was of course in aluminum and I was working in the driveway with only ramps. I tried the Easy Out routine never having it work for me. I hate those things and their false hope. Fortunately I was able to get a drill for the EO to go thru and stay centered.
The EO of course snapped so now I have that to deal with. Couldn't get that piece out and no torch set in those days for me so I tried drilling and just ruined bits. I had for some reason some carbide burrs. I was able to drill that broken bolt and EO like butter and with a cape chisel get the rest of the bolt out.
That was about 40 years ago on a 78 gremlin.

Bill