Factory cross threaded gland nut

[Dr Rox]

Heya gang, this is my first post after gleaning much helpful info, last of which was locating a rebuild kit for a denso starter solenoid as the kubota site/parts list lacks any detail in that regard. There are no part numbers - only viable fix thru kubota is an expensive starter replacement instead of an 18 buck kit.

The current experience.
I have an LA680 FEL with the 'discontinued' cylinders. The newer versions have a thicker head.
IOW, I suspect they may have had an issue with the assembly process at the factory where the mechanized assembly just used pressure and high speed to drive the gland nuts home regardless if they were started correctly or not.
Given where the threads are damaged, I suspect that was the problem - they are stripped right at the start then 'right' themselves as it was driven home, very soft material could behave that way. Steel nuts would have locked up.
You can see from the condition of the nut every method was used to try and free it, but the aluminum is so crumbly it could not withstand the force applied, even after heating. Used a gland nut wrench, pipe wrench, vice, punch, even tried to put flats on it so a 2 ft adjustable would have some bite, but no joy. The amount of the nut that protrudes from the cylinder doesn't give you many non destructive options.
A failed attempt to melt the aluminum nut out fell short as I'm out at a friend's where the tractor is, without the tools I have at home.
The next day I was going to attempt to drill it out. I needed room to fit a drill so tugged on the eye. It was very stuck.
Grabbed a breaker bar and tried to turn the eye to break it loose, but the nut started to turn - just a little. So got some ATF and worked that into the new gap while working the shaft (now a 'tool') back and forth, and got the nut out. Let me tell you it was tight, and thankfully the o-rings fused to the shaft held up, and the seal at the mouth of the cylinder was absent from the heating so ATF got in.
So a 25 buck/1 hr job turned into a 260 buck one over 3 days trying to figure out a fix, then 4 day wait for new nut (my kubota dealers in NC suck - had to order it online). The threads in the cylinder were fine and accepted the new nut happily.

The second cylinder had also just started to give up the ghost and was leaking a little, but not as bad as the first.
I though 'what are the chances the second cylinder is fubarred'??
Well, I should buy a lottery ticket.
This job started the same way. Before the nut was totally destroyed, I used heat and will let it sit overnight and see if the story repeats itself.
Is there anything I missed trying??
Has anyone else seen this before??
I worked heavy construction/earthmoving and there was a lot of iron on the jobs, but never saw kubotas. Even on the small jobs. I have seen gland nut leakage fixed in the field with no issues. The nuts are just snugged. What gives with these machines? Have I not seen them on jobs since they are not easily field serviceable??
Tractor is sitting in Caswell County NC.... anyone know of a reliable shop?? I am having issues with the bucket cylinders too, as they drift due to the parts from kubota - the new piston o-ring that supports the sealing one is too small a diameter. Go figure.

 

[Daren Todd]

Google armature service or alternator rebuild shops for your area.

Someone else manufactures the starters for Kubota.

If it's a Denso starter, then Denso is the manufacturer.

An armature shop should be able to fix you up. Either with the rebuild kit, a remanned starter, or new starter. Our local shop has prices on new starters that are almost the same as a rebuild cost. So I tend to spend the $20 more for the new starter instead of rebuilding one.

Be forewarned though. Some parts and rebuild kits have been super hard to come by since covid. Plant shut downs caused shortages that they are still trying to catch up from.

That said, I bypass a dealer when dealing with starters and alternators. I get a much better price through the local armature shop for the same exact alternator or starter that the dealer will provide you with.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Heya gang, this is my first post after gleaning much helpful info, last of which was locating a rebuild kit for a denso starter solenoid as the kubota site/parts list lacks any detail in that regard. There are no part numbers - only viable fix thru kubota is an expensive starter replacement instead of an 18 buck kit.

The current experience.
I have an LA680 FEL with the 'discontinued' cylinders. The newer versions have a thicker head.
IOW, I suspect they may have had an issue with the assembly process at the factory where the mechanized assembly just used pressure and high speed to drive the gland nuts home regardless if they were started correctly or not.
Given where the threads are damaged, I suspect that was the problem - they are stripped right at the start then 'right' themselves as it was driven home, very soft material could behave that way. Steel nuts would have locked up.
You can see from the condition of the nut every method was used to try and free it, but the aluminum is so crumbly it could not withstand the force applied, even after heating. Used a gland nut wrench, pipe wrench, vice, punch, even tried to put flats on it so a 2 ft adjustable would have some bite, but no joy. The amount of the nut that protrudes from the cylinder doesn't give you many non destructive options.
A failed attempt to melt the aluminum nut out fell short as I'm out at a friend's where the tractor is, without the tools I have at home.
The next day I was going to attempt to drill it out. I needed room to fit a drill so tugged on the eye. It was very stuck.
Grabbed a breaker bar and tried to turn the eye to break it loose, but the nut started to turn - just a little. So got some ATF and worked that into the new gap while working the shaft (now a 'tool') back and forth, and got the nut out. Let me tell you it was tight, and thankfully the o-rings fused to the shaft held up, and the seal at the mouth of the cylinder was absent from the heating so ATF got in.
So a 25 buck/1 hr job turned into a 260 buck one over 3 days trying to figure out a fix, then 4 day wait for new nut (my kubota dealers in NC suck - had to order it online). The threads in the cylinder were fine and accepted the new nut happily.

The second cylinder had also just started to give up the ghost and was leaking a little, but not as bad as the first.
I though 'what are the chances the second cylinder is fubarred'??
Well, I should buy a lottery ticket.
This job started the same way. Before the nut was totally destroyed, I used heat and will let it sit overnight and see if the story repeats itself.
Is there anything I missed trying??
Has anyone else seen this before??
I worked heavy construction/earthmoving and there was a lot of iron on the jobs, but never saw kubotas. Even on the small jobs. I have seen gland nut leakage fixed in the field with no issues. The nuts are just snugged. What gives with these machines? Have I not seen them on jobs since they are not easily field serviceable??
Tractor is sitting in Caswell County NC.... anyone know of a reliable shop?? I am having issues with the bucket cylinders too, as they drift due to the parts from kubota - the new piston o-ring that supports the sealing one is too small a diameter. Go figure.

View attachment 109975

What's your time worth and how much money are you saving?

2 bore x 20 stroke Tang Welded Hydraulic Cylinder | Magister Hydraulics

2" bore x 20" stroke welded double-acting hydraulic cylinder with tang and narrow tube ends. Made for heavy-duty hydraulic equipment. It can be used for a variety of automotive hydraulic applications, waste, recycling, construction, transportation, agriculture, material handling. 3500 PSI max...

www.magisterhyd.com

As to starters and alternators in my world they are disposable parts that you simply replace with new.

Dan

 

[Chanceywd]

What's your time worth and how much money are you saving?

2 bore x 20 stroke Tang Welded Hydraulic Cylinder | Magister Hydraulics

2" bore x 20" stroke welded double-acting hydraulic cylinder with tang and narrow tube ends. Made for heavy-duty hydraulic equipment. It can be used for a variety of automotive hydraulic applications, waste, recycling, construction, transportation, agriculture, material handling. 3500 PSI max...

www.magisterhyd.com

As to starters and alternators in my world they are disposable parts that you simply replace with new.

Dan

That style but shorter, manufacturer is the cylinder I used to make the hydraulic thumb on my BH77. I plugged the base end hole and re drilled that hole about a half inch closer but it was perfect with the plus of the hydraulic fittings clocked on the side. I have bought about 5 of their cylinders total and they all have held up well,

Bill

 

[Yooper]

Scratching my head on the gland nut. I would say galling or not machined correctly but you say the new ones thread right in. Sometimes the mystery never gets solved

 

[Dr Rox]

THANKS for all the replies.
Starter rebuild was easy once I followed guidance offered here with Denso part sources from many posts. Got the kit from an Amazon link. I put the wrench I used to whack it with to make it work back in the shed.

That Magister site is a goldmine. Wish I had seen that before. The kubota gland nut cost more than an entire cylinder. AMAZING!

Considering the cost and time of dealing with kubota's mistake, I will replace the cylinders with those. They have STEEL gland nuts. It really isn't a hard job pulling a cylinder and taking it apart to replace o-rings. If a shaft gets bent or other damage, just get a new one from the site. The fitments they offer are very close.

The amazing thing is, I could replace ALL the cylinders on the tractor from Magister for the cost of one from kubota, and still have a pile of money left over.

THANKS again!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dr Rox]

Scratching my head on the gland nut. I would say galling or not machined correctly but you say the new ones thread right in. Sometimes the mystery never gets solved

Exactly.
Weird, isn't it?
The only thing i could conclude is what i included in my first post.

The only other times you see a condition like that is when part of the bolt goes thru a boss and then into a nut or threaded part. In most cases both pieces are damaged, unless like here, one piece is soft.
The thread engagement here was full. It was cross threaded then the softer metal eventually caught up and synced with the threads. Part of the effect may be traceable to the thread profile.

All i know for sure is that they discontinued the design and went to a thicker nut with more material extending from the cylinder (and who knows what else they changed - I have not seen any replacements yet).

 

[lugbolt]

I have seen glands like that before. I cannot say whether they were "cross threaded" or if they were simply just galled from removal. Nonetheless, they're a pain! Some of the old ones were NLA, so we had to hire a machine shop to make a new one from scratch. Not a particularly hard job to do, takes longer to measure everything out and such Typically if I had 2 of them made, they hit me with about $450 at the time. Mind you, we had to make a little too, so we'd sell them at $300 ea. People might throw a fit but what's the other option? I knew of none. Of course now that I have my own shop, I could probably spin one out in a few hours' time on my own lathe. Manual, not CNC, but you get the idea. That little lathe is a tool I wish I'd have gotten decades ago! Reminds me i need to make some bushings for my push mower this weekend since Deere no longer supports that mower. But it's over 30 years old so I can't blame em.

 

[Dr Rox]

UPDATE: after lots of heat, gland nut started to move the next morning using the shaft as a removal tool with a breaker bar in the eye. It was stuck to the shaft pretty good.
It was too hot out and had other stuff to move to gas out on getting the nut out, then spending 230 bucks for a new nut.
I ordered replacement cylinders from Magister and the adapters from Surplus Center.
Done.
Thanks all for the advice!!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

UPDATE: after lots of heat, gland nut started to move the next morning using the shaft as a removal tool with a breaker bar in the eye. It was stuck to the shaft pretty good.
It was too hot out and had other stuff to move to gas out on getting the nut out, then spending 230 bucks for a new nut.
I ordered replacement cylinders from Magister and the adapters from Surplus Center.
Done.
Thanks all for the advice!!

Yes sadly it was just a bad gland nut design, hence the reason for the parts change.

 

[whitetiger]

Considering the cost and time of dealing with kubota's mistake,

You do realize that Kubota does not design or manufacture any hydraulic cylinders, don't you?

 

[Dr Rox]

You do realize that Kubota does not design or manufacture any hydraulic cylinders, don't you?

They are still responsible for QA on the final product. No excuses. They painted it orange ;P
Someone there put their approval on the design and manufacture.
They charge a premium for parts that can be had elsewhere for much less if you dig, like the starter and Husco valves. The buck stops with them. Just MHO.

 

[whitetiger]

They are still responsible for QA on the final product. No excuses. They painted it orange ;P
Someone there put their approval on the design and manufacture.
They charge a premium for parts that can be had elsewhere for much less if you dig, like the starter and Husco valves. The buck stops with them. Just MHO.

Have a lovely day............

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

They are still responsible for QA on the final product. No excuses. They painted it orange ;P
Someone there put their approval on the design and manufacture.
They charge a premium for parts that can be had elsewhere for much less if you dig, like the starter and Husco valves. The buck stops with them. Just MHO.

I think its funny that your complaining about a part failure on a 29 year old tractor.

 

[will721]

I think its funny that your complaining about a part failure on a 29 year old tractor.

The starter went out on my 25 year old pickup! Damn those Chrysler engineers! The buck stops with them.

 

[Dr Rox]

You do realize that Kubota does not design or manufacture any hydraulic cylinders, don't you?

Do you know who does and if the part numbers are proprietary or not??

 

[Dr Rox]

You guys are getting away from the original post. I'm not complaining about the starter.
They are expected to wear, just as the seals.
You should be able to get a gland nut out without destroying it to replace the seals. Otherwise, make it an unserviceable part.
If the tractor was still young and the seals on the cylinder went out, the problem with the gland nuts would still be present.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You guys are getting away from the original post. I'm not complaining about the starter.
They are expected to wear, just as the seals.
You should be able to get a gland nut out without destroying it to replace the seals. Otherwise, make it an unserviceable part.
If the tractor was still young and the seals on the cylinder went out, the problem with the gland nuts would still be present.

Do you know who does and if the part numbers are proprietary or not??

Again your asking for information on a 29 year old tractor.
It would be Who did build them
And yes the parts are proprietary, as is almost everything on a Kubota.

 

[Dr Rox]

Again your asking for information on a 29 year old tractor.
It would be Who did build them
And yes the parts are proprietary, as is almost everything on a Kubota.

I've gotten help on other forums and not trolled in rebuilding a Dewalt radial arm saw from the 50's that was built like a tank. Never got a response "what do you expect from a 68 yr old saw". It needed bearings and the members there gave me NAPA part numbers. It came apart and went back together with no problems. Beautiful machine.
Same thing with a 67 yr old Choremaster chain saw. Picked it up at a flea market and resurrected that, too. Came apart, and everything was serviceable down to the points. Members supplied parts schematics for the repairs.
This cylinder was nowhere as old, and what difference does it make how old a serviceable part is if you can't get to the parts that are expected wear out?
I had limited time to work on this tractor. The bucket cylinders were serviceable and allotted the same time, budget, and brought south only the tools needed from the previous experience for this job. It's an easy job.
I would expect this tractor to run another 30 years as many of it's predecessors from other manufacturers as long as parts can be replaced as they expectedly wear out.
The tractor is not run hard nor used every day. My daily drive is a jeep a few years older - this ain't my only rodeo.
The advice I got from some here was taken. I got cylinders that have steel gland nuts and will be serviceable in the future.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I've gotten help on other forums and not trolled in rebuilding a Dewalt radial arm saw from the 50's that was built like a tank. Never got a response "what do you expect from a 68 yr old saw". It needed bearings and the members there gave me NAPA part numbers. It came apart and went back together with no problems. Beautiful machine.
Same thing with a 67 yr old Choremaster chain saw. Picked it up at a flea market and resurrected that, too. Came apart, and everything was serviceable down to the points. Members supplied parts schematics for the repairs.
This cylinder was nowhere as old, and what difference does it make how old a serviceable part is if you can't get to the parts that are expected wear out?
I had limited time to work on this tractor. The bucket cylinders were serviceable and allotted the same time, budget, and brought south only the tools needed from the previous experience for this job. It's an easy job.
I would expect this tractor to run another 30 years as many of it's predecessors from other manufacturers as long as parts can be replaced as they expectedly wear out.
The tractor is not run hard nor used every day. My daily drive is a jeep a few years older - this ain't my only rodeo.
The advice I got from some here was taken. I got cylinders that have steel gland nuts and will be serviceable in the future.

I have never seen one of these cylinders but based on the discussion I think it's safe to say it was a crappy design.

I think its also safe to assume Kubota had little to do with the cylinder design outside of some generic specifications like mounting geometry and load ratings. They shopped that specification around to cylinder OEMs and awarded a contract to one of the bidders who did thev detailed design and production.

The bad news - it is now a discontinued part that can't be cost-effectively rebuilt.

The good news - it's a generic part for which there inexpensive and readily available new OTS substitutes. Someone here gave you a link to one and hopefully it's a simple and quick swap.

So whats the big problem?

Would you be happier if Kubota had Magister paint their cylinders orange, created a new superseding part number for them, and sold them and Magisters rebuild kits as genuine updated Kubota replacement parts?

Dan