Spill Timing - B2150HSD, V1200

[LorenS]

Hello,
I have consulted my manuals and read as many threads on this site as I can find, but still I have a question about spill timing, or at the very least if something else besides shimming could be wrong with my tractor.

When I did the spill timing, I couldn't believe the timing shows as being at (or near) TDC. That's about 20 degrees retarded, right? Is it possible that there's a shim missing in the plunger, or the tappet roller is worn out, or the actual cam is shot? It just doesn't seem like needing to remove 8 shims is reasonable, and I have not yet checked to see if I even have that many shims. Is it possible the gears are out of phase? The injection timing seems terribly out of whack!

I have a full tank of fuel, I set the throttle to full, etc. It doesn't say in my engine manual, but am I supposed to bypass the lift pump?

Engine does not want to reach PTO speed (since I've owned it, about 3-1/2 years).
Injectors were rebuilt by quality shop.
Clean fuel filters, good steady flow of fuel to lift pump.

Probably shouldn't matter, but this spring I put a reman head on it with Kubota parts and gaskets, and did a re-ring and new rod bearings.

This tractor was ugly when I bought it, I thought that, being a little tractor in big tractor territory far from the city was why it was relatively cheap.

 

[lugbolt]

could be worn pump, worn plungers, worn camshaft and/or bearings. Normally it's kinda rare to have to shim them after doing a pump replacement but sometimes it happens. But that many shims? I just can't see it.

-OR- is there a possibility that your spill timing check was flawed somehow? Maybe try doing it once again after a break. I've been guilty of getting flustered with stuff like this in the past, and a nice break usually finds where I went wrong.

 

[mcfarmall]

Learning opportunity....what is spill timing?

 

[Pau7220]

Learning opportunity....what is spill timing?

Injection timing, also called spill timing, is the moment when diesel fuel enters the cylinder during the combustion phase. ... The timing of the pump determines when it will inject fuel into the cylinder as the piston reaches the BTDC point.

 

[whitetiger]

Learning opportunity....what is spill timing?

Spill Timing is the method of physically checking the beginning of injection, and it's used to check/set injection pump timing.

 

[LorenS]

is there a possibility that your spill timing check was flawed somehow?

Anything is possible, but unlike normal I wasn't flustered OR irate! Well, maybe a couple of times fighting getting the ratchet and socket around the fan shroud and oil cooler and on to the crank nut... But I checked it several times, over the course of a couple of hours and reread the procedure several times to make sure I wasn't missing something.

Is it possible some clown put the flywheel on 20 degrees or so out of position? Surely there's a keyway or master spline to prevent that, right?

I should have plenty of time to try this again tomorrow, so will give it another shot.

 

[eserv]

Anything is possible, but unlike normal I wasn't flustered OR irate! Well, maybe a couple of times fighting getting the ratchet and socket around the fan shroud and oil cooler and on to the crank nut... But I checked it several times, over the course of a couple of hours and reread the procedure several times to make sure I wasn't missing something.

Is it possible some clown put the flywheel on 20 degrees or so out of position? Surely there's a keyway or master spline to prevent that, right?

I should have plenty of time to try this again tomorrow, so will give it another shot.

No keyway or spline but the flywheel bolts are staggered so the flywheel can only go on in one position.

 

[LorenS]

My dad found this photo on Ebay of a V1200 injection camshaft. It's not for a -5B, it was another sub-model. But can anyone tell me if this is similar/identical to what would be on my V1200-5B engine? Is there an advance mechanism built into that black thing to the left of the gear? What does the brass device do? This just looks like it could be a centrifugal advance mechanism, and if it's bad could be a source of my problems.

[EDIT: the workshop manual shows that the governor has something goin on in there. I'm now wondering if when this tractor's engine was rebuilt before I bought it (aftermarket 0.020 rod bearings were in there) the timing gears may have been reinstalled out of time, just completely reassembled wrong, or something messed up in the governor itself due to wear, etc.]

A few weeks back the engine actually achieved something over rated PTO speed. Usually, sitting still with the clutch in or out it won't even hit 2k RPM. The higher engine speed only lasted a few minutes and fell off like a rock.

I have set the valves, checked fuel flow to injection pump (steady stream with engine off and plenty of fuel). I have NOT checked lift pump operation/output pressure but when I took the little cover off everything inside looked normal, no holes in diaphragm. Cylinder head is 'fresh'. New hone job, rings, and rod bearings. Tractor has never run correctly since I bought it. Definite signs it over heated in the past, and water pump was junk so was replaced last year. I don't remember the compression, but met the book specs after hone/ring job.

Hydraulic system has been drained and refilled twice in the last few years, new filter each time, and suction screen cleaned both times. No "funny noises".

Any ideas?

 

[LorenS]

I have come to the conclusion that I need to remove the timing case cover and make sure the gears are in time. Is the removal and reinstall of the timing cover as simple as it appears? I'm unimpressed by the Factory Service Manual and the Engine Service Manuals.

Are there any "gotchas" to be aware of?

 

[ruger1980]

The item on the end of the injection pump camshaft is the weight portion of the governor. It will not affect injection timing.

If someone has been inside the engine previously I would suspect that the timing gears may not be timed correctly but it does not look straight forward. You will have to disassemble the governor components and reassemble them correctly.

As far as the engine not coming up to full rated speed it could be timing or it could be an improperly adjusted or functioning governor

 

[LorenS]

@ruger1980 thanks for the information. Someone HAS been inside the engine. I didn't check main bearings, but the rod bearings were 0.020" aftermarket bearings. With all the other things I've found just flat-out wrong on this tractor it's a wonder it ran at all when I went to buy it.

The more I get to know this machine, the more I believe someone just slapped it back together to make it operable before selling it at auction to the owner before me.

Surely I can't make it any worse than it is, so when I get the timing cover gasket in my possession I will take a looking at timing marks.

 

[LorenS]

I have removed the timing cover and now have the valve camshaft, fuel camshaft, and (not that it matters) idler gear in time with one another.
BUT! There is no mark on the crank gear. I "assumed" the mark is supposed to concise with TDC, so that's where I set it. I used not only the flywheel mark but also checked with air flow out the glow plugs hole.

I have also removed the injection pump, and noticed that with all the marks on the gears lined up that the fuel cam is WAY past the injection event, but 340⁰ later it looks like it's about to start injecting.

Is this correct? Seems weird that the engine would blow such a strong stream of air out the glow plug hole if the engine wasn't on the compression stroke and injecting fuel. My next step will be to once again remove the valve cover to observe the valves - maybe it WILL blow that hard out of the glow plug hole at TDC after exhaust stroke.