carpentry advice needed: square hole problem

[sheepfarmer]

If you remember my thread on putting something plastic on my back blade so as not to gouge up the new concrete?

Well I decided to try the trex approach first before spending money on the stuff designed for the job, and today stopped by a new builder's supply place. Turned out they didn't carry lumber for sale, tney were into kitchens and such, but the boss remembered there was some deck boards out back and he gave me a 12 foot board, and one of the employees cut it in half with a handy chop saw. Free is good! Kindness is remembered! I'll go back.

So I set out to take off the steel edge and put on the 1 x 6 board. Undo 6 bolts take off edge, clamp board in place and mark for hole locations, drill holes, put back bolts, how hard could that be? Well other than the steel edge has square holes in it to make it easy to tighten the nuts without spinning the bolts, until they are loose, and then they are a pain, and the fact that the steel edge weighs about as much as I do, and is now balanced across two dollies, the first part was ok.

Turns out that trex is pretty hard to drill, but I managed to get 6 holes in it big enough for the threaded parts of my bolts with a paddle bit. However I can't think of a way to make a bigger square hole on the other side to fit the shoulders of the bolts that go with the blade and leave a flat round surface flush with the edge. I tried to drill a larger inset with a bigger paddle bit, but couldn't center it with hand held drill. Betting that if you want to do that you drill the bigger hole first? But my marks were on the wrong side of the board and too late now. I am now thinking that never mind countersinking the bolt heads, just go buy some other kind of bolts and leave them stick out with a washer behind the head. The bolt heads will be on the exposed plowing surface.

I thought I'd ask for advice on bolt choices and other ideas before I wasted too much time. My tools selection is pretty limited.

 

[Grouse Feathers]

The bolts with the square section below the head are called carriage bolts. Normally when using them with wood, you just tighten the nut and pull the square section down into the round hole. The square section keeps it from turning in a round hole in wood. If you are using trex I am pretty sure you can pull the square section into the round hole, but I am not sure the trex will keep the head from turning. Try it and if the head starts spinning replace the bolts with hex head bolts with a washer under the head for additional support and the heads exposed.
Next time as you suggested drill the counter sink hole first, but make it large enough for a washer on the bolt head. The heads may pull through the trex without a washer.

 

[bcp]

I think I'd use large carriage bolts, instead of the original "plow" bolts, and let tightening them form square holes. But I'm not familiar with that material, so it might not work. I'd try it, though.

Bruce

 

[L4740]

An easy way to mark a hole on both sides of a board is to mark your hole and then drill a very small hole all the way through the board. Just make sure you are in the center of your mark. Then from one side you can drill your over size hole and then drill the smaller hole all the way through. But that would be for future projects. The original bolts are called plow bolts and are available at any dealer or farm store. What you need would be a simple carriage bolt. No need to drill the over sized hole. Just insert the bolt and and tighten from the other side with the nut. The force of tightening the bolt will actually pull the square part of the bolt into the trex.
But in my opinion, the trex will wear down very quickly dragging it across cement and will probably not have the cutting edge needed to remove packed snow. It may just ride up over it. Especially after it is worn off. But you can always try it and let us know how it works.
Another simple solution may be to do what I do when I don't want the blade digging into soft gravel driveways. Just turn your blade around 180 degrees and pull it backwards. I use my blade most the time that way for snow removal.

 

[D2Cat]

The bolts you removed are probably plow bolts. They are made to set into the metal, not turn, and flush mount on face. I would put those bolts in a can and save them if/when you mount the steel edge back on.

I would suggest using the carriage bolts. The square shoulder should pull into the hole as you tighten the nut. If the head wants to turn, take a crescent wrench (also known as an open end adjustable wrench!) and adjust it so you can clamp down on just the head of the bolt as you tighten the nut.

If you think the square shoulder of the carriage bolt will crack/splinter the material then use a hex head bolt. Just put a flat washer next to the board and tighten. Will work just fine moving snow!!

 

[Diydave]

What you need is the square drill bit. Just kidding. Drill hole to bolt size, countersink to head size and angle. Take some square stock, the same size as the square on bolt, and heat it to cherry red. Plunge it into the hole , to melt the square in. You might be able to eliminate the last step, and just stick the bolt in, and the square might just bite into the plastic stuff, like it does in wood.

If it was me doing it, I'd do the first 2 steps, then heat up the head end of one of the bolts, and use it as the mold or form for making the square. You might want to test what works best, on a scrap piece... Also, put some never seize compound on the bolts threads when you re-assemble, cause that plastic is weaker than wood, when it comes to removing them bolts, in the future...

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thanks guys, that gives me a place to start tomorrow when I go to the hardware store. Thanks bcp for the picture, yes what the plow came with are plow bolts, I guess no surprise to everyone but me! But why else do we do this except to learn new things. If I get 6 or 7 each of the carriage bolts and the hex head bolts I can do the experiments proposed. If all else fails I can put the steel edge back on, although that may not be as easy as I thought it would be. Thank goodness the 3 pt hitch holds up the rest of the blade! I should have done this last week when it was 60 out instead of waiting until I had a foot of slush that slid off the roofs into that alley way and which, now that my trex experiment took longer than I thought it would, is probably freezing into an unmoveable mass that even the steel blade would have trouble with Let's hope for the traditional January thaw this year

Diydave, what do you use to heat up bolts that hot? Not your toaster oven I bet. My farrier is coming next week, and he has a nifty forge, but not sure he'd want to get involved in this little project.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Dyidave,
They do make square hole drill bits! I have 1 or 2 hanging out in the shop.

sheepfarmer,
I've done quite a bit with trex, and other materials just like it.
I don't know how well it will hold up as it can become brittle in the cold and can get soft with age, but for free I would give it a try.
Get carriage bolts that are long enough and same size diameter as the plow bolts, put them in the hole, if you can put the lock washer and nut on the back, then smack the bolt head with a hammer then tighten the nut up.

One Note: Most carriage bolts are not hardened, or not hardened to the strength of plow bolts, so you might break them just from shear weight and force on the blade.

If you want to save some abuse on yourself, invest in an Impact gun, air if you have it, electric if you don't have a compressor.
Make changing things like a plow bolts and other overly large or tight bolts much easier!

 

[Diydave]

NIW, there are ways to drill a square hole, other than the mortising bit...

I omitted the tried and true (but slow!) method of a 3 or 4 cornered file, and the broach method.

Here is a drill press jig, but have seen a a computerized rig that needs no pilot hole.

https://youtu.be/rjckF0-VeGI

Problem is that all involve more cost, than economical, to drill 6-8 holes.

A home made broach is what the heated bolt approaches. I generally don't like heating bolts, but you can always put the soft (heated bolt), in the middle, when you are done with the fab, where it is in a more protected spot...

 

[sheepfarmer]

NIW thank you! I love it that you could really make a square hole with power tools. I briefly considered a chisel, but thought that plastic would be too much for my already abused chisel set. And my patience. Whatever my board is made out of it is really heavy and hard, but the bit did make curls of material once it dug in. I have holes drilled so only about 1.5-2 inches is not supported by the blade, and it is 1 actual inch thick, since I wondered if it would fracture.

Can you please make more specific suggestions about impact guns and associated accessories? Getting those plow bolts off required a hammer applied to my biggest crescent wrench and a lot of pb blaster. (I need some more bigger sockets to fit my new breaker bar toolmania is setting in again!) Speaking of which a double set of tools would be nice, it is too far from my basement to the barn....


The fence guys had some little impact tools that looked like battery powered drills that they used on gate hinge bolts, but I think might be too light for this purpose. I have electrical outlets all over my new pole barn so that type might be the easiest. I did get a new compressor that might work, not sure. Will read directions.

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate being able to learn how to do stuff myself. Didn't grow up with a do it yourself family, so always starting from near scratch.

 

[CaveCreekRay]

Lighter duty impact wrenches are really handy because you can't goof stuff up too bad by going the wrong direction. If you are gonna go electric, they fall into the lower class of impact tools.

Here's a highly rated model for $80 (240 ft lbs)

http://smile.amazon.com/HAMMERHEAD_HDIW075_7-5-AMP-2-inch-Impact-Wrench/dp/B00OZHIN0S/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1451485363&sr=8-7&keywords=Electric+impact+tools

Here's a higher power name brand for twice as much...

http://smile.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW292-7-5-Amp-2-Inch-Impact/dp/B0009HM5OI/ref=pd_sim_469_5?ie=UTF8&dpID=41w7zSPNELL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=1JV6T98MB7PCK39VMYWC

With the lower power impact tools, you can get by using standard heavy-duty sockets but cheaper thin-wall sockets may break. Impact tools can crack standard sockets or extensions so if you are doing a lot of "impact driving" you may want to get a set of impact sockets. They are not that expensive from Harbor Freight and have a lifetime warranty. They are on sale all the time and a good assortment of sizes in a 1/2" set would run around $30 in metric and of course, you'd want a set in SAE. Plus a set of 1/2" impact extensions. Remember you'll have to use a heavy 12 ga or better extension cord to get the full power out of an electrical tool.

I taught my daughter how to do her own brakes in college. When she discovered impact tools, she was hooked. Right after she got married she found a compressor and some cheap air tools on sale and bought them. She uses them exclusively to get the wheels off and big nuts broken. (I also bought her a nice set of breaker bars from Harbor freight. Then she puts it back together by hand and uses a torque wrench to finish them off.

Ray

JUST SAW THIS! I would not be afraid of buying a re-furb DeWalt tool. I have several that have run years just like new. This would be my choice as it gives you a little more umphh. 300 ft lbs is about as low as you want to go. If you always lube your wheel studs with anti-sieze grease, a 300 ft/lb impact will always get your wheels off.

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0009HM5OI/ref=dp_olp_refurbished?ie=UTF8&condition=refurbished

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thanks Ray, I have some Harbor Freight coupons, and there is a store across town. I have never been there so could be quite the expedition. Didn't know a different kind of sockets is advisable, so that is helpful.

The compressor is a campbell hausfeld oilless type. Max pressure 110 psi, delivrrs 0.39 SCFM @ 90 psi. No clue if that is good for any of these apps. It has a couple of tanks and a coiled hose, and some accessory connectors. It is not so good at attaching to little tires like those on my landscape rake.

Will search for some decent carriage bolts this morning. And some anti sieze stuff!

 

[D2Cat]

If you are going to use anti seize be sure to have some latex glove handy. (you can get a box of 100 cheapees at HF for $5) You get a tad of that stuff on your fingers and you have it for a while!!

 

[CaveCreekRay]

D2 brings up a common point many still haven't adopted yet: Get in a habit of wearing latex or similar gloves whenever you work with greasy or messy stuff. Tractor service, FEL greasing, oil changing, anything that gets gook on your paws. Its so nice to peel back a nasty/dirty glove and see clean skin. Plus, they cut down on the number of cuts and scrapes you get.

Small compressors don't have the lungs to run air power tools without repeatedly running to re-charge. And with lower pressure, your air tool don't work very well. Looks like in your case an electric impact would be better... unless you are looking for a reason to upgrade your compressor. You can always put the nice one in the workshop and take the other one up the your garage for truck and car tires.

The mid-size Home Depot RIGID compressors are awesome and under $200.

CHOICES CHOICES!!!

Good luck!!!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Go electric, as your air compressor won't cut it.

This:
http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drivers/12-in-heavy-duty-electric-impact-wrench-61173.html

And this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/37-pc-38-in-12-in-drive-sae-metric-impact-socket-set-68011.html

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thanks NIW, hope the sale is still on tomorrow! Have just come home with grade 8 hex head bolts, local hardware store didn't have carriage bolts above half inch and these are 5/8. So it will be the hex head plus washer approach tried first. Also bought one deep 15/16 th socket so the nuts will be easier to get on/off than yesterday's efforts. Funny how things morph to what is handy when you live out in the country so to speak. Was avoiding Lowe's. Like the local Ace, they hire elderly guys and veterans so you actually get real help if you go there. This particular guy looked at me and said do you have an impact wrench, and I said it was on my wish list. But the bolts were expensive, 2.43 apiece so my bill was more than I expected of course the socket wasn't cheap either.

Will report progress.

 

[cerlawson]

Since you have an air compressor, I'd opt for impact tools run by air. The 3/4" Harbor Freight is about 100 bucks but it will also serve for servicing your tractor and truck/car wheels that have to be tightened way up. The 1/2" tools are not powerful enough to handle most wheel nuts or bolts in my view. Just remember the 3/4" even at low setting is darn strong, over 100 foot pounds. A torque wrench also is handy for making the final enlightening to be sure you don t tighten too much.

 

[D2Cat]

sheepfarmer, as I read this thread (and others you post) I am absolutely amazed at your tenacious courage at taking on some of the project you find yourself up against. You have way more mechanical aptitude then you give yourself credit for, and you mention you did not grow up in a DIY family. To take bits of information, and add to it, then single handily begin to modify an implement to do what you need it to do. Not only do you get the bolts, bits, sockets, tools and use them, but you have to go to the store and inquire about something you're not absolutely positive about, to someone you don't know.

The projects you detail on here really get my attention. Then I think what would happen if I had to fix a complete Thanksgiving Dinner...........NO WAY!

 

[sheepfarmer]

Then I think what would happen if I had to fix a complete Thanksgiving Dinner...........NO WAY!

D2 a complete Thanksgiving dinner strikes fear into the heart of nearly everyone, experienced cook or not The tractor, if critical of my efforts, never says anything. A mother in law on the other hand...

 

[sheepfarmer]

The good news: the new socket made installation of the new bolts and the board easy, so swapping back and forth between the two edges could now be done in about half an hour. I could see no reason to tighten down the lock nuts too much on the board. Got dark so I couldn't try it out, not to mention the bad news: I kicked one of the piles of "snow" and my foot bounced off it. Looks more like a job for a pick axe and the FEL now Further bad news is despite the rock like consistency of the slush pile, the ground is not frozen, so the tractor is going to dig everything up something awful accessing the alleyway.