Pretty pleased with propane power

aeronutt

Member

Equipment
Z725 Mower, MX5200 w/FEL, Stihl 660, assorted others...
Jan 7, 2016
120
2
16
Omaha NE
Perhaps I'm just nuts. Perhaps I've got too much free time. Perhaps my inner greenie is starting to show through. Whatever the reason, I decided to convert my Z725 to run on propane.

I initially ordered a kit from motorsnorkel.com that included a vapor-only regulator and a rather poorly made adapter plate that goes between the air cleaner and the carburetor. Having previously changed my portable sawmill to run on propane, I already knew that the vapor-only regulator was going to cause problems with tank icing so the poorly made adapter sealed the fate on that kit and it went back. Next up was a kit from Nash Fuel in Kentucky that uses a high pressure liquid heated regulator that vaporizes liquid propane and regulates the flow all in one compact unit. This allowed me to utilize forklift style propane tanks that don't ice up because they provide liquid to the regulator rather than vapor. The actual process of installing the conversion probably took 8 hours including fabricating a few brackets and planning out where to mount everything. I wanted to make the whole project 100% reversible with no new holes or other permanent mods so there were a few challenges with mounting and routing. I ended up violating the "no holes" rule just once in order to add a toggle switch to the stock control panel. The switch allows changing between propane and gasoline by simply flipping the switch. I also ended up cutting into the factory wiring harness to interupt the fuel shutoff solenoid power. This signal is simply routed through the toggle switch and then either to the gasoline solenoid or the propane solenoid. Whichever solenoid gets power is the one that supplies fuel. That connection can be unplugged and re-configured back to factory function without the toggle switch easily if I decide to remove the propane system. The regulator is mounted right beside the oil filter so it was very easy to route the oil cooler lines through the regulator to provide the needed heat source to vaporize the liquid propane.

Once that was all handled, I got to fire it up and give it a test run to prove that it still runs normally on gasoline. The venturi adapter they provided was their first prototype using 3D printing. They claim to have sold many similar kits with a much more expensive aluminum adapter that's quite a bit bigger, but mine was the first thin plastic adapter. Unfortunately, the restriction added by that adapter plate was roughly equivalent to running with 2/3 choke applied. The engine would start and run normally at a dead idle, but any request for high speed would cause black smoke, stumbling, and overall unhealthy operation. Engaging the PTO immediately killed the engine.

Switching to propane, the engine started and ran normally to include high speed operation at no load, but engaging the PTO caused a bit of stumble and mowing grass had a noticeable reduction in power. After several days of e-mails with Nash Fuel over why their system wasn't performing well, I determined that there was simply too much restriction and the best way to reduce that is to open up the holes. I opened them up from 19mm to 25mm and tried again. This time, the engine roared to life and ran good on both gasoline and propane. I provided this feedback to Nash Fuel so hopefully they will incorporate this improvement in future kits.

So, the end result is that my thirsty little motor no longer drinks 4 GPH of $3/gal premium unleaded and now happily runs on $1.09/gal bulk propane. Propane has an octane of about 108 so there's no worry about fuel quality. I no longer have to take 3 or 4 plastic cans to the gas station every time I mow and refueling is a very clean process done behind my shop in about 5 minutes or I can swap tanks in about 2 minutes. If I run out of propane at the far end of the field, I just flip the switch back to gasoline and finish my pass. Stale gasoline becomes a real concern now so I'll be sure to put some stabilizer in every time I add gasoline and intentionally run out of gasoline at least once per year.

I didn't keep close records on the overall cost, but including the liquid tap for my bulk tank, several quick couplers, hoses, fittings, 2 forklift tanks, an adapter to refill BBQ bottles too, and a small pile of misc stuff, I'm probably sitting around $600 to $700 for the whole project. I suppose I'll eventually save enough money on fuel to pay for the conversion, but the convenience of refueling makes it a win regardless of payback calculations.

20150907_095827.jpg

20150907_103630.jpg

20150907_120547.jpg

20150930_201828.jpg
 

Grouse Feathers

New member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
BX2370, FEL, Snowblower-BX5455, Homebuilt Forks, LP RB1560, LP GS1548
Feb 16, 2015
1,022
4
0
Lovells, Mi
Nice conversion. I am not sure everyone is aware how much the price of propane has dropped. A couple of winters ago it was over $2. Your savings should be around $2.25 per gallon of gasoline, as propane has roughly 75% of the energy of gasoline. And your will burn rate for propane should be around 5 GPH.
If you can buy RV gas (no alcohol) your stale gas problem should go away. Although you might want to shut off the gasoline and run the carburetor empty to ensure no varnish forms in the bowl.
 

coachgeo

Well-known member

Equipment
L225 w/woods Few Mowers & Back Blade, D722 in Motorcycle (Triumph Tiger), LMTV
Nov 16, 2012
2,460
32
48
Southern OH
If you want to be green another alternative is to not dump using petroleum... but make it burn complete. For example, take our diesels and (overly simplifying here) add a propane tank. Set it up thru a valve to fumigate propane at base of air cleaner at a rate that is a small percent but does increase with throttle. ou will then have to tweak the IP timing to get full use of this fuel combination

If I understand how this works right, the propane will simply enhance combustion that makes the diesel FULLY combust leaving next to nothing left in the exhaust. Why don't we do this with on the road vehicles..... cause you would have to carry such a huge propane tank to match how far the diesel tank last that it is not practical.
 

aeronutt

Member

Equipment
Z725 Mower, MX5200 w/FEL, Stihl 660, assorted others...
Jan 7, 2016
120
2
16
Omaha NE
You're right coach. Diesel is very easy to augment with propane using the same demand regulator I used to convert my Kohler gas engine. It simply acts like a straw in a cup so any time there is suction (engine running) fuel flows, and any time the suction stops (engine stopped) fuel flow stops too. More suction = more fuel flow. A diesel won't run purely on propane, but propane can make the oily fuel last a lot longer and/or increase power output. This is a well-known hot rodder trick for the diesel pickup crowds. A quick Google search for diesel propane injection will give you days worth of reading on the subject.
 

coachgeo

Well-known member

Equipment
L225 w/woods Few Mowers & Back Blade, D722 in Motorcycle (Triumph Tiger), LMTV
Nov 16, 2012
2,460
32
48
Southern OH
.... A diesel won't run purely on propane, but propane can make the oily fuel last a lot longer and/or increase power output. This is a well-known hot rodder trick for the diesel pickup crowds.....
Yup, propane to diesel is like Nitrus to Petrol. Both in perspective improve combustion so much so that you can get a power boost as well. Disadvantage of running it purely for power boost is that the tune on the engine is mostly maintained for normal fuel combustion and (unless a computer is involved) the tune stays the same when the gas is fumigated. Now if one was to run a tune for the two in combination at the majority of the time instead of using the gas just when a boost is desired; then both MPG and emissions would improve dramatically.

With that in mind hmmm..... wonder if where going about emission improvements wrong. Instead of fuel stations having DPF etc. Fuel stations should also have Nitros and Propane :D
 
Last edited:

aeronutt

Member

Equipment
Z725 Mower, MX5200 w/FEL, Stihl 660, assorted others...
Jan 7, 2016
120
2
16
Omaha NE
Green cred aside, I don't believe it's realistic to do a propane augmentation on a Kubota diesel. With the current price of off-road diesel below $2 per gallon and propane having lower energy content, I don't see where you could possibly justify the expense and hassle. Especially considering that a diesel tractor is already insanely fuel efficient.

It makes sense for small gasoline engines because propane is a substitute fuel that eliminates hauling cans to the gas station. Coincidentally, this also means that propane would be a poor choice for anyone who does not have a bulk propane tank to refuel from. Most filling stations charge anywhere from $2 to $4 per gallon for small tank refills plus it's harder to find a propane station than a gas station.

You don't get the simplified refueling benefit with a diesel tractor because it still burns mostly diesel. I suspect that a large percentage of diesel tractors are refueled with a hose carrying cheap bulk fuel from a farm tank, which negates any financial benefit from propane augmentation.

Somewhat unrelated: The biggest motivator for converting my sawmill to run on propane was the fact that it doesn't move very fast and everybody working around it was choking on the gasoline fumes on calm days. Propane fumes are much less nauseating. An unexpected benefit was that the saw gradually starts to loose power when the tank is almost empty. That means I can finish the cut I'm doing rather than stopping in the middle of a cut to refuel. Once I realized that I could do cheap and fast refueling from my bulk tank, it was a natural progression to also convert my thirsty mower. The sawmill and the mower both run better and cleaner on propane. I won't go back.
 

skeets

Well-known member

Equipment
BX 2360 /B2601
Oct 2, 2009
14,186
2,849
113
SW Pa
All know about propane and diesel is a couple of these kids around here run them on their diesel pickups,,, DAYUM with that stuff it turns those rear tires to smoke in a heart beat
 

Rezzey

Member

Equipment
B1600dt
Oct 11, 2015
53
1
8
Melbourne, Victoria
Just curious as to how you fill a propane tank attached to your tractor without floating it to the service station for autogas. Or are the bottles removable like on forklifts? Things might be different over here in Oz.
 

coachgeo

Well-known member

Equipment
L225 w/woods Few Mowers & Back Blade, D722 in Motorcycle (Triumph Tiger), LMTV
Nov 16, 2012
2,460
32
48
Southern OH
Just curious as to how you fill a propane tank attached to your tractor without floating it to the service station for autogas. Or are the bottles removable like on forklifts? Things might be different over here in Oz.
We don't have propane on our tractors. If someone built one, I'm sure they would use a removable propane bottle. BTW..... special bottles are required for on the road use.
 

skeets

Well-known member

Equipment
BX 2360 /B2601
Oct 2, 2009
14,186
2,849
113
SW Pa
As I sit her pondering this I have to ask why one would do this, for reasons of other than having something to do
 

Grouse Feathers

New member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
BX2370, FEL, Snowblower-BX5455, Homebuilt Forks, LP RB1560, LP GS1548
Feb 16, 2015
1,022
4
0
Lovells, Mi
As I sit her pondering this I have to ask why one would do this, for reasons of other than having something to do
Isn't that reason enough.;) Especially if it is something you like to do.:cool: How many projects presented here on OTT fit exactly the same criteria.:D It's also a chance to test your skills and learn something new.:D:D
 

aeronutt

Member

Equipment
Z725 Mower, MX5200 w/FEL, Stihl 660, assorted others...
Jan 7, 2016
120
2
16
Omaha NE
Just curious as to how you fill a propane tank attached to your tractor without floating it to the service station for autogas. Or are the bottles removable like on forklifts? Things might be different over here in Oz.
The bottles I used are forklift bottles. I can either remove them for refilling or simply drive the mower over to my bulk tank and connect the fill hose without removing the bottle. It's easier to leave the bottle mounted. I don't have a pump to transfer propane so after I connect the liquid line and open both valves, I just crack the bleed valve to release a bit of vapor (or vapour if you're in Oz ;) ) which lowers the pressure and allows liquid to flow from the bulk tank into the tractor tank. This wastes less than a cup of propane to accomplish a refill so the actual loss is really negligible. I can afford to waste a cup of propane much easier than buying a $600 pump.
 

aeronutt

Member

Equipment
Z725 Mower, MX5200 w/FEL, Stihl 660, assorted others...
Jan 7, 2016
120
2
16
Omaha NE
As I sit her pondering this I have to ask why one would do this, for reasons of other than having something to do
The biggest reason was to avoid making so many trips to the gas station with a smelly can in the trunk of my car. I was doing that twice per week last summer and a full round trip ended up soaking about 45 minutes out of my schedule and costing about 25 dollars. Also, I'm an old man with a bad back so holding a heavy can of gas at an awkward angle waiting for it to transfer into the tractor was painful. Now, I simply connect a rubber hose from my bulk propane tank to the forklift tank, open a few valves, crack the bleeder screw a bit, and wait 5 minutes. Once the refill is complete, I put the hose away and go back to mowing. So what used to require 45 minutes and 25 dollars now takes 5 minutes and 8 dollars. Except that I only need to get bulk propane delivered once per year so there's no need to pull out the wallet every time I refuel. There's also a fringe benefit of having much less pollution and the exhaust fumes are less nauseating.

Oh yeah, I also just needed something to do... :D
 

clay45

New member

Equipment
L2050DT, TSC 5ft Rake, Tartar 5ft rototiller, TSC Middlebuster, TSC CarryAll
Feb 6, 2015
279
1
0
SC
Aeronut; I can think of no better reason!
 

Rezzey

Member

Equipment
B1600dt
Oct 11, 2015
53
1
8
Melbourne, Victoria
Slightly off topic, but would a instantaneous hot water unit run off auto gas or is home bottled lpg gas or Natural gas the only gas these run on. Id love to have a big auto gas tank like Aeronutt instead of paying twice the amount for elgas 80kg bottles for the house. What size do you have a how much to have it filled where you are for autogas?
 

Rezzey

Member

Equipment
B1600dt
Oct 11, 2015
53
1
8
Melbourne, Victoria
Over here a bottle of home lpg is about $120 for 80kg where its 50c a liter for auto gas at the station... be way cheaper running everything apart from the inside stove off that stuff.
 

aeronutt

Member

Equipment
Z725 Mower, MX5200 w/FEL, Stihl 660, assorted others...
Jan 7, 2016
120
2
16
Omaha NE
Propane is propane. Call it autogas, lpg, or propane. It's all the same stuff no matter what they are selling it for. If I'm doing my math right, it sounds like it's a lot more expensive over there. Here in the central US, it's about $1.09 per gallon, which works out to about US $0.28 per liter. We've got plenty of higher priced ways to get propane too. Cylinder exchanges for the standard 20 pound (~9Kg) BBQ bottle costs about $20 and they only put 15 pounds in them, not the full 20. Cylinder exchange for 33 pound forklift bottles runs about $27 and taking portable cylinders to a service station for refilling can be anywhere from $2 per gallon to $3.50 per gallon. So, having my own bulk tank where I can buy 200 gallons at a time with free delivery for only $1.09 is really the best way to go. Once it's in my tank, I can burn it in a water heater, a shop heater, a BBQ grill, a lawnmower, or a dump truck. I just have to figure out how to get it to those items.
 

Rezzey

Member

Equipment
B1600dt
Oct 11, 2015
53
1
8
Melbourne, Victoria
Oh wow thats cheap as chips. In some states (ie victoria) here in oz (the cooler ones) i think autogas has a mix of propane and butane for some temperature (i think) reason. And having butane mixed in makes me concerned with the fumes being bad for stoves and bbqs but water heaters away from ppl maybe ok. Wood is just so hard to come by... not alowed to touch (yes... not even prune) ANY type of tree over here you own let alone log it for heat. Councils have areial photos they compare every year to try catch you out so they can slog you a up to 20k fine per tree!

A propane lawnmower?! Never hear of those conversions over here. Definitely would love to see the other side of the world one day and experience life over there for a bit.