Towing B2601 with 14 ft trailer - SA or TA

B737

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
LX3310
Jun 9, 2019
1,749
1,693
113
New Jersey
I'm really slow this morning and still not seeing the value of @NorthwoodsLife derating his trailer. Obviously he wouldn't be in compliance with the stickers on his truck or Ford's published specs if he were to load up the trailer to it's GVWR of 15k, but as long as he keeps it under 12.5k I don't see why he would get a ticket.
add more caffeine :)

His truck has a GCVW rating of 22,000 pounds, this is specific to his truck. His truck is rated at 10,000 pounds. His trailer is rated at 14,000 pounds.

DOT rules don't care what you are carrying, they only look at the limitations of what is rated.

10,000 pounds + 14,000 pounds = 24,000 pounds. This has exceeded his 22,000 GCVW rating by 2,000 pounds.

Forget about the 26k, that is simply a blanket limit and a 'given'. The rest is specific to each of our vehicles, commercial or not. The GCVW rating is found in the published manufactures towing guide for that model year and vehicle configuration.

Here is another example... (private not commercial use)

My truck is GVWR for 10,000 pounds. Its GCWR is 23,500. My trailer WAS rated for 15,000 pounds. I needed to ask them to de-rate it and stamp the placard as "13,500". This is so I didnt exceed the GCVWR of 23,500, otherwise if I was pulled over and they looked at this rating I would be in violation, even though I'm only pulling around 6,000 pounds.

:coffee:

Because he is private AND under 26k, he doesn't need to stop at a weigh station. However, any of us could be pulled over at any time and inspected, or if there were an 'event' that would cause further scrutiny it would come up there.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

GreensvilleJay

Well-known member

Equipment
BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
4,369
1,312
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
yes, it's what's 'on the sticker' that counts ! Pulling that trailer EMPTY is 'technically' a violation under the law.
MFRS up here 'derate' most of their SA trailers to 2990#, to NOT have to put brakes on them as ANY trailer hauling 3501# HAS to have brakes......

Ran into a similar issue buying a house and getting a mortgage. Since I had a 10K limit on my credit card, the bank reduced the lending amount by, yup, 10K, as I 'could' max out that ccard and not pay the mortgage...
 

mcmxi

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M6060HDC, MX6000HSTC, MX6000HST (sold), BX25TLB (sold), GL7000
Feb 9, 2021
1,652
1,517
113
NW Montana
Does anyone have any links to the DOT regulations pertaining to the the non-commercial use of trailers? I've found some MT regulations but no Federal regulations. Part of the problem is that this information isn't easy to find.
 

B737

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
LX3310
Jun 9, 2019
1,749
1,693
113
New Jersey
I think that's by design.

The GCVW rating is found in the published manufactures towing guide for that model year and vehicle configuration. (this is typically specific to engine, drivetrain, cab, axle ratio, ect)

Some specific rules will vary by state. It's best to focus in on your state. Sometimes state law enforcement will have a landline you can call to ask these questions too. I tried to learn this stuff, then spent a few minutes on the phone with a trooper who helped as well.

In NJ someone can hop in a private motor home bus that weighs 30,000 pounds and just go drive around :ROFLMAO: but if our bumper pull rating exceeds 26k we need a CDL wtf?! some of the stuff makes no sense. Some states will have a trigger if the trailer is rated over 10k as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

mcmxi

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M6060HDC, MX6000HSTC, MX6000HST (sold), BX25TLB (sold), GL7000
Feb 9, 2021
1,652
1,517
113
NW Montana
The GCVW rating is found in the published manufactures towing guide for that model year and vehicle configuration. (this is typically specific to engine, drivetrain, cab, axle ratio, ect)
I realize that, but I'm interested in seeing a written rule or regulation that clearly shows that @NorthwoodsLife or I are violating a state or federal law by pulling an empty 14k or 15k trailer. I've looked through the information below but couldn't find anything.

 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

B737

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
LX3310
Jun 9, 2019
1,749
1,693
113
New Jersey
you're expecting to find something saying exceeding a rating or limitation is against the rules? ;)
 

mcmxi

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M6060HDC, MX6000HSTC, MX6000HST (sold), BX25TLB (sold), GL7000
Feb 9, 2021
1,652
1,517
113
NW Montana
you're expecting to find something saying exceeding a rating or limitation is against the rules? ;)
Just a written document stating that the actual GCVR cannot exceed the manufacturers GCVR.

I called the local trailer dealer that sold me three trailers and then had an interesting conversation with the Montana Department of Transportation (MDT) in Helena. I spoke with Tom and he told me that no such document exists for non-commerical use of a trailer and that the manufacturer's GCWR is nothing more than a guideline for consumers and that there are no Federal or State regulations pertaining to exceeding those values.

He told me that the only possible issue is if I exceeded 26,000lb of GCVW and didn't have a CDL. He also made the point that I would have to voluntarily stop at a weigh station in order for MCS to determine that my GCVW exceeded 26,000lb. He also mentioned that if I convinced MCS that I was not a commercial entity that they would very likely let me go on my way with nothing more than some advice to not do it regularly.

That's the situation here in MT.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Dieseldonato

Active member

Equipment
B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
300
150
43
Pa
Just a written document stating that the actual GCVR cannot exceed the manufacturers GCVR.

I called the local trailer dealer that sold me three trailers and then had an interesting conversation with the Montana Department of Transportation (MDT) in Helena. I spoke with Tom and he told me that no such document exists for non-commerical use of a trailer and that the manufacturer's GCWR is nothing more than a guideline for consumers and that there are no Federal or State regulations pertaining to exceeding those values.

He told me that the only possible issue is if I exceeded 26,000lb of GCVW and didn't have a CDL. He also made the point that I would have to voluntarily stop at a weigh station in order for MCS to determine that my GCVW exceeded 26,000lb. He also mentioned that if I convinced MCS that I was not a commercial entity that they would very likely let me go on my way with nothing more than some advice to not do it regularly.

That's the situation here in MT.
Your assuming a lot and it may be your state is nicer then others. I'll give 2 examples.
First is my personal trailer (well co-owner.) 14k dump trailer. Redid the roof and was hauling the old shingles off to the dump. Like always the DOT cop was just up the road from the dump and pulled me over. (This is 100% normal around here.) I was ok since in a class A CDL holder for hauling a trailer over 10k lbs, but he got me because u didn't have my Truck registered for the full combination weight of the truck and trailer. (I never heard of this for personal use) after explaining it was my trailer, and I was not hauling for anyone else, he explained it didn't matter. If I was hauling a trailer over 10k lbs I needed ro register the truck for the total combination weight. Got a nasty fine that made the $600.00 per year registration seem cheap.
Example 2. We hired a young kid at the township and since he didn't have his class A. We didn't let him haul much of anything other then our little 12k trailer and the skid loader. Now normally we didn't catch any crap being municipal, but we were helping another township and needed him to haul the skid loader. He got pulled over and sighted for not having a class A and hauling a trailer over 10k lbs. Even though he didn't exceed the gcwr, and was loaded roughly around 9klbs with the skid loader and trailer weight. I had to run and pick him up. There's a lot of stupid laws that we don't know about till we get pulled over.
I'll also note around here they class commercial as anyone standing to profit from what they arw hauling. Ie, racing guys, horse shows, scrap metal. Have had people I know pulled over for a whole lot of reasons, tried to fight it and ended up loosing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

mcmxi

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M6060HDC, MX6000HSTC, MX6000HST (sold), BX25TLB (sold), GL7000
Feb 9, 2021
1,652
1,517
113
NW Montana
I was ok since in a class A CDL holder for hauling a trailer over 10k lbs, but he got me because u didn't have my Truck registered for the full combination weight of the truck and trailer. (I never heard of this for personal use) after explaining it was my trailer, and I was not hauling for anyone else, he explained it didn't matter. If I was hauling a trailer over 10k lbs I needed ro register the truck for the total combination weight.
Did you look up your state regulations to confirm this or did you assume that the DOT employee was correct? It seems like it's a good revenue stream for your state.

If a rule isn't listed here it's not a rule where I live.

 

Dieseldonato

Active member

Equipment
B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
300
150
43
Pa
The first one with my truck I took to court. So yeah, I was chided like a little kid because I should have known the law changed however many years ago. Just depends on the cop, their mood, and what obscure laws are being pushed that day. Only time I heard of anyone getting out of a fine was a trucking company hauling fill from a job sight. The dot cop pulled every truck over every time they left the sight and fined them for tiny little holes in their tarpers. The company took him to court and the judge threw the fines out and knocked the cop down a peg. That slowed it up for a little, we have a new dot cop and he's setting the world on fire. He's hard ro get one by. Found some loop hole to get a bunch of customer harvesting guys a few years ago. It's technically not agg if your paid to do a service and haul a product you don't own to the co-op or mill for storage or processing. It's commercial just like anything else. He was taken to court over that and now everyone that works with my buddy had to get their class A. Supposedly it's no different then hauling a load of potatoes to a grocery store. Keeps you on your toes for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

dirtydeed

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
B2650 BH77, BX23TLBM, box blade, rear blade, flail mower, Stump Grinder
Dec 8, 2017
2,051
1,220
113
Wind Gap, PA
Dieseldonato- thanks for the explanation. They will get you one way or another if they want to. I'm in PA as well.

I have also been told that if you haul a trailer over 10K, you need a medical card. When I asked my dr about where to go for the physical in order to get a medical card, he thought I was asking for a "weed" card.

Anyway, I have not looked into the issue any further of needing a medical card for towing a 10K trailer.
 

B737

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
LX3310
Jun 9, 2019
1,749
1,693
113
New Jersey
in NJ they dont care about individual trailers over 10k, they are looking at combine weight. But, it appears as though PA does care about trailers over 10k, which is where my trailer will be. I better fly low under the radar getting that thing to NJ :ROFLMAO:

EDIT:
Actually come to think of it, since its not commercial they prob don't care....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Dieseldonato

Active member

Equipment
B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
300
150
43
Pa
Dieseldonato- thanks for the explanation. They will get you one way or another if they want to. I'm in PA as well.

I have also been told that if you haul a trailer over 10K, you need a medical card. When I asked my dr about where to go for the physical in order to get a medical card, he thought I was asking for a "weed" card.

Anyway, I have not looked into the issue any further of needing a medical card for towing a 10K trailer.
I get mine done at med express. Just call ahead and make sure there's a Dr on staff that day that does them. It was around $90.00. Had one before I had a cdl, but that was a work requirement at the machine shop. I assumed insurance played some part in us having to get it. 🤷‍♂️.
 

Dieseldonato

Active member

Equipment
B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
300
150
43
Pa
in NJ they dont care about individual trailers over 10k, they are looking at combine weight. But, it appears as though PA does care about trailers over 10k, which is where my trailer will be. I better fly low under the radar getting that thing to NJ :ROFLMAO:

EDIT:
Actually come to think of it, since its not commercial they prob don't care....
Unless your going around e-town, or up near the lebanon business park, I doubt you'll catch any crap. Never been pulled over with an empty trailer. Assuming your going to Manheim, you'll run the turnpike back to jersey ? You'll actually not be terribly far from my place.
 

B737

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
LX3310
Jun 9, 2019
1,749
1,693
113
New Jersey
I believe it is Manheim @Dieseldonato! so for me thats NJ tpike to PA pike. I think as long as not commercial or doing something dumb they will hopefully leave me be.

I've had contractors hassled at my house before because the lettering on their truck was an inch too small, it's crazy how into the weeds things can get
 
Last edited:

Dieseldonato

Active member

Equipment
B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
300
150
43
Pa
I believe it is Manheim @Dieseldonato! so for me thats NJ tpike to PA pike. I think as long as not commercial or doing something dumb they will hopefully leave me be.

I've had contractors hassled at my house before because the lettering on their truck was an inch too small, it's crazy how into the weeds things can get
Yeah I live right on the lancaster / lebanon line. Appalachian trailer is pretty close. Thought that's how you would come over. Should be a nice drive.
 

NorthwoodsLife

Member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
Kubota B7100, Kubota LX2610
Oct 15, 2021
62
66
18
Wisconsin
As I have gathered from this post:

The original posters question of whether to buy a 7k tandem axle, or a 5k single axle trailer has been answered. I hope.

Towing with the OP's 4 Runner with a 5k towing capacity, would be illegal to tow a 7k trailer. Even if it was empty.
 

Dieseldonato

Active member

Equipment
B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
300
150
43
Pa
As I have gathered from this post:

The original posters question of whether to buy a 7k tandem axle, or a 5k single axle trailer has been answered. I hope.

Towing with the OP's 4 Runner with a 6k towing capacity, would be illegal to tow a 7k trailer. Even if it was empty.
Yep, in a nut shell. It's all based off the vehicles ratings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

NorthwoodsLife

Member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
Kubota B7100, Kubota LX2610
Oct 15, 2021
62
66
18
Wisconsin
Yep, in a nut shell. It's all based off the vehicles ratings.
It's sad that we have gone to the Letter of the law, instead of the Spirit of the Law.
These laws were written so that an Officer could pull the foolish hacks off of the road who are endangering themselves and the public.
We've probably all seen that guy in his 1/2 ton pickup pulling a 15,000 lb - 5th wheel RV weaving all over the place... And the truck has his wife, kids and pet dog in it.
Everyone knows that there is a problem with that.
The Spirit of the Law is for those guys. That's why the law is there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users