Non-functioning hydraulics

[TheOldHokie]

Dan, as I'm following you all's advice, I'm getting you want me to get pressure readings from the FEL valve PB and remote valve PB. I'll get those pressures later this morning.

Thanks for the explanation about how the reverse flow can be happening. Yes, it's only with the "control screw/diverter/spool" in the horizontal position. I found that out yesterday when I collected 4 gallons from the FEL valve inlet port. I understand that for loader or remote operation the "control screw" needs to be in the vertical position. I only switched to horizontal to isolate the 3PH, and diagnose why it wasn't working. I have verified the hose configuration multiple times because I understand I could have made a simple mistake. I wouldn't ask for help on a forum, if I hadn't already done my diligence.

I've been using a cloth to filter those 4 gallons back into a container to bring the tank level back into the sight glass for testing today.

Yes, the big question is: Why is there flow with pressure, but the loader and 3PH don't move?

My issues started with water contaminated fluid, a bad FEL valve float detent, and oil leakage from the quick disconnects. ...but it was working. I already had parts and seals for the HUSCO valve, so I removed it, cleaned it, and disassembled it. When I got to the bare valve block, I sprayed degreaser into the bores, rotated it, dunked it into hot soapy water, then I sprayed brake cleaner into the bores. The brake cleaner came off the block clean, so I called it good. Honestly, I didn't inspect the bores after the brake cleaner. The spools didn't show any scratches, chips, and wear marks. I reassembled with light swipes of vaseline, and everything went back together normally.

I'm going to finish filtering the oil for reuse, and get those PB pressures. Thanks!

No pressure test. Next test would be:

1. Reconnect inlet hose to loader valve
2. Make sure selector is vertical and leave it there
3. Disconnect loader power beyomd hosr from rear rempte and place the end in the hydraulic filler
4. Start tractpor and observe flow from power beyond.hose. Should be constant.
5. Try to raise loader

Dan

 

[Dashman]

Ok, I finally got enough fluid filtered through a cloth to fill the level to the sight glass.

I routed a hose from the loader valve PB to a container, and started the tractor. There was a little bit of flow. Then when I moved the loader valve control stick down to raise the loader, the flow would nearly stop, but the loader would not raise. ...and of course the "control screw" is vertical.

When I install the pressure gauge on the loader valve PB hose, I get about 25 psi. It raises with RPM, but not much.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Ok, I finally got enough fluid filtered through a cloth to fill the level to the sight glass.

I routed a hose from the loader valve PB to a container, and started the tractor. There was a little bit of flow. Then when I moved the loader valve control stick down to raise the loader, the flow would nearly stop, but the loader would not raise. ...and of course the "control screw" is vertical.

When I install the pressure gauge on the loader valve PB hose, I get about 25 psi. It raises with RPM, but not much.

Something very wrong here. The flow out the PB should be identical to the flow coming into the inlet. You said the inlet flow would quickly fill a bucket.

Dan

 

[Dashman]

I said, "I held the outlet hose into a bucket, and started the tractor. It made a pretty strong stream". ...and it also maxed out the pressure gauge briefly.

The flow out the FEL valve PB hose was less than that, and it stops when I move the control stick down. ...except the loader does not raise. ...does not move in any direction.

I can't imagine anything being wrong with the loader spools. I can't imagine anything wrong with the new quick disconnects I installed. Not that they have anything to do with power beyond pressure.

Yes, "something very wrong here". What's next?

 

[TheOldHokie]

I said, "I held the outlet hose into a bucket, and started the tractor. It made a pretty strong stream". ...and it also maxed out the pressure gauge briefly.

The flow out the FEL valve PB hose was less than that, and it stops when I move the control stick down. ...except the loader does not raise. ...does not move in any direction.

I can't imagine anything being wrong with the loader spools. I can't imagine anything wrong with the new quick disconnects I installed. Not that they have anything to do with power beyond pressure.

Yes, "something very wrong here". What's next?

I said, "I held the outlet hose into a bucket, and started the tractor. It made a pretty strong stream". ...and it also maxed out the pressure gauge briefly.

I dont understand that. Where is the gauge in this test?

If you have a strong stream coming into the valve you must have the same stream coming out. That is the definition of an "open center" valve.

Dan

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

For clarification, let's back up one step.

Take the Power line off the loader valve and put that into a bucket (holding it in), what do you get when you start it.
If it's a lot and strong flow, then I have a feeling the loader valve "rebuild" is the issue here, or you have the tank and PNB lines swapped.

 

[TheOldHokie]

For clarification, let's back up one step.

Take the Power line off the loader valve and put that into a bucket (holding it in), what do you get when you start it.
If it's a lot and strong flow, then I have a feeling the loader valve "rebuild" is the issue here, or you have the tank and PNB lines swapped.

I have a feeling the P and T hoses are reversed.

Dan

 

[Dashman]

Eiiigh!!! I already determined that the outlet hose from the hydraulic block from the pump had a "good stream". I also installed the gauge at the end of this hose. It's in one of my photos, where I removed the hose from the inlet to the FEL valve. That test maxed out the pressure gauge, and did the "deadhead" thing with the starter (no engine run). I did it a subsequent time, when an engine run for 3 seconds, same thing, it maxed out the pressure gauge. Sound familiar?

You guys understand that I've already been at this for a few days. I haven't been able to work on it consecutively. I need to move forward.

I agree, the fishiness is in the FEL valve. The PB port should have the same pressure. I'll remove it, disassemble it, and inspect it.

Except, why wouldn't the 3 point valve work when the "control screw/diverter" was in the horizontal position?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Eiiigh!!! I already determined that the outlet hose from the hydraulic block from the pump had a "good stream". I also installed the gauge at the end of this hose. It's in one of my photos, where I removed the hose from the inlet to the FEL valve. That test maxed out the pressure gauge, and did the "deadhead" thing with the starter (no engine run). I did it a subsequent time, when an engine run for 3 seconds, same thing, it maxed out the pressure gauge. Sound familiar?

You guys understand that I've already been at this for a few days. I haven't been able to work on it consecutively. I need to move forward.

I agree, the fishiness is in the FEL valve. The PB port should have the same pressure. I'll remove it, disassemble it, and inspect it.

Except, why wouldn't the 3 point valve work when the "control screw/diverter" was in the horizontal position?

I jumped in here because you have not found the problem aftrr all your experimentation. I am trying to approach this methodically. If both spools are centered I cant envision anyway the rebuild is blocking the neutral (PB) circuit in the valve. Reversing P and T connections will. I will bow out now.

Dan

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I jumped in here because you have not found the problem aftrr all your experimentation. I am trying to approach this methodically. If both spools are centered I cant envision anyway the rebuild is blocking the neutral (PB) circuit in the valve. Reversing P and T connections will. I will bow out now.

Dan

What about check valves and PB sleeve?

 

[TheOldHokie]

What about check valves and PB sleeve?

A missing PB sleeve will not block center flow or loader operation.

If P and T are reversed the neutral circuit is blocked and the load checks will block loader operation.

Dan

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Eiiigh!!! I already determined that the outlet hose from the hydraulic block from the pump had a "good stream". I also installed the gauge at the end of this hose. It's in one of my photos, where I removed the hose from the inlet to the FEL valve. That test maxed out the pressure gauge, and did the "deadhead" thing with the starter (no engine run). I did it a subsequent time, when an engine run for 3 seconds, same thing, it maxed out the pressure gauge. Sound familiar?

You guys understand that I've already been at this for a few days. I haven't been able to work on it consecutively. I need to move forward.

I agree, the fishiness is in the FEL valve. The PB port should have the same pressure. I'll remove it, disassemble it, and inspect it.

Except, why wouldn't the 3 point valve work when the "control screw/diverter" was in the horizontal position?

Have you checked the pressure relief valve completely?

I'm wondering if the key to this issue is somehow related to you using 2 FEL Valves????

 

[TheOldHokie]

Have you checked the pressure relief valve completely?

I'm wondering if the key to this issue is somehow related to you using 2 FEL Valves????

By design the only thing connected in the last test was the loader valve.

Dan

 

[Dashman]

First of all thank you to Russell, Dan, and Wolfman.

Second, I gave you guys all the details of how I got into this issue. When I said, I installed a remote valve a few years ago, that should be enough to suggest that I know how the hoses go. Could a person inadvertently cross a pair of hoses? ...especially the inlet and outlet hoses to the FEL valve because they are just about the same length? Absolutely. Except I had quadruple checked the hoses. Double checked before even posting here. Then I posted photos with color coding of how the hoses were connected.

Third, the pressure test of the outlet port was invaluable. At the minimum, it let's me know if my pressure relief valve is set to high or too low. The subsequent pressure test at the FEL valve PB was also invaluable because it said something was going on within the FEL valve. I had stated that I had rebuilt the FEL valve. It's not that difficult of a task, but there can be sequence issues. Such as what should be installed ahead of something else.

Last night, I had to review the HUSCO 9210 cut away view to better see how the fluid moves through the valve and to power beyond. The first thing I noticed is that the shut off plug (specific to my model, or pressure relief valve on others) could route fluid to the outlet port. Then I started weighing the likelihood that a piece of debris clogged up the passages leading to the PB port. Probably not, so no need to disassemble the FEL valve.

Lastly, it clicked. A few weeks back, I needed a larger wrench from my garage to tighten the Shut Off Plug, and I chose to wait for the following day to do it. BAM!!! The human condition reared its ugly head. I had forgotten to tighten the Shut Off Plug. This morning I tightened that plug, started the tractor, and the 3PH raised. The loader will too, I just need to secure to the pedestal.

Needless to say, I feel like twice the idiot, once for forgetting, and again for leading you all on a wild goose chase. However, I don't think I was going to remember. It took testing the outlet and power beyond pressures to focus in on the work I did to the FEL valve. ...and you all kept me from buying a pump. ...and my pump survived the water contamination fiasco. So, thank you guys!

 

[TheOldHokie]

First of all thank you to Russell, Dan, and Wolfman.

Second, I gave you guys all the details of how I got into this issue. When I said, I installed a remote valve a few years ago, that should be enough to suggest that I know how the hoses go. Could a person inadvertently cross a pair of hoses? ...especially the inlet and outlet hoses to the FEL valve because they are just about the same length? Absolutely. Except I had quadruple checked the hoses. Double checked before even posting here. Then I posted photos with color coding of how the hoses were connected.

Third, the pressure test of the outlet port was invaluable. At the minimum, it let's me know if my pressure relief valve is set to high or too low. The subsequent pressure test at the FEL valve PB was also invaluable because it said something was going on within the FEL valve. I had stated that I had rebuilt the FEL valve. It's not that difficult of a task, but there can be sequence issues. Such as what should be installed ahead of something else.

Last night, I had to review the HUSCO 9210 cut away view to better see how the fluid moves through the valve and to power beyond. The first thing I noticed is that the shut off plug (specific to my model, or pressure relief valve on others) could route fluid to the outlet port. Then I started weighing the likelihood that a piece of debris clogged up the passages leading to the PB port. Probably not, so no need to disassemble the FEL valve.

Lastly, it clicked. A few weeks back, I needed a larger wrench from my garage to tighten the Shut Off Plug, and I chose to wait for the following day to do it. BAM!!! The human condition reared its ugly head. I had forgotten to tighten the Shut Off Plug. This morning I tightened that plug, started the tractor, and the 3PH raised. The loader will too, I just need to secure to the pedestal.

Needless to say, I feel like twice the idiot, once for forgetting, and again for leading you all on a wild goose chase. However, I don't think I was going to remember. It took testing the outlet and power beyond pressures to focus in on the work I did to the FEL valve. ...and you all kept me from buying a pump. ...and my pump survived the water contamination fiasco. So, thank you guys!

Great news and interesting that the undertightend blanking plug was dumping inlet flow to tank. I will file that tidbit away for future reference.

Orderly step by .step testing is the fastest way to find a failure point.

BTW - if the shims you added to the PRV are stiĺl in place you might want to remove them and recheck outlet pressure.

Dan

 

[Russell King]

@Dashman I am glad you recalled that untightened plug! And don’t get too worried that we kept going to the hose connection that you were stating was correct. We believe that you KNOW it is correct, but you can read 10s to 100s of resolutions that ended up “oh the hoses were crossed and that fixed the issue” where the issue was the same as yours. I think this is the first resolution of the issue with a loose blanking plug being the root cause!

Now you and we will be able to suggest that solution to people who have a similar issue as something to easily check. Now, for me, the problem will be to remember to suggest that check!

 

[Dashman]

I finally had some time today to remove those washers I placed in the Pressure Relief Valve. I had to purchase a crowsfoot set with a 7/8" to remove the inlet hose without having to remove the FEL valve from the pedestal. Then I tested the pressure and found it to be 2,200 psi. So, I placed (1) washer and the pressure was 2,650 psi. I measured the washer to be 0.042". I did a liner interpolation to determine the thickness of the washer to get 2,490 psi (0.042"/ 450 psi * 290 psi = 0.027"). Basically, the difference of what it is, and the difference of what it needs to be. So, I found one of the washers to be 0.038", and proceeded to file it down to 0.027". When I retested the pressure, the needle was reading between the 2,450 and 2,500 ticks, closer to the 2,500 tick. So glad to be done with this project.