1977 245dt

[mllkn6]

Hi, I'm new here, probably wouldn't be here but I need help with my Kubota 245 DT (1977). I purchased it new in 1977, been a super tractor and never had any engine work done to it, except the usually maintenance over the years. Never had one minutes problem with anything at all as far as the motor goes.
I used the tractor yesterday for a few hours and everything worked fine, nothing to give any hint as what was to happen this morning. I went out and started it up as usually, sort of a harder start that it usually does but as soon as it fired off, there was a knocking that came from the engine. Not sure where, a minute or so later, white smoke and maybe a little mist of water vapor started to come from the air filter in front, I was going to raise the front bucket so I could get hood open and realized I had no hydraulics either to the front or 3 point hitch.
There is usually a little knocking sound but this was louder, noticed it right away, was trying to get it back to my shop about 100 feet away, but the bucket wouldn't come up at all. My bush hog on the 3 point hitch is off the ground and I can figure out a way to use a come-a-long to raise my bucket just enough to get it off the ground, then I can move it to my shop and start to figure out what to do.
I'm no mechanic by any means, but growing up on a working family farm I got my fair share of mechanical experiences, I have an idea what might be wrong, but need any help I can get to figure this out.
I'm retired from public work but still depend on farming as a second income, so buying a new one isn't an option for me, this tractor has been our bread and butter for 40 years, along with an old 51 JD "B". But it doesn't have the front end loader nor the attachments for planting we have for the Kubota.
Come on guys, a little help would be greatly appreciated for a newbie. Any ideas what went bad before I tear into it?
I know there are some of you fellows and maybe gals that know a whole lot more about these tractors than I do, HELP.
Thank you in advance for any help you can offer.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

It's not sounding good!
I think your best bet would be to pull the head first and look for damage there.
But sadly knocking is almost always caused by crank bearings going out.

 

[mllkn6]

Thanks, North Idaho Wolfman, you know you could have said something like drink a cold beer add some to the radiator and it will be OK. LOL
But you are about on the same page that I'm on, the smoke and watch vapor from the Air Cleaner makes me think blown head gasket also, plus maybe a rod or piston broken, crank bearing, or who knows what else.
Sort of like a woman, can't live without it and can't afford to fix it either. But got to do what I got to do, after 40 years it would be hard to do without it. Everything is set up around that little tractor, it's been a sweet one too. Sure made my life a whole lot easier over the years and I'm to old to start doing without it.
It's either fix this one or look around for a replacement motor which will almost be impossible to find.
Thanks, North Idaho Wolfman, if anyone else has any other ideas, they will be greatly appreciated, never been into one of these engines before, hoped I never would, Like I said I'm no mechanic, but after 67 years necessity has been a great teacher. I appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[rbargeron]

As an early buyer of a Kubota you should have OTT member support especially now the tractor is near its 40th birthday. You could go open a cold beer and be optimistic - there's plenty of time for gloom later if this L245 really has a serious problem. The symptoms indicate more than one cause.

Check your hydraulic hoses and trans level. Loss of hydraulic function usually points to a popped off connector or plugged screen. (or possibly a broken part in the pump drive - right side of engine behind the governor).

The intake spitting is unlikely to be related to the hydraulics. Does the engine sound normal turning over on the starter? Once it starts does the white smoke continue, or does it get less? Despite the clatter does the engine seem to run on all cylinders? Does it skip?

A leaking head gasket pressurizes the cooling system. On cool-down coolant leaks into the combustion chamber, causing noise on startup - and maybe some steaming blow-back thru the intake until it clears out.

Open the radiator cap and see if it's blowing out water or bubbles when running? If so a new head gasket may fix it.

 

[mllkn6]

As an early buyer of a Kubota you should have OTT member support especially now the tractor is near its 40th birthday. You could go open a cold beer and be optimistic - there's plenty of time for gloom later if this L245 really has a serious problem. The symptoms indicate more than one cause.

Check your hydraulic hoses and trans level. Loss of hydraulic function usually points to a popped off connector or plugged screen. (or possibly a broken part in the pump drive - right side of engine behind the governor).

The intake spitting is unlikely to be related to the hydraulics. Does the engine sound normal turning over on the starter? Once it starts does the white smoke continue, or does it get less? Despite the clatter does the engine seem to run on all cylinders? Does it skip?

A leaking head gasket pressurizes the cooling system. On cool-down coolant leaks into the combustion chamber, causing noise on startup - and maybe some steaming blow-back thru the intake until it clears out.

Open the radiator cap and see if it's blowing out water or bubbles when running? If so a new head gasket may fix it.

You maybe my hero, things look better today than yesterday too, not the tractor, been letting it sit, being Sunday also while I worked up a game plan of attack. I'm not familiar with the OTT member support you spoke of, but really interested in hearing about it, any support is appreciated.
First thing Monday I plan to change the oil and filter to check for metal, along with my other fluids levels, I'll also change the Hydraulic filter and check the levels there also along with the crank case.
The engine started fine just took a few seconds longer to start being jumped off, my generator went out a week ago, my step son's dad rebuilds electrical motors, so my step son is scheduled to rebuild (FREE) mine next weekend. I plan to change the diesel fuel out and the fuel filter while I'm at it, may have gotten some water in this last batch I put in the afternoon before.
The smoke continues as long as it was running, when I upped the RPM's it became worst. It didn't run over 3 or 4 minutes before I cut it off, didn't want any more damage than I might have. I plan to check each cylinder by opening the fuel line at the injector to see how it effects the sound, it wasn't skipping that I could tell in the short time it ran.
I check the coolant lever while it was running, was about where I expected it to be, wasn't any coolant spitting out or bubbling that I could see. It was still cold like I said it only run a few minutes.
I have always kept it in pretty good shape and done all the maintenance on it myself, the RPM meter was working the day before but noticed it wasn't when I was about to cut it off, any ideas there. I have been going through the old owners manual which has all the parts listed and diagrams, this is the Japan model. If I order any parts I have to tell them that so I can get the right part, one of my injector lines started leaking a few years back, 4 months later and wrong parts shipped 3 different times, I got the right one after they figured out it had to come from Japan, nothing made here will work.
I really appreciate your help, also had some friends on Facebook offer suggestions that I will check out also. It doesn't cost anything to look and that way I can cross some things off the list.
Again, thanks.

 

[mllkn6]

As an early buyer of a Kubota you should have OTT member support especially now the tractor is near its 40th birthday. You could go open a cold beer and be optimistic - there's plenty of time for gloom later if this L245 really has a serious problem. The symptoms indicate more than one cause.

Check your hydraulic hoses and trans level. Loss of hydraulic function usually points to a popped off connector or plugged screen. (or possibly a broken part in the pump drive - right side of engine behind the governor).

The intake spitting is unlikely to be related to the hydraulics. Does the engine sound normal turning over on the starter? Once it starts does the white smoke continue, or does it get less? Despite the clatter does the engine seem to run on all cylinders? Does it skip?

A leaking head gasket pressurizes the cooling system. On cool-down coolant leaks into the combustion chamber, causing noise on startup - and maybe some steaming blow-back thru the intake until it clears out.

Open the radiator cap and see if it's blowing out water or bubbles when running? If so a new head gasket may fix it.

Thanks for your reply rbargeron, I appreciate all the help I can get. Never heard of the OTT, like to know more.
My plans were to spend the day working on it but the rain sort of stopped that. I plan to check and change all fluids and filters, including diesel fuel as I think the last 2 or 3 gallons in a can might have been old that I put in the day before.
I only run the tractor about 4 minutes at best, first I thought I had a radiator leak till I opened the hood and seen it coming from the breather, when I upped the RPM's it made more smoke and I noticed the RPM gauge wasn't working.
The engine sounded like it was firing on all 3 cylinders then and wasn't skipping at all, just a louder knocking than usually. I opened the radiator since it wasn't even warm to check the level which was about where it should have been, no spitting coolant out or bubbling that I seen.
I figured I need to shut it down as fast as possible till I figured it out so no further damage was done, but wanted to lift the front end loader bucket off the ground so I could tow it to my shop about 150 feet away. That's when I noticed no hydraulic on the front, didn't check the PTO or the 3 point hitch as my bush hog was hooked up and I didn't want it on the ground also as it was raised up, that is when I shut it down.
I'll go back at it tomorrow, the knocking wasn't excessively loud, just louder than I'm used to, the tractor probably hasn't gotten over 4000 hours on it. I have serviced it since I bought it myself, I know exactly how I should sound and it run great the day before the 2 hours I used it.
A small tornado came through a few nights before, took the tops out of a couple of 100 feet pines and deposited the 40 feet sections on my front steps and porch, blew over a couple of more trees also. I had been cutting them up so I could move and push them into a place where I could burn them and plan to finish that Saturday. The roof of my house has limbs scattered all across it so I planned to raise the bucket to sweep and put them into it, lot better than picking them up twice. I made myself a leveling rod years ago and welded it to the front end frame and attached I to the bucket, got tired of looking over the side to see when it was level. I welded some teeth onto the bucket from where we changed the crawler teeth out at work, split those puppies, beat the splits flat and welded them every 8" right onto the front of the bucket, hardest part was keeping them level while I welded them.
I'm not a mechanic more a jack of all trades type person, raised on the farm so we didn't have money to spend on someone else fixing things, motors, transmissions, gear boxes, plumbing, wiring, or what ever, between my dad and grandfather with me as their gofer it got done.
I appreciate your input and help, any advice you can offer I will gladly take. Thank you.

 

[Daren Todd]

OTT is this site Orange Tractor Talks

 

[D2Cat]

Mllkn6, I've read your post a couple of times and there seems to be a couple of things not working that have nothing to do with each other.

One, is the hydraulics. You mention no hydraulic to the front or the 3 pt. As mentioned it sure sounds like a quick connection is not locked in place. Might disconnect each one, one at a time, and re-connect.

Two, is the RPM gauge wasn't working. My guess it hasn't been working for at least a while, and you just never noticed it? Either way, that's probably a totally different problem then the engine.

Now, you mention you used the tractor for 2 hrs the day before without any unusual noises.

You noticed white smoke or ,maybe a little mist of water.

No bubbling in the radiator. Then you mention, "The engine sounded like it was firing on all 3 cylinders then and wasn't skipping at all, just a louder knocking than usually."

Then, "I plan to check and change all fluids and filters, including diesel fuel as I think the last 2 or 3 gallons in a can might have been old that I put in the day before."

You also mentioned 4000 hours on engine.

Before you start disassembling your tractor, I'd suggest removing the injectors and take them to a diesel shop to have them checked for spray pattern and pop off pressure. Because many of the things I listed leans to an engine that was running fine, then by your admission some perhaps not good fuel was added, then 4000 hours on engine..... you just might have a rattle that may be a bad injector.

Get them cleaned and tested then reinstall and see what you have!

 

[MagKarl]

Have you driven it since this started? Mine sounded like you describe once...it was running reverse rotation. Not sure if that's possible in your case, but I'll throw that out there.

 

[mllkn6]

D2Cat, thanks for your reply, you maybe right, according to my better half the can of fuel I put into it which was only about 2 or 3 gallons was the one she used when burning some brush piles, it was maybe 6 months old sitting in that can, she had brought it up there to burn piles the next day and I thought it was the one I brought that I had bought a week before, need to mark the can better I guess. There is not telling what may have been in the can, but my funnel has a screen in it to catch debris. I'm leaning more in that direction that any other way now, but I will change all my fluids and filters first before I do anything else.
The front bucket wasn't working, didn't try the 3 point hitch as the bush hog was raised and didn't want it on the ground also, if it has failed. I might have knocked one loose just as I was finishing for the day the day before, I will check those also.
The RPM gauge was working the day before I know, I set my RPM's often to work and don't use the foot feed that much, I remember setting it around 2000 RPM's when pushing the limbs up into a pile for burning. That leaves my foot free to work the differential lock lever and my hands for the bucket controls. It might have snapped, will check it too.
Once I get everything changed I plan to restart it and check the injectors one at a time by opening the fuel line to each one separately and see it the sound changes or if the knocking stops, first I'll bleed all the ole fuel out of them. If there is still a problem I will remove them and take them to my local Kubota where I bought it from 40 years ago, they have been good to me over the years, as our families go way back together. Let them do what you said to them.
I appreciate all your help too, It's been a good little tractor and never given me a minutes worth of trouble, it's been a life saver to me for years now.

 

[mllkn6]

MagKarl, never heard on one running in reverse rotation, that's a new one on me. No, I haven't started it since this happened Saturday morning, spent the day trying to figure things out , No Sunday work and it rained Monday, looks like I can get back at it today, I hope.
Right now anything can be possible in my case, did you find out why or how it ran in reverse rotation? That just boggles my mind, just think about how that could happen, but like I said I'm no mechanic by any means, especially when it comes to a diesel engine.
I think I might have had a girlfriend once that went into reverse rotation, when she found out I was also seeing my wife now before we married. That was an easy fix, just traded her in on a newer and better model. Made a world of difference, the new one still runs smooth as silk after 45 years. LOL
Thank you, I appreciate you input, any and all advice is welcome on my end.

 

[rbargeron]

A friend had a well-worn little Ford 1710 4wd with a logging winch. It was winching in a log that got caught. The front of the tractor lifted up a few feet as the engine stalled. Then it went back down turning the engine backward (the winch ratchet wasn't set). It fired and ran in reverse a short while.

A warmed up diesel may fire if turned backward after stalling under load. There's likely some unburned fuel in the cylinders that would still light. There are several reasons not to let it run very long - the oil pump would not be making pressure.

 

[rbargeron]

Back on the subject of the L245, I'm wondering if it's contaminated fuel - any chance there is (was) water in that seldom-used fuel can? Remove and clean the filter bowl - and drain some fuel out of the tank - checking for crud.

Once you're sure the fuel getting to the injector pump is clean and water-free, start the engine and let it run at idle. If there is some remaining water in the fuel pipes, it will hopefully clear out in a few minutes.

As always, prompt cheerful refund if advice is bogus. Dick B

 

[mllkn6]

rbargeron, you hit the nail right smack on the head. I drained all my fluids, changed filters and cleaned out all the holding tanks I could. The diesel fuel was funky, water logged and just plain nasty, wonder it even run. Cleaned the fuel tank out, all the fuel lines to the injectors, then filled everything back up with new filters and new clean fuel. Bleed the fuel lines, reconnected to injectors and hit the starter switch, after a few seconds it fire off like new money, knock was gone and purred like a kitten for the next 5 hours as I put it right to work. RPM gauge and hydraulics worked like always also.
It was all in the fuel being bad and probably some in the tank needing a good cleaning also, let that tank dry completely out. I remover the fuel turn off valve under the tank after I drained it so I could clean out the inside with my small pressure washer, don't want to discuss how much fun that was either, it broke loose and not all went out the bottom hole. The inside of the tank looks like new now though.
Everyone I appreciate all your help, ideas, and advice, not sure I would have been so lucky without you guys, thank you. As soon as I find that fellow that put the wrong can of diesel in I'm going to fire his butt too.
Thank you all, again.

 

[rbargeron]

Glad it's percolating normally again. Were the dead hydraulics and hour meter just red herrings?

Don't fire the guy who fueled it - give him a couple beers instead to settle his nerves. Take care, Dick B

 

[mllkn6]

Thanks Dick B, I think the motor wasn't running good enough for them to work right is all I can figure out. After getting it running again, I thought about it some more. There was a different sound, but the skip was so fast and random that it sounded like it was knocking more than it was.
My wife gave the poor fellow the weekend off to think about his mistake, but with a stern warning, if it happens again, no beer for 6 month. That's would be hard to deal with let me tell you.
I appreciate the help fellows, take care and I will be back again, I know now that I found it. Great forum.

 

[rbargeron]

I hate to be slow to catch on, but there is a condition where the hydraulics and hour meter would not work. That condition is running backward. Did it run poorly more than the one time? Any chance there was some gasoline content in the odd fuel can?

If I really reach for it, I can imagine that with just the right percentage of more volatile fuel it might ignite early and send it backward. The fuel lift pump is a lever type so runs either way - it would keep supplying it at low pressure for a while. Dieseling backward on a mix of gas, water and fuel oil ?? Don't try this at home

 

[rbargeron]

Have you driven it since this started? Mine sounded like you describe once...it was running reverse rotation. Not sure if that's possible in your case, but I'll throw that out there.

Wow, you may have won the cake !

 

[Tooljunkie]

My buddy's wife was adding gas to the pickup truck.while it was running. It started running rough and smoking. Dragged it to shop pulled all the fuel out and filled with fresh and added a new filter. So, in someones haste,they put diesel in a red jug instead of a yellow one. Better to pour diesel into a gas engine then gas into a diesel.

Moral of the story-diesel goes in yellow jugs, not red ones. Fresh clean fuel is the ounce of prevention that saves a lot of grief.

I have one yellow jug, store it out of the weather and when i empty it i look in at the bottom for dirt/debris. As soon as it empty it goes into truck for refilling.

Glad it was not as serious as it could have been.

 

[shootem604]

A friend had a well-worn little Ford 1710 4wd with a logging winch. It was winching in a log that got caught. The front of the tractor lifted up a few feet as the engine stalled. Then it went back down turning the engine backward (the winch ratchet wasn't set). It fired and ran in reverse a short while.

A warmed up diesel may fire if turned backward after stalling under load. There's likely some unburned fuel in the cylinders that would still light. There are several reasons not to let it run very long - the oil pump would not be making pressure.

I remember reading this awhile ago and figured I'd resurrect this thread with my experience on Saturday. I had been running my L245 for all of 5 minutes, shifting some wood chips into the horse paddock. I was in high range and drove into the pile for my next bucketful. I hit the clutch a tad late, and she stalled, but fired up by herself a split second later. There was smoke coming from under the hood and a "knock" type sound, louder than the usual diesel engine noise, but not a knock like bearings going (I've heard that before). I shut her down right away with the decompression knob and full shut off and went into full panic mode. Checked all the fluids - oil level good, coolant level normal (not even warmed up yet), diesel has been in the tank about 2 weeks and is quality marked fuel.

After making sure everything was OK, I started her again and the noise and smoke were gone, no trouble at all. Would this possibly be a case of reverse rotation?