Anyone done this. I've built a 3 ft extension to go on the top of the auger but was wondering if there was any problom lifting the auger from that far down. I know I'll have to get it up, prop it, disconnect the ext and rehook the auger to the phd. My water level is about 5 ft down, was hopeing to get at leas 10 to 15 feet down.
Digging shallow well with phd
- Thread starter ipz2222
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North Idaho Wolfman
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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
I would think you should be able to do it.
Your going to have to run it in and out several times to get all the material out.
Worse case scenario is that you will need some assistance from some thing like an A frame to help lift it out, heck I would use one just to hold up the auger bit on change outs of the extensions.
Your going to have to run it in and out several times to get all the material out.
Worse case scenario is that you will need some assistance from some thing like an A frame to help lift it out, heck I would use one just to hold up the auger bit on change outs of the extensions.
Problem likely won't be lifting it out, but the torque on lightweight tubing that most PHD augers are made with. If you are at about 6" or less, you shouldn't have much of an issue.
To be honest, I have a design to do just this but with a separate frame for the 'drill' and a PHD only acting as a driver unit to utilize the PTO of the tractor. The drill frame is going to be able to use common pipe and have center lift for the debris using water and air. I haven't gotten around to building it yet, but once I do, you can be certain I'll post the results up here.
Again, I advise keeping it small as you can, a 12" auger bit at 10' of length will likely tear up any intermediate drilling pipes of a weak nature, and then your bit would really be stuck down there with no way to get it up at all!
To be honest, I have a design to do just this but with a separate frame for the 'drill' and a PHD only acting as a driver unit to utilize the PTO of the tractor. The drill frame is going to be able to use common pipe and have center lift for the debris using water and air. I haven't gotten around to building it yet, but once I do, you can be certain I'll post the results up here.
Again, I advise keeping it small as you can, a 12" auger bit at 10' of length will likely tear up any intermediate drilling pipes of a weak nature, and then your bit would really be stuck down there with no way to get it up at all!
So far , it's working. I've hit a large rock that the auger hangs on and I have to hand "back twist it out". I just asked my wife if she would let me hang her by the feet and drop her down in the hole to get the rock out. I got "that look", she won't help me do nothing. I think I got the rock busted with a long steel pole. After a nap, I'll try again. I've already hit water at 5 feet.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bore-Hole-T...576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e71c6610
That will deal with your rocks for you, can be made with NPT threads to adapt to standard galv/black pipe. You can also attach a trash pump to the pipe and suck out the debris so you don't have to keep lifting the bit out to get the debris out. It's a better drilling head than your auger anyway. If you plan to do a few wells, it is well (pardon the pun) worth it. Or you can sell it to your neighbor for nearly what you bought it for when he goes to dig his well... HAHAHAHAHAHA!
That will deal with your rocks for you, can be made with NPT threads to adapt to standard galv/black pipe. You can also attach a trash pump to the pipe and suck out the debris so you don't have to keep lifting the bit out to get the debris out. It's a better drilling head than your auger anyway. If you plan to do a few wells, it is well (pardon the pun) worth it. Or you can sell it to your neighbor for nearly what you bought it for when he goes to dig his well... HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Don't have a use for it, but I like it.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bore-Hole-T...576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e71c6610
That will deal with your rocks for you, can be made with NPT threads to adapt to standard galv/black pipe. You can also attach a trash pump to the pipe and suck out the debris so you don't have to keep lifting the bit out to get the debris out. It's a better drilling head than your auger anyway. If you plan to do a few wells, it is well (pardon the pun) worth it. Or you can sell it to your neighbor for nearly what you bought it for when he goes to dig his well... HAHAHAHAHAHA!
It's just been my experience that augers have limited ability to handle hard stuff. If you were in mixed clay/rock, the earth would laugh at a standard auger. If it was predrilled with something like that, the auger could then expand the hole out to the wider size easily, so it's not entirely useless for even standard holes.
My land is mostly flat, old river bottom silt and pretty easy to drill. I'm still getting a head like that in case I need a hole someplace and mother nature decided to drop a rock right under that hole location. Of course, that's only when mother nature is in cahoots with the Demon Murphy and I really hate it when they party down together on my behalf... ugh.
My land is mostly flat, old river bottom silt and pretty easy to drill. I'm still getting a head like that in case I need a hole someplace and mother nature decided to drop a rock right under that hole location. Of course, that's only when mother nature is in cahoots with the Demon Murphy and I really hate it when they party down together on my behalf... ugh.
Well , as I said in the other misplaced post, " the rock won:" It bent one of the spiral teeth on the auger. I think I'm deep enough for what I want but I can't get the gravel and small rock out. It just slides off the auger when I pull it up. I made a "bucket" out of 4 " pvc with a cutting/lifting edge on the bottom but it only picks up a handfull at a time. I've got one more idea.
This is relatively expensive but you could make something like it.
http://www.linemen-tools.com/Spoon_Shovel_10_Oshkosh_2026W_p/osh 2026w.htm
http://www.linemen-tools.com/Spoon_Shovel_10_Oshkosh_2026W_p/osh 2026w.htm
The last idea didn't work either. I bought another hand post hole digger, cut the blades off it and bolted them to my other post hole digger upside down. this gave me a little lip on the bottom. Didn't help. The curved sides were allways catching a small rock between them and not lettting the blades come together , this allowed everything to fall out the bottom except the one small rock. When it did work, I was able to get a double handful of mud and gravel/rocks out.
You can try a water hose and a largish trash pump, 2" or better to lift out the water. I'd say shop vac but you're already into the ground water and unless it's a slow fill, it will never win against the water! (especially as you go deeper!)
That bit I linked can take a 2" drill line. If you build a proper discharge/input top to allow compressed air to be pumped down a hose to the drill head, it will 'lift' the rock and debris right up like a suction lift as you add water to the hole, all while you drill.
To show you the principle in action, and done cheap with PVC pipe, you can watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ANS4awOxrI
His 'services' aren't what I'd call professional, but the principle being used does work and can be adapted for a tractor digging operation. The technique he uses does NOT work in large rock, but fine for small rocks and sand areas.
All in all, it may be more work than it's worth for a shallow well, a company can come out and dig it with an extend a hoe in an hour, put in your casings/linings and backfill. One 15' deep shallow well for $200.
That bit I linked can take a 2" drill line. If you build a proper discharge/input top to allow compressed air to be pumped down a hose to the drill head, it will 'lift' the rock and debris right up like a suction lift as you add water to the hole, all while you drill.
To show you the principle in action, and done cheap with PVC pipe, you can watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ANS4awOxrI
His 'services' aren't what I'd call professional, but the principle being used does work and can be adapted for a tractor digging operation. The technique he uses does NOT work in large rock, but fine for small rocks and sand areas.
All in all, it may be more work than it's worth for a shallow well, a company can come out and dig it with an extend a hoe in an hour, put in your casings/linings and backfill. One 15' deep shallow well for $200.
Russell King
Well-known member
Equipment
L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Search for "boston digger" and it may be what you need to clean out the hole. Picture shown below.
Back in the old days when I was free labor for my father we would use a 1 pound coffee can to reach down into the hole to clean it out. After you reached as far as your arm could then we had "built" a version of "can on the end of a stick" to clean out the hole.
Now you would have to buy a small metal pot or bowl in place of a coffee can.
Back in the old days when I was free labor for my father we would use a 1 pound coffee can to reach down into the hole to clean it out. After you reached as far as your arm could then we had "built" a version of "can on the end of a stick" to clean out the hole.
Now you would have to buy a small metal pot or bowl in place of a coffee can.
shaun, I've got a pump to get the water out, it's the rocks I can't get out, thumbnail to fist size. I've watched 18 of those diy well drilling u tubes. Sand, dirt and very small gravel can be gotton out with those methods but not larger rocks. I may try to use that mthod to just get a 2 inch pipe another 3 feet down. Russell, that boston digger looks like it might work. I would have to extend the reach. Thanks for all the ideas. The well is not all that critical, I just hate to be defeated.
What's the well for? What sort of final casing will you use?
These sort of things shoould be mentioned here, since there may be some that have experience with them. for instance will there be filtering of the water so mud , silt , etc won't come along. The size of the openings of most gravels, etc is one fifth the particle diameter. Screens can get plugged if there is no ta graded filter beyond that. As a rough guide, a mix of concrete aggregate, including sand through gravel sizes usually will do the job. Only of course no cement. There the sand controls what finally gets by.
These sort of things shoould be mentioned here, since there may be some that have experience with them. for instance will there be filtering of the water so mud , silt , etc won't come along. The size of the openings of most gravels, etc is one fifth the particle diameter. Screens can get plugged if there is no ta graded filter beyond that. As a rough guide, a mix of concrete aggregate, including sand through gravel sizes usually will do the job. Only of course no cement. There the sand controls what finally gets by.
CERLawson and ShaunRH bring up good points.
For what it's worth, seems like a lot of trouble unless you're in it for the educational / experimental experience.
If the water is that shallow, get a backhoe and dig a trench maybe 10-ft long as deep as you can.
Lay in bottom of trench 2-inch solid PVC slitted crossways every 6-inches about half-way through the pipe diameter. Get a filter sock from a box store and install over pipe. Orient horizontal pipe with slits 'down' in trench; make an "L"-shape with 2-inch PVC extending to surface. Backfill with smallish gravel to above the water zone, followed by sand and topsoil.
This way you maximize productivity of the inflowing water---you effectively increase the well's "Productivity Index", or PI, as the well receives influx from a much larger subsurface volume (10-ft long x water strata thickness x ??-ft to effective outer edge of water drawdown zone---compared to a 2-inch circle (2-in diameter x thickness of water zone x ??-ft to outer edge) of a vertical well) of water-producing substrata.
I used 6-in PVC in mine; I understand in your part of the world hand-driven 2-inch 'sand-point' wells are relatively common, which sounds like what you're trying to accomplish.
I've done this--trenching--in my specific area and if water is really shallow and has any volume at all you 'll get more than you can use and a heck of a lot more than a single vertical pipe in the ground will provide.
I urge caution if you are considering the water for for domestic potable service. I don't think you can get any decent surface well seal to prevent cross contamination from surface flow using your method or mine. If you think you can, consider using a couple inches (minimum) thickness layer of cement powder (better if you can find in your area bentonite clay for drilling fluid and mix with cement 50-50) made part of the backfill above the water zone and couple feet below grade. Such a barrier to surface flow will at least help.
Please post back your experiences and results of your efforts so we may all learn.
For what it's worth, seems like a lot of trouble unless you're in it for the educational / experimental experience.
If the water is that shallow, get a backhoe and dig a trench maybe 10-ft long as deep as you can.
Lay in bottom of trench 2-inch solid PVC slitted crossways every 6-inches about half-way through the pipe diameter. Get a filter sock from a box store and install over pipe. Orient horizontal pipe with slits 'down' in trench; make an "L"-shape with 2-inch PVC extending to surface. Backfill with smallish gravel to above the water zone, followed by sand and topsoil.
This way you maximize productivity of the inflowing water---you effectively increase the well's "Productivity Index", or PI, as the well receives influx from a much larger subsurface volume (10-ft long x water strata thickness x ??-ft to effective outer edge of water drawdown zone---compared to a 2-inch circle (2-in diameter x thickness of water zone x ??-ft to outer edge) of a vertical well) of water-producing substrata.
I used 6-in PVC in mine; I understand in your part of the world hand-driven 2-inch 'sand-point' wells are relatively common, which sounds like what you're trying to accomplish.
I've done this--trenching--in my specific area and if water is really shallow and has any volume at all you 'll get more than you can use and a heck of a lot more than a single vertical pipe in the ground will provide.
I urge caution if you are considering the water for for domestic potable service. I don't think you can get any decent surface well seal to prevent cross contamination from surface flow using your method or mine. If you think you can, consider using a couple inches (minimum) thickness layer of cement powder (better if you can find in your area bentonite clay for drilling fluid and mix with cement 50-50) made part of the backfill above the water zone and couple feet below grade. Such a barrier to surface flow will at least help.
Please post back your experiences and results of your efforts so we may all learn.
Stubby:
Looks like you have done this before. Even though I am a, old civil engineer, I have difficulty following your verbal description. Why not sketch what it looks like for pipe layout, T" fittings, etc. and take a photo or scan of it. You can add several of these sketches to a post and I think that will help a lot.
To simplify what you are proposing, and considering danger of working in a trench, I'd put together the piping above ground before the trench is extended down (cave-in is likely). Since your inlets will be slotted PVC, it is not necessary to fool with filter fabric if you surround the pipe with ASTM-C-33 fine aggregate. That is the coarse sand that is used in concrete mixes. That is a perfect filter for most soils. Placing the slots down also helps, but even if holes are drilled for the bottom third, 3/16" diam, that works pretty well with minimum of sand coming in.
What I do for under-drains, removing ground water, is as follows: Dig the trench and follow immediately with the black wrinkled slotted, pipe and backfill the zone near the pipe with that concrete sand. Do this rapidly before cave in starts. On these jobs I don't allow any gravel on the job, since well meaning workmen seem to think that is better. It isn't, since it is not a filter. For the slotted pipe very little sand gets in until the slots are bridged over. Concrete sand costs about the same as gravel and is plenty porous for these installations.
In this job, I'd backfill up with that sand to the water table, followed by the soil that came out. I doubt that a seal above the porous stuff will do any good at purifying the infiltration water, by diverting it some. I'd also be careful of any bentonite, since that stuff can expand to 16 times it's original volume and raise hell with the instillation.
On safety, I once was near buried in a 16 foot deep test pit trench in hard clay and since then don't enter any over 4 feet deep. For this job no trench entry is necessary. Just work fast.
An alternative would be to establish a "man-hole" with holes in the sides. Extend trenches out radially with drainage pipes (the slotted black stuff) backfilled with concrete sand. Put a sump-pump in the man-hole and you really have a source of water. The black plastic sump enclosures might work.
Looks like you have done this before. Even though I am a, old civil engineer, I have difficulty following your verbal description. Why not sketch what it looks like for pipe layout, T" fittings, etc. and take a photo or scan of it. You can add several of these sketches to a post and I think that will help a lot.
To simplify what you are proposing, and considering danger of working in a trench, I'd put together the piping above ground before the trench is extended down (cave-in is likely). Since your inlets will be slotted PVC, it is not necessary to fool with filter fabric if you surround the pipe with ASTM-C-33 fine aggregate. That is the coarse sand that is used in concrete mixes. That is a perfect filter for most soils. Placing the slots down also helps, but even if holes are drilled for the bottom third, 3/16" diam, that works pretty well with minimum of sand coming in.
What I do for under-drains, removing ground water, is as follows: Dig the trench and follow immediately with the black wrinkled slotted, pipe and backfill the zone near the pipe with that concrete sand. Do this rapidly before cave in starts. On these jobs I don't allow any gravel on the job, since well meaning workmen seem to think that is better. It isn't, since it is not a filter. For the slotted pipe very little sand gets in until the slots are bridged over. Concrete sand costs about the same as gravel and is plenty porous for these installations.
In this job, I'd backfill up with that sand to the water table, followed by the soil that came out. I doubt that a seal above the porous stuff will do any good at purifying the infiltration water, by diverting it some. I'd also be careful of any bentonite, since that stuff can expand to 16 times it's original volume and raise hell with the instillation.
On safety, I once was near buried in a 16 foot deep test pit trench in hard clay and since then don't enter any over 4 feet deep. For this job no trench entry is necessary. Just work fast.
An alternative would be to establish a "man-hole" with holes in the sides. Extend trenches out radially with drainage pipes (the slotted black stuff) backfilled with concrete sand. Put a sump-pump in the man-hole and you really have a source of water. The black plastic sump enclosures might work.
It really depends on what his inflow is before he'd need to consider going horizontal. Slitted PVC that deep might be kind of unreliable and collapse in on itself. There are well products made for that function that would be more effective but then again, if it's all on the cheap, I'd go nuts with a 1/8th inch drill bit on the PVC or let the kid do it and burn out a couple of battery charges. That would probably be stronger than slitting.
The design he's speaking of can be expanded in many ways but it's almost easier to have a vertical well with a dedicated tank above ground and a pump that can't exhaust the inflow filling the tank. When full, the pump shuts off and waits for the tank to be used. An Aeromotor style pump works well for shallow wells like this.
The design he's speaking of can be expanded in many ways but it's almost easier to have a vertical well with a dedicated tank above ground and a pump that can't exhaust the inflow filling the tank. When full, the pump shuts off and waits for the tank to be used. An Aeromotor style pump works well for shallow wells like this.
Good dialogue with CERLawson and ShaunRH. Thanks for the continued discussion.
Both bring up good points.
I think the installation as I describe will be locally dependent on soil conditions. In my area a filter sock is an absolute necessity or the 'well' quickly plugs due to fines in a shallow horizontal environment.
No way I'd get in a trench, but here we're only talking about a backhoe slot in the ground maybe 18-in wide. Just make up the PVC in a long "L" shape, decide if you want to use filter fabric or a sock, flop and drop it into the trench hole. A one person job takes five minutes after gluing it up.
There are any number of variations possible by the installer, based on their own experiences and desired outcome. The radial idea proposed by CERLawson would be great, further increasing the well's productivity and is commonly seen in one form or another in construction dewatering jobs.
I've had no problem with collapse of PVC (note I used Sch-40, not lightweight DWV---I detest that stuff in any application). My install is double-ended (using electrical PVC smooth 90-degree bends) so I drag a chimney-cleaning brush through every few years if I think about it. After a one-year trial, I wasn't getting anything out so I mostly forgot about cleaning it until this discussion.
I used hacksaw slits in mine just because it was faster than drilling holes and that was the way my deep waterwells are set up when gravel packed instead of using expensive stainless triangular-wire screens.
Here again, all this discussion is greatly location dependent as to specifics and even availability materials aka using what's handy or cheap.
ShaunRH also brings up how to maximize deliverability from a low-productivity well using a storage tank. In my area a 1,000-gal black (prevents bio fouling) polyethylene tank is a few hundred bucks. If the well makes 1-gallon per minute and you can manage (store) the water, you get 1,440-gals per day every day all day. That's a lot of water. This is exactly the setup I did for a BiL in the mountains of NM at his cabin using a solar lift pump. He can't use all the water he makes from a 1/2-gpm seep.
No picture of mine as it's currently in the ground. Mine is only one of about fifty different ways to accomplish the desired outcome. CERLawson has the process figured out, as will anybody else that puts their own spin on an install that suits their needs.
By the way, mine is used to furnish water to home-built rockpile waterfall fountain. I suspect the setup is mostly capturing ('recycling') water lost from the clay-bottom mini-pond at the base of the rockfall. There are all kinds of little micro perched aquifer stringers on the place that seep just enough to be bothersome and keep the upland willows going. Only a half dozen or so last through the hard summer.
I respectfully disagree about the use of bentonite. In many states it is mandatory for waterwell surface seals, keeping in mind the post-hole dug or trench-type proto dewatering under discussion might not qualify. Yes it is expansive (it's used to crack boulders and foundations in some applications) once hydrated, but that's its beauty. It expands to fill voids and microfractures and creates a seal or barrier to flow. The addition of bentonite to cement powder (as used in well seals, not concrete) creates a strong highly compressive highly elastic somewhat self-healing barrier. The powder can be a pain to work with; in this application the chip or pellet type would probably work.
Back to that trench entry thing: in another life pre-OSHA was repairing a pipeline in a trench when an idiot upline opened a valve by mistake. If my foreman hadn't had ramps dug into the hole I'd be dead instead of writing this. We did manage to finish burning down the pizza joint where the original leak had resulted in an explosion when the ovens were lit. Fun times!
I'd like to know how any part of this process under discussion works for IPZ2222 or any other poster. Please advise your experiences so we may all learn.
Both bring up good points.
I think the installation as I describe will be locally dependent on soil conditions. In my area a filter sock is an absolute necessity or the 'well' quickly plugs due to fines in a shallow horizontal environment.
No way I'd get in a trench, but here we're only talking about a backhoe slot in the ground maybe 18-in wide. Just make up the PVC in a long "L" shape, decide if you want to use filter fabric or a sock, flop and drop it into the trench hole. A one person job takes five minutes after gluing it up.
There are any number of variations possible by the installer, based on their own experiences and desired outcome. The radial idea proposed by CERLawson would be great, further increasing the well's productivity and is commonly seen in one form or another in construction dewatering jobs.
I've had no problem with collapse of PVC (note I used Sch-40, not lightweight DWV---I detest that stuff in any application). My install is double-ended (using electrical PVC smooth 90-degree bends) so I drag a chimney-cleaning brush through every few years if I think about it. After a one-year trial, I wasn't getting anything out so I mostly forgot about cleaning it until this discussion.
I used hacksaw slits in mine just because it was faster than drilling holes and that was the way my deep waterwells are set up when gravel packed instead of using expensive stainless triangular-wire screens.
Here again, all this discussion is greatly location dependent as to specifics and even availability materials aka using what's handy or cheap.
ShaunRH also brings up how to maximize deliverability from a low-productivity well using a storage tank. In my area a 1,000-gal black (prevents bio fouling) polyethylene tank is a few hundred bucks. If the well makes 1-gallon per minute and you can manage (store) the water, you get 1,440-gals per day every day all day. That's a lot of water. This is exactly the setup I did for a BiL in the mountains of NM at his cabin using a solar lift pump. He can't use all the water he makes from a 1/2-gpm seep.
No picture of mine as it's currently in the ground. Mine is only one of about fifty different ways to accomplish the desired outcome. CERLawson has the process figured out, as will anybody else that puts their own spin on an install that suits their needs.
By the way, mine is used to furnish water to home-built rockpile waterfall fountain. I suspect the setup is mostly capturing ('recycling') water lost from the clay-bottom mini-pond at the base of the rockfall. There are all kinds of little micro perched aquifer stringers on the place that seep just enough to be bothersome and keep the upland willows going. Only a half dozen or so last through the hard summer.
I respectfully disagree about the use of bentonite. In many states it is mandatory for waterwell surface seals, keeping in mind the post-hole dug or trench-type proto dewatering under discussion might not qualify. Yes it is expansive (it's used to crack boulders and foundations in some applications) once hydrated, but that's its beauty. It expands to fill voids and microfractures and creates a seal or barrier to flow. The addition of bentonite to cement powder (as used in well seals, not concrete) creates a strong highly compressive highly elastic somewhat self-healing barrier. The powder can be a pain to work with; in this application the chip or pellet type would probably work.
Back to that trench entry thing: in another life pre-OSHA was repairing a pipeline in a trench when an idiot upline opened a valve by mistake. If my foreman hadn't had ramps dug into the hole I'd be dead instead of writing this. We did manage to finish burning down the pizza joint where the original leak had resulted in an explosion when the ovens were lit. Fun times!
I'd like to know how any part of this process under discussion works for IPZ2222 or any other poster. Please advise your experiences so we may all learn.
You could do a 'reverse leach field' system too. Dig the trench, line the bottom with pea gravel, put in leach field 'coffin tops' and drop your vertical into a hole in the coffin top or even a 'sump pump' down in the bottom, DC solar pumps work in this condition.
Again, all this would be under $500 for a complete well, but probably not suitable for potable water unless treated after the fact.
As far as the slitted PVC, since there's no real tests of how to do it that I've seen, that would be my concern for the collapse. If done wrong...
Again, all this would be under $500 for a complete well, but probably not suitable for potable water unless treated after the fact.
As far as the slitted PVC, since there's no real tests of how to do it that I've seen, that would be my concern for the collapse. If done wrong...