To fill or not to fill...also, spacers

GrizBota

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The Ltd Edition is a bit less expensive. I was initially looking btw MX5400, L4701 now replaced by L4802. So started chatting w folks in here and at dealers regarding L4802.

Grand L4760 was out of my price range w implements.

L4802 was my initial interest though I noticed smaller Grands had higher lift capacity.

A friend w a much larger property has an MX & loves it though he also has several other massive working farm tractors (400 cattle & 464 acres) that’s big for where I live … might be nothing other places.

The MX was then at the top of
my price range (higher lift cap than the L4802)

Eventually, I found the Grand series (by accident) looking at LA 805 & LA 1055 loaders.

Went down the Grand rabbit hole. Long story shortened - the L4060 w needed implements & cab comes in below my price pt. The Grand 3560 (28 PTO) even lower though I’ve got 12 acres I need to hit a few times w a bush hog & it gets 4.5 less at PTO than the L4060 (32.5 PTO) …

Initially, I wasn’t considering a cab bc I thought they’d add 9-11k to the cost. Turns out it’s actually closer to 5-7k to the cost on smaller tractors.

My buddy has done bush hogging for me
last couple years w a Kubota L3430 (27 PTO) and often struggles w some
of the hills when grass is tall. I’m on 18 acres w some hills, flat pasture.

Use cases for tractor: Invasive Russian Olive removal w grapple & FEL w Piranha blade on FEL, removal of several large fallen black walnut trees, plus limbs down after storms, grading 400 yrd gravel driveway, leveling several smaller 1 acre fields w some dips & ruts, snow removal, 4 - 6 1/2 acre to 3/4 acre food plots, building out larger garden for
my wife approx 1/3 acre … I’m sure there is other stuff.
Sounds like you’ve got the right machine picked out. The MX or L4702/4802 would have done the trick too. As you know, the Grand is, well grand. My L is a Grand L3830 HST with about 30 Hp to the PTO. If I had to do it over I’d have gone up a size or two to get more ponies at the PTO. The 5’ brush hog bogs down pretty bad in the wire grass in the swampy part of the pasture, or just early season long grass. So I end up cutting it high and hitting it again. You’ll be glad to have the additional PTO Hp.

So on that Limited Edition model, is a bit less like $2k or like $5k? If you recall.
 

Dusty71

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Sounds like you’ve got the right machine picked out. The MX or L4702/4802 would have done the trick too. As you know, the Grand is, well grand. My L is a Grand L3830 HST with about 30 Hp to the PTO. If I had to do it over I’d have gone up a size or two to get more ponies at the PTO. The 5’ brush hog bogs down pretty bad in the wire grass in the swampy part of the pasture, or just early season long grass. So I end up cutting it high and hitting it again. You’ll be glad to have the additional PTO Hp.

So on that Limited Edition model, is a bit less like $2k or like $5k? If you recall.
Griz,

My wife has been giving me grief about all the research I’ve been doing on this. She’s usually spot on but since this is all new to me … figure measure a few times & cut once.

I don’t recall exactly how much less the Limited Edition was … your guesstimate sounds close though. I was thinking you’re certainly in the neighborhood. I just don’t remember exactly.

I tell you this … the folks at Messicks (just under 2 hrs from me) are super helpful, knowledgeable & patient with their responses to my myriad newbie questions. This young guy Brady has just been outstanding.
 

GrizBota

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Griz,

My wife has been giving me grief about all the research I’ve been doing on this. She’s usually spot on but since this is all new to me … figure measure a few times & cut once.

I don’t recall exactly how much less the Limited Edition was … your guesstimate sounds close though. I was thinking you’re certainly in the neighborhood. I just don’t remember exactly.

I tell you this … the folks at Messicks (just under 2 hrs from me) are super helpful, knowledgeable & patient with their responses to my myriad newbie questions. This young guy Brady has just been outstanding.
Well a new tractor is a bit spendy. Good to research and get what you need the first time. I’ve seen a number of threads on here where folks under shoot and end up with another, larger, tractor in a couple years from buying the first.

My wife saw me looking at the Grand L, Grand L LE and MX glossies the other night. She didn’t say anything. She knows I’m too tight to upgrade to new. Or am I?? In reality I have what I need 95% of the time. But that last 5% takes 3 times as long. Maybe “just” add turbo on the L I have, add 10 or 15 PTO Hp and it’s all good.

I’m on the wrong side of the county for being able to go to Messick’s, but I’ve watched a bunch of Neil’s YouTube videos. Good information. I’ve even talked to the parts department at couple times. Didn’t start helpful, but we got there.

One thing about the cab, if you plan on working near trees (such as brush hogging around them) you’ll need to limb up your trees pretty high or stay further away. I’d like a cab too, but with all the work I do around trees, I think it’d limit my mobility and I’d be concerned with breaking some of that beautiful glass.
 

Dusty71

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Well a new tractor is a bit spendy. Good to research and get what you need the first time. I’ve seen a number of threads on here where folks under shoot and end up with another, larger, tractor in a couple years from buying the first.

My wife saw me looking at the Grand L, Grand L LE and MX glossies the other night. She didn’t say anything. She knows I’m too tight to upgrade to new. Or am I?? In reality I have what I need 95% of the time. But that last 5% takes 3 times as long. Maybe “just” add turbo on the L I have, add 10 or 15 PTO Hp and it’s all good.

I’m on the wrong side of the county for being able to go to Messick’s, but I’ve watched a bunch of Neil’s YouTube videos. Good information. I’ve even talked to the parts department at couple times. Didn’t start helpful, but we got there.

One thing about the cab, if you plan on working near trees (such as brush hogging around them) you’ll need to limb up your trees pretty high or stay further away. I’d like a cab too, but with all the work I do around trees, I think it’d limit my mobility and I’d be concerned with breaking some of that beautiful glass.
Griz, really enjoy your input & thoughts. That’s my one fear w the cab. One of our fields has some low-hanging limbs.

Plus side of the cab is I’ve gotten poison ivy twice this summer clearing russian olive w chainsaws and pushing through the vines … just brutal. I think the grapple / piranha tooth bar will let me get to the olives & avoid much of the other nastiness.

Another plus, I’m outside enough & kind of relish the idea of plowing snow from the comfort of a cab. I’ve always been out in the weather & as I’ve gotten older … I must be getting softer.

Here’s another consideration, if I go cab-less the Grand L4760 might be doable. Higher lift capacity, more PTO no cab though. I think I’d rather have lower cost w cab (L4060 @ 32.5 PTO) than higher cost without (L4760 @ 39.5 PTO)

We’ll see … I do appreciate your thoughts, feedback & observations bc I’m new to all this stuff. All of my neighbors & several friends that aren’t neighbors have them (or several depending on their property - horses, cattle - pure AG).

I’ve been pummeling them w questions, searching the internet, talking & meeting w dealers trying my best to learn all I can.

Anyhow, headed out to hit 4 - 6 acres of the place w the SCAG ZT depending on the weather. Have a great day.

If you have any other thoughts, suggestions or guidance - pls don’t be shy.
 
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GrizBota

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Griz, really enjoy your input & thoughts. That’s my one fear w the cab. One of our fields has some low-hanging limbs.

Plus side of the cab is I’ve gotten poison ivy twice this summer clearing russian olive w chainsaws and pushing through the vines … just brutal. I think the grapple / piranha tooth bar will let me get to the olives & avoid much of the other nastiness.

Another plus, I’m outside enough & kind of relish the idea of plowing snow from the comfort of a cab. I’ve always been out in the weather & as I’ve gotten older … I must be getting softer.

Here’s another consideration, if I go cab-less the Grand L4760 might be doable. Higher lift capacity, more PTO no cab though. I think I’d rather have lower cost w cab (L4060 @ 32.5 PTO) than higher cost without (L4760 @ 39.5 PTO)

We’ll see … I do appreciate your thoughts, feedback & observations bc I’m new to all this stuff. All of my neighbors & several friends that aren’t neighbors have them (or several depending on their property - horses, cattle - pure AG).

I’ve been pummeling them w questions, searching the internet, talking & meeting w dealers trying my best to learn all I can.

Anyhow, headed out to hit 4 - 6 acres of the place w the SCAG ZT depending on the weather. Have a great day.

If you have any other thoughts, suggestions or guidance - pls don’t be shy.
We’ve got poison oak on my side of the country. I understand your pain.

I admit it would be really neat plowing snow in a cab. I don’t plow snow (if you can call it that with a bucket) but once every few years. The wife did ok a snow plow. Kind of spendy to sit in the shed 999 days out of 1000. But maybe I’ll want the tax write off…

I’ve never had a cab tractor, so keep that in mind with my input on that aspect. I know getting on and off my open station L a bunch gets to be a hassle. Such as patching pot holes in the gravel driveway. Usually I ask DW to drive while I man the hand shovel.

One thing I do that I know having a cab would hinder for me is attaching 3 point implements. The Grand Ls do have the extendable eyes on the 3 point so that would help reduce the in/out of the cab to hook up. On my open station, I can stand next to the tractor and adjust the 3 point up or down a little, as well as bump the HST pedal to move the tractor an inch or two (before the safety nannys try to shut the engine down). The work around for a cab could be one of the 3 point quick hitches. A lot of folks on OTT seem to like them. I don’t have one myself.

Have a good time mowing. I like it in the spring. Right now it’s pretty dry, so I only mow along the driveway with the B and it’s MMM. We won’t be mowing much until it starts raining in October now. DW used a push mower for the yards around the house. They are pretty small.
 

cthomas

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On my BX2370 definitely noticed the difference mowing when I installed 2 inch spacers. I only installed spacers, rear tires loaded and loader installed(nothing on it) so I have a seat of the pants comparison. I have a long section of the driveway that I mow that is a 18 degree angle(slooowwwwlllllyyyyy filling it in to reduce the angle.
 
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DustyRusty

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On my BX22 I had 2" spacers held on with grade 8 bolts, and filled rear tires, with a weight box filled with 600# of lead hung off the 3-point hitch all winter long for almost 20 years while I plowed or blew snow with no problems whatsoever. I put about 800 hours on that machine, and it never even gave me a moment's notice of being a problem.
 
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Hyperborean

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Here's a video just posted by "Peek's Peak Hobby Homestead" that shows a before and after of how tippy his BX was on the same slope.

TL:DR: Without the spacers he was able to push the tractor's back wheels off the ground significantly and with ease when on the slope. Afterwards, he said it was requiring much more force from him pushing the tractor to barely move the wheels. He was using 1.5" spacers and very pleased with the results.
 

GreensvilleJay

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he also could have eliminated the need for the spacers by filling and regrading the land. Also cutting wet grass sideways on a slope is a 'silly' thing to do.....
but differn't stroke for differn't folks......
 
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Hyperborean

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he also could have eliminated the need for the spacers by filling and regrading the land. Also cutting wet grass sideways on a slope is a 'silly' thing to do.....
but differn't stroke for differn't folks......
He could also eliminate all the time he spends in traffic by flying his own helicopter... What's the time and financial cost of filling and grading land versus just putting on wheel spacers?

The point that spacers work and is an affordable way of adding safety and stability is proven by the video.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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re: What's the time and financial cost of filling and grading land versus just putting on wheel spacers?

ZERO

Fill is free, at least around here it is, even get prime top soil for free.... grading land is 'free' as well. Same load of poles if you move diet or cut grass.
 

fried1765

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re: What's the time and financial cost of filling and grading land versus just putting on wheel spacers?

ZERO

Fill is free, at least around here it is, even get prime top soil for free.... grading land is 'free' as well. Same load of poles if you move diet or cut grass.
Fill is free, prime top soil is free, grazing land is free, steel is free.......I'm planning a move to Ontario.
 

Hyperborean

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re: What's the time and financial cost of filling and grading land versus just putting on wheel spacers?

ZERO

Fill is free, at least around here it is, even get prime top soil for free.... grading land is 'free' as well. Same load of poles if you move diet or cut grass.
Grading land is only free if you don't value your time. You should drop him a line about how you're going to hook him up with some of that free fill you have.

Jay, you have a real hard time admitting that you were wrong in this thread. Now you're just doubling down and being absurd.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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as I said ,differnet strokes , differnet folks

instead of buying $$$$ spacers, my option cost nothing and makes the field a lot safer to cut. kinda important when when someone else cuts the field using a different mower.

to me cutting grass is a HUGE waste of time and money. I plowed over 1/2ac of lawn ( PO played golf it was that nice..), turned into a very viable veggie patch, made $1,000s every year.
I was told once to 'work smarter ,not harder'....

as I said ,'different strokes , different folks'
 

2650fan

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Both my tractors B2650, JD2305 have filled tires (rimguard) and spacers. 2” on the B and 1” on the 2305 limited by the mower deck….I live on very uneven ground and would not set up my tractors any other way. I do notice a big difference. I also have spacers on my Kawasaki mule all 4 wheels, so i think they are totally worth it
PS the B2650 is a TLB and backhoe will probably never come off machine
 

CharlieBells

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Both my tractors B2650, JD2305 have filled tires (rimguard) and spacers. 2” on the B and 1” on the 2305 limited by the mower deck….I live on very uneven ground and would not set up my tractors any other way. I do notice a big difference. I also have spacers on my Kawasaki mule all 4 wheels, so i think they are totally worth it
PS the B2650 is a TLB and backhoe will probably never come off machine
[/QUOTE

Griz was on the right track in his earlier posting where he calculated 6% added stability by adding 2" spacers (each wheel). It's actually quite a bit more than 6%.... without doing the math, I would guess its' probably double that minimum (12% or more).
In actuality the weight in calculating this moment isn't as simple as center mass (weight/force) of the machine being mid point of the axel. The Tire at the pivot point really is discarded when calculating the moment around itself, therefor moving the center of mass further out from the pivot point. In addition to that, the opposite tire, especially if it has been filled, carries a much heaver point load at the far extreme of the pivot arm... that tire weight would calc at the full arm length of 66-70 inches. So by changing the previously used weight of the tractor from solely "center of machine" to calculating tires independent doubles the moment from the far side (high point) and fully negates the "opposite' force at the pivot point.

The addition of tire spacers is not a myth or rumor, it's simple physics. Stand with your feet together and have someone give you a slight push to your side, spread your feet and do it again. The gain in stability changes for the better with even the slightest increments in spacing.

If you need stability from side tip concerns, fill your tires and add spacing to your rear tires (not front, downside greater than the very minimal upside)
 

CharlieBells

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I didn't write that very well... when calculating the far outside tire weight / moment it would calc. at the full 4" of added tire spacing, not 1/2 (or 2 inches). If the tires are filled this a substantial increase in the moment.
 

Henro

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I’m working w Messicks on a Grand L4060 HSTC at the moment. I live in Warrenton, VA & our property is hilly. I’ve had several “holy moly” moments on my 60 inch cut ZT.

I spoke w Bro-Tek this week & they recommended at least 3 inch spacers on both rear wheels. Front spacers not required though 1.5 to 2 were suggested.

Thoughts …
Front spacers are a bad idea. First, they will be of no help until the axle, which is on a center pivot, reaches the end of travel, and on a side slope this may be too late anyway...

BUT more importantly is the physical layout on the front. Since the front wheels turn, the spacers make a huge difference on the stresses felt by the system. The front axle (spindle, or whatever it is called) is very short compared to the rear axle. Spacing the wheel out further imparts a huge increase in stress on the axle and especially the bearings it rides in. Net result is adding spacers to the front wheels is a VERY BAD idea...

There was a recent thread on this very subject. If I can find it I will post the link in an edit.

 
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GrizBota

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I didn't write that very well... when calculating the far outside tire weight / moment it would calc. at the full 4" of added tire spacing, not 1/2 (or 2 inches). If the tires are filled this a substantial increase in the moment.
Well Charlie, as nice as it is to have someone check my math, if you’re going to correct me “without doing the math, I would guess its' probably double that minimum (12% or more)”, perhaps you could state your assumptions and show the your calcs.

I think you understand the general nature of the concept, but perhaps a review of statics is in order. It isn’t the lever arm which cancels out in the math, it is the mass or weigh at the center of gravity. Draw a free body diagram like you would back in school, you’ll get it. And then if there’s an error in my math we’ll both be able to see it.

Thanks, this is a topic that many like to conjecture on, but few seem to follow the physics. Now in my calcs, as I stated, my estimate is based on a static situation. Once momentum is involved, well you probably just rolled a tractor. I’ll let the ME or physics guys detail that for us. Perhaps that’s you?
 

CharlieBells

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Well Charlie, as nice as it is to have someone check my math, if you’re going to correct me “without doing the math, I would guess its' probably double that minimum (12% or more)”, perhaps you could state your assumptions and show the your calcs.

I think you understand the general nature of the concept, but perhaps a review of statics is in order. It isn’t the lever arm which cancels out in the math, it is the mass or weigh at the center of gravity. Draw a free body diagram like you would back in school, you’ll get it. And then if there’s an error in my math we’ll both be able to see it.

Thanks, this is a topic that many like to conjecture on, but few seem to follow the physics. Now in my calcs, as I stated, my estimate is based on a static situation. Once momentum is involved, well you probably just rolled a tractor. I’ll let the ME or physics guys detail that for us. Perhaps that’s you?

You sure are an angry little Elf Mr. Griz.... I'll state my assumptions and what I believe to be actuality. You can try to pick this apart if you want... What I will explain is static conditions.

First, never presume or assume... it gets you in trouble when trying to determine a real life condition. Why would you presume the center of mass is at the mid point of the tractor rear axle? Is it really? always? It's not, there are many things that determine the center of mass, it is not always at a mid point, it can be, but often is is not, or it can be changed. Changes in material density, distance from pivot point (yes.... that useless lever arm again) all potentially change the center of mass. By displacing the forces along the base (or axle) furthest from the tipping point, it will locate the center of mass in lateral axis further away from the midpoint of the axle. This can be calculated by the use of forces/moments and of course, that pesty little lever arm. Now... we just added weight (as to how it affects the overall moment) to the non pivot side of the tractor by separating that heavy weighted tire as it's own entity. Now, the center of mass just moved away from the tipping point.... now go back to your free body diagram... do your stick figures and notice how much more of an angle is now required to get the center of mass over the tipping point (which would be opposite/low side tire). When this tipping point is established, it has a zero lever arm 0x0=0, where all of the other forces against it, including the opposite tire at the extended 4", which calculates 70"x400lbs(?)... quite a force. See how that center of mass has moved? Therefore increasing the degree of slop required to reach the tipping point.

Let me ask you something.... when you look at your tractor from the side, where is the center of mass? Now, add the bucket and a scoop of gravel, did the center of mass change? (hint: it did) (the tractor is in a static position, just a different condition, just so we're on the same page). Now.... your a tractor guy and you don't like the calculations anymore of your presumed center of gravity vs. your now real life condition... it doesn't feel safe does it?.... what do you do?? holy smokes... we should add more weight to the opposite side of that pivot point (front tires) (the one you say doesn't matter).... maybe a ballast box, loaded tires, an implement? I don't know, maybe some farmer will figure out a way to offset that pivot point by adding a moment in the opposite direction of the loader?? That Damn Lever Arm agian! Bastard! Hum...interesting concept. it seems when considering tipping points in length direction of the tractor, with the addition of ballast we were able to adjust the moment by moving weight (counter weight) away from the pivot point .... frickn lever arm again, uff.... anyway, I'm sure you get the concept.

No... the free body diagram doesn't trump actual physics. That was the starter kit. I will give it to you.... without the consideration of reality, your math was correct. But, your math does not take into account the potential displacement of loads and their affect on the reactions they generate. These loads I say are displaced are still considered static. The more weight to the outside, the more stable the condition. If you were analyzing a solid brick.... I'd give you an A+

Ever wonder why the leaning tower of Pisa hasn't yet fallen over? it's because they continue adding weights, opposite the side it's leaning.... short lever arm ... dam it, again... so lots of weights. Anyway.... they continue to shift the center of mass by adding these weights. So, if and when they cannot counter balance the continued leaning the center of mass will drift past the pivot point.... this temporary fix won't last that much longer unfortunately.

We'll just agree to disagree on this one. you are right ... I needed to get my statistics "in order"... Have a Merry Christmas... honestly.