Broken by Design
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Blackmagic Ursa 4K Cinema Camera, Pocket Cinema Camera 6K Pro, And more
A colleague sent me this article this morning and thought I would share it with everyone here.
Stuck in the Mud: How Right to Repair Could Save Farmers Billions
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Biker1mike
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B6200, Kubota 2030 Front Blade, King Cutter 60" finishing deck
What a double edged sword. Yell and scream about wanting smaller government and get the feds out of capitalist business and then plead for the government to control how a business handles IT'S proprietary hardware and software.
Most of the buyers purchased these very expensive machines knowing in advance about the right to repair issue and yet they bought the product. Capitalism at it's best. The buyers could have bought else where.
A real thorny issue to say the least.
Most of the buyers purchased these very expensive machines knowing in advance about the right to repair issue and yet they bought the product. Capitalism at it's best. The buyers could have bought else where.
A real thorny issue to say the least.
That's a very interesting article, and thank you for sharing. It's not easy to put numbers to the discussion and what you have provided is a good start.
I support the R2R concept, hell I've been really pissed at the number of times I can't get parts for something completely repairable. Tossing a still-in-production $30 hot water jug/kettle due to a broken 10c spring... madness. (Not saying that the spring would cost 10c from the dealer - probably $1-$2)
BUT - if farmers are going to save billions, then my limited financial understanding would be that the equation needs to balance somewhere. Are existing dealers and manufacturers happy to lose billions? Or will they put prices up? Or limit production lines (fewer options) or something. Or is the saving entirely the cost of lost production? Even if R2R allows more independent maintenance businesses to flourish, or DIY farm maintenance, money is getting redirected from existing dealers and manufacturers. What will they do to maintain profitability?
The right to repair forums seem a great idea, hopefully they can't get hijacked by manufacturers and dealers.
Daren Todd
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Lifetime Member
Equipment
Massey Ferguson 1825E, Kubota Z121S, Box blade, Rotary Cutter
Not being able to get parts has been a nightmare since covid shutdowns.
I've had to get creative to keep my fleet going. I've had to take starters and alternators over to the local armature company and come up with a "Will work" solutions.
Then some dealers have gone to call centers for parts ordering
I took a chance and ordered a water pump for a Cummins engine through their call center. (Parts guys are work from home).
Was supposed to be transferred from Florence Mississippi. That's a next day delivery using UPS for us.
It's been 6 days and still haven't had a phone call that it came in. I'll have to follow up Monday when I get back to work and see if it's there, went on walk about, or never actually was shipped.
I've had to get creative to keep my fleet going. I've had to take starters and alternators over to the local armature company and come up with a "Will work" solutions.
Then some dealers have gone to call centers for parts ordering
I took a chance and ordered a water pump for a Cummins engine through their call center. (Parts guys are work from home).Was supposed to be transferred from Florence Mississippi. That's a next day delivery using UPS for us.
It's been 6 days and still haven't had a phone call that it came in. I'll have to follow up Monday when I get back to work and see if it's there, went on walk about, or never actually was shipped.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
up here, food costs are 15% higher and I wonder what percentage of that actually is due to increased production costs like 'crop lost cause JD tech didn't come before the rain did'..type factors.
At the very least the 'info screen' should tell the owner of the $400,000 unit WHICH sensor is kaput, so he can order it PDQ, he shouldn't have to wait AND pay for a 4hr roadtrip, then 2hrs of 'computer time' and a few more hours to get the part (hopefully the CORRECT part...)
I know a lot of farmers have returned their leased equipment,and bought up 'precomputer' equipment. Stuff they CAN repair WHEN it fails
At the very least the 'info screen' should tell the owner of the $400,000 unit WHICH sensor is kaput, so he can order it PDQ, he shouldn't have to wait AND pay for a 4hr roadtrip, then 2hrs of 'computer time' and a few more hours to get the part (hopefully the CORRECT part...)
I know a lot of farmers have returned their leased equipment,and bought up 'precomputer' equipment. Stuff they CAN repair WHEN it fails
Colorado passes first US right to repair legislation for farmers
Colorado farmers will be able to legally fix their own equipment next year, with manufacturers including Deere & Co obliged to provide them with manuals for diagnostic software and other aids, under a... -April 12, 2023 at 05:59 pm EDT - MarketScreener
www.marketscreener.com
Great article. Doesn't say if the diagnostic tools, software documents, and repair manuals is free, is it retrospective, and if not free, what price... enough to scare people off and preserve the status quo? The "unintended consequences" that Deere refers to sounds, well, potentially ominousColorado passes first US right to repair legislation for farmers
Colorado farmers will be able to legally fix their own equipment next year, with manufacturers including Deere & Co obliged to provide them with manuals for diagnostic software and other aids, under a... -April 12, 2023 at 05:59 pm EDT - MarketScreenerwww.marketscreener.com
Daren Todd
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Lifetime Member
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Massey Ferguson 1825E, Kubota Z121S, Box blade, Rotary Cutter
This is what I don't get. The software and the ecm connection tools are already available to the public. That big farm with millions in equipment can easily justify the purchase of a diesel laptop and the annual licensing fees.Colorado passes first US right to repair legislation for farmers
Colorado farmers will be able to legally fix their own equipment next year, with manufacturers including Deere & Co obliged to provide them with manuals for diagnostic software and other aids, under a... -April 12, 2023 at 05:59 pm EDT - MarketScreenerwww.marketscreener.com
People want it available for free which is absolutely nuts. Work shop manuals are already available for most equipment as well.
I regularly fix Deere, Deutz, Cummins, Doosan, Yanmar, Kohler, Cat and Scania diesels without needing a service manual or diesel laptop.
I do have the availability to get the workshop manuals if need be, but choose to forgo the expense. The only time I need a laptop is for emissions codes. Anything emissions falls under government regulations.
The Govenment requires that a technician sign off on emmisions related repairs.
I agree, I don't get it either. I read the bill https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb23-1011 and the only added protection seems that the parts, codes, diagnostic equipment etc needs to be made available at a fair and reasonable price. Who is going to try working out what a fair and reasonable price is? Good luck. How long are the parts, codes, diagnostic equipment etc to be made available? No mention that I could find.This is what I don't get. The software and the ecm connection tools are already available to the public. That big farm with millions in equipment can easily justify the purchase of a diesel laptop and the annual licensing fees.
People want it available for free which is absolutely nuts. Work shop manuals are already available for most equipment as well.
I regularly fix Deere, Deutz, Cummins, Doosan, Yanmar, Kohler, Cat and Scania diesels without needing a service manual or diesel laptop.
...
What I would have liked to have seen specified is that parts holding, obsolescence policy (if it exists) , service bulletins, updates and troubleshooting information (beyond what's in the manuals) should also be available.
AND NOT JUST FARMERS...
So with electric vehicles coming on fast an furious (no new ice private cars and trucks to be sold in Canada / banned in just over 10 years / 2035) it seems like its going to be a problem to find a place to get repairs other than the dealership.
My local independent mechanic says he can do tires and maybe brakes on the new F150's Lightenings but anything to do with electrical, motors, batteries, wiring, seats, switches, etc.... he will no longer be able to help with. No WSM's available so will need to find factory trained mechanics over time who want to leave dealerships and this may take a lot of time as so many makes and models. Also seems a lot of unique tools, parts and no WSM's. Programming equipment, electrical testing equipment, etc..
And don't get me going on the body shop guys as so many sensors, etc... attached to the panels that need clips, replacement if in accident, etc.... that could be hard or impossible to get.
Why? he says ICE vehicles have been around so long independent mechanics have more than enough skills and tools for most models and manufactures to tackle most every job. Lots of factory trained people who have left dealerships as well. But on the electric vehicles it seems every manufacturer and even models between manufacturers do things "differently" and different / unique tools and testing equipment is going to be required.
So at least in the short term maybe 10 - 20 years he says the F150 will have to go back to a Ford dealer for anything other than brakes and tires.
PLus if your truck/car has regenerative braking like most (tesla says annually) you will need a brake service in colder climates that have use salt or similar on the roads.
On the plus side 300 miles range added to the battery charge costs only about $8.
So with electric vehicles coming on fast an furious (no new ice private cars and trucks to be sold in Canada / banned in just over 10 years / 2035) it seems like its going to be a problem to find a place to get repairs other than the dealership.
My local independent mechanic says he can do tires and maybe brakes on the new F150's Lightenings but anything to do with electrical, motors, batteries, wiring, seats, switches, etc.... he will no longer be able to help with. No WSM's available so will need to find factory trained mechanics over time who want to leave dealerships and this may take a lot of time as so many makes and models. Also seems a lot of unique tools, parts and no WSM's. Programming equipment, electrical testing equipment, etc..
And don't get me going on the body shop guys as so many sensors, etc... attached to the panels that need clips, replacement if in accident, etc.... that could be hard or impossible to get.
Why? he says ICE vehicles have been around so long independent mechanics have more than enough skills and tools for most models and manufactures to tackle most every job. Lots of factory trained people who have left dealerships as well. But on the electric vehicles it seems every manufacturer and even models between manufacturers do things "differently" and different / unique tools and testing equipment is going to be required.
So at least in the short term maybe 10 - 20 years he says the F150 will have to go back to a Ford dealer for anything other than brakes and tires.
PLus if your truck/car has regenerative braking like most (tesla says annually) you will need a brake service in colder climates that have use salt or similar on the roads.
On the plus side 300 miles range added to the battery charge costs only about $8.
Daren Todd
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Lifetime Member
Equipment
Massey Ferguson 1825E, Kubota Z121S, Box blade, Rotary Cutter
I can see where EV's will be a nightmare to get repaired.
With the automotive industry as well as ag industry there is standardization. The parts manufacturers say "This is what we have!!!! Which do you want to use???"
Might be a kubota, or deere, but Bosch supplied the injection pumps and injectors for both manufacturers. Same goes for any of your sensors.
With EV, each manufacturer is designing their own from the ground up.
It will be years before anything with EV is standardized.
I think the French are onto a better approach than the Colorado legislation. They've had something in place since 2021 for certain consumer electrical/electronic goods. Quite a good summary here, after 1 year's use: https://www.ifixit.com/News/64508/french-repair-index-one-year-later
Key points of the French system:
- Documentation: All the data provided by the manufacturer such as serial numbers and references, disassembly diagrams, technical instruction manuals, software, diagnostics, etc.
- Disassemblability: Ease of access to the most commonly worn-out or broken parts such as the battery, screen, cameras, and charging ports. For sub-criteria, there is the number of tools needed (Looking at Apple and their proprietary Pentalobe screws!), the fastener characteristics… You get it, the longer the disassembly is, the lower the score.
- Availability of spare parts: The number of years that major spare parts are available to producers, dealers, repairers, and consumers. Self-repair (ie availability to consumers) accounts for 1/3 of the score!
- Price of spare parts: An important criterion but one that changes over time and over the life of a device. And the supply shortages are shaking things up, as was the case with graphic cards, the PS5, and Xbox Series X. The higher the price of spare parts, the less attractive repair is…
- Specific criteria: Assistance on the use, updates as well as their duration (Android devices are often to abandoned after 2-3 years while Apple still updates the iPhone 8 released in 2017 with iOS 16) and even the possibility to wipe your device (for resale as a secondhand or reconditioned device for example).
These many criteria, with percentages assigned for each subsection, help determine a final score out of 10. But who determines these scores? Well… It’s the manufacturers themselves!
It seems promising enough that the EU is looking at adopting something similar.
Spare parts and repairs
How to encourage the repair of defective products? Presentation of the French and European rules.
www.europe-consommateurs.eu
So the French/EU approach might not make much of an impact on reducing Colorado farmers' tractor downtime, instead the main point is to stop so much potentially good stuff going to landfill.
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Pau7220
Well-known member
Equipment
L3650 GST, Landpride TL250 FEL w/ Piranha, 6' King Kutter, GM1084R Finish
On the downside I had a Camry hybrid in for an OBD emissions test which failed due to the MIL lamp on and a code for an under spec hybrid battery. He knew it because he was already quoted in excess of $8000 for a replacement from a Toyota dealer. I guess he was hoping I’d let it slide. Someone has to explain the “savings” to me
not sure... we are 100% hydro power here and pay 9 cents a KW (about 6 1/2 cents american) no matter time of day and the extended ford has a 131 KW battery but never let it go down to zero. so 2/3 battery fill * 131 kw battery * .09 cents per kw is about $8 Cdn ($6 US)
next province to us pay 2.5 cents per KW as they have an off peak system so even less their if they charge at night which makes no sense to me as that when clean solar doesn't work so coal/nuclear is making that 2 1/2 cent power to charge a truck over night???
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Someone here on OTT suggested recently that electricity some place in CA is $.30 per KWH.
ouch.... were 9 cents.... this week Ontario announced decreasing non peak rates to 2 1/2 cents but peak was going up but don't remember how much.
30 cents hurts. Would mean charging a ford electric truck 2/3 about $26 versus $6 here.
Darren, a guy i worked with was a true gear head and there wasnt much he couldnt work out. His daughter had a Meadda (sp) and it quit, no worries he put his scanner onit came up with a code not in anything he had. Loaded it up and took it to a bud that has a full blow repair shop. Same code,, turned out it was a Mfg code that was only available to their garages. It shows up no place but in their books. Long story short it was a fuseable link in a wiring harness, So yeah they hide stuff regardlessThis is what I don't get. The software and the ecm connection tools are already available to the public. That big farm with millions in equipment can easily justify the purchase of a diesel laptop and the annual licensing fees.
People want it available for free which is absolutely nuts. Work shop manuals are already available for most equipment as well.
I regularly fix Deere, Deutz, Cummins, Doosan, Yanmar, Kohler, Cat and Scania diesels without needing a service manual or diesel laptop.
The only time I need a laptop is for emissions codes. Anything emissions falls under government regulations.
The Govenment requires that a technician sign off on emmisions related repairs.
Yes I am aware of the issue
first off when i was in the kubota business, few if any knew of "right to repair". I explained it to a few folks after the fact, after they found out that they couldn't do anything with emissions stuff
and "emissions stuff" can be defined by basically anything in/on the system, thus the epa has their hands in it. Noise emissions included.
with kubota, not everyone has access to diagmaster, and not everyone should. There are things that one can do within it, that mess up the emissions side of things. An example, early version of diagmaster, I played with it at a training center way back when, on a tractor that was one of their first common-rail systems. Circa 2007-ish. They knew they was gonna have to deal with it eventually as the pickup trucks did, and they wanted it to be as perfect as possible when rolled out, 7 or so years later. Anyway, the trainers were going through some different functions and such. One of the other 'techs' got to playing with injection timing while the engine was running on the dyno, it was making roughly 95hp at that moment. Playing with injection timing, it went to rattling and sent some weird smoke out of the exhaust and then began to pick up a miss and a LOT more exhaust smoke. Ended up burning a couple pistons. Later versions of diagmaster do not have those functions, however one with a little computer knowledge could break out the code and make it happen. But diagmaster does have functions that can be detrimental to the DPF among other things, and that's why not everyone should have access to all functions. I agree, however, that there should be a stripped down "scanner" of sorts that anyone can use to "see" things, but keeping what can be done to a minimum--e.g., clear codes and that's about it. Similar to some cheap automotive scan tooling.
Other manufacturers have this available, kubota does not to my knowledge. I think it should be though, at least a basic version. Some CAT stuff can be done remotely as I understand.
first off when i was in the kubota business, few if any knew of "right to repair". I explained it to a few folks after the fact, after they found out that they couldn't do anything with emissions stuff
and "emissions stuff" can be defined by basically anything in/on the system, thus the epa has their hands in it. Noise emissions included.
with kubota, not everyone has access to diagmaster, and not everyone should. There are things that one can do within it, that mess up the emissions side of things. An example, early version of diagmaster, I played with it at a training center way back when, on a tractor that was one of their first common-rail systems. Circa 2007-ish. They knew they was gonna have to deal with it eventually as the pickup trucks did, and they wanted it to be as perfect as possible when rolled out, 7 or so years later. Anyway, the trainers were going through some different functions and such. One of the other 'techs' got to playing with injection timing while the engine was running on the dyno, it was making roughly 95hp at that moment. Playing with injection timing, it went to rattling and sent some weird smoke out of the exhaust and then began to pick up a miss and a LOT more exhaust smoke. Ended up burning a couple pistons. Later versions of diagmaster do not have those functions, however one with a little computer knowledge could break out the code and make it happen. But diagmaster does have functions that can be detrimental to the DPF among other things, and that's why not everyone should have access to all functions. I agree, however, that there should be a stripped down "scanner" of sorts that anyone can use to "see" things, but keeping what can be done to a minimum--e.g., clear codes and that's about it. Similar to some cheap automotive scan tooling.
Other manufacturers have this available, kubota does not to my knowledge. I think it should be though, at least a basic version. Some CAT stuff can be done remotely as I understand.
and if left to the consumers, it will be decades before ev is viable for everyone.
just for an example. I looked into this a good bit. Say I wanted to buy a tesla model S. (I don't but I checked into this for my own knowledge). I can charge it from a level 1 (110v) standard outlet. The charge rate is 3 miles per hour, in other words it takes one hour to charge to an effective range of 3 miles. It's about 40 miles to/from work. At 3 MPH charge rate, it would take roughly 13 hours to charge, assuming I didn't go anywhere else, didn't use the heat pump (a/c), didn't get stuck in traffic, etc. If I did a normal day, go somewhere for lunch, then go out after work for groceries, etc, it would never charge back up fully on level 1 charging, and by the end of the week would be stone dead, car would have to SIT all weekend to charge back up so it could be used again Monday to go to work. Great, put a Level 2 charging "station" in. In other words, install a NEMA 1450 outlet in the garage to charge the car, charges twice as fast roughly 6 miles per hour rate. I could do that. Except, I'm in an older house, 100A service. No space left in the panel for another pair of breakers (would require two). Because it's a 100A service, it also has the appropriate size wire from the house to the utility pole, in the appropriately sized conduit. It's a 245 foot run, under two driveways. So in order to put another breaker in, electrician says I'll have to upgrade to 2" conduit, 2/0 copper or 3/0 Aluminum wire (minimum), of course it has to go under the driveways so the driveway will have to be dug up to do the pipe/trench. Then the panel, outlet, and charger cord-which is about $600. Grand total? Close to $20,000. I don't have that money. Neither do many other people. So this begs the question, how to those of us who don't have the money, plan to do it? WE CAN'T. I realize everyone's situation is different. Lets think about this too. Apartments. Say a complex has 100 residents. 100 cars. Say every single car needs to be charged all at the same time (at night usually). Remember, currently night time is off-peak time for electric usage, but that will certainly change. Last year we had rolling power outages, and Entergy was asking people to "conserve" electric usage. Who's going to pay for the infrastructure "improvements"? I guarantee it won't be the government, it'll be you and I, the consumers, and in the end EV will have zero benefit to anyone except the higher-up's. Zero. Yet consumers will have higher costs of living.
The more I think and research this, the more pissed off I get, and I think I'll quit now before I get too pissed!