L3560 3rd function concerns

[Ol'MacDonald]

I have an L3560 ( about 150 hrs) with the Kubota/Landpride 3rd function kit installed by the dealer. When operating the grapple, I notice what I consider to be unusual operation of the hydraulics.
I depress the switch to fully open the grapple and the pump loads up and dumps over the relief. Releasing the button does not stop the loading of the pump. I need to move the joystick, in any direction, to release the load on the pump. The same situation occurs when the grapple is closed fully. Has anyone come across this type of issue?

I have checked the 3rd function diverter valve but found nothing out of the ordinary: no scoring, no debris, solenoids are working great, spool is moving freely.

The valve and switch appears to work without issue when the grapple cylinders are not at extreme positions. I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[Dave_eng]

A dealer install with 150 hours and problems............ time to go back to the dealer. If you start disassembling parts, it will be your problem when it should be the dealers

Not the first 3rd function to be improperly installed.

What is your 3 pt hitch doing when this is happening?

Dave

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

Hi Dave_eng.
Thanks for the reply.
3PH is acting normally in the raised position. I'm clearing trees so there is a chipper on the back and I'm using the grapple to move the logs. I do not have much opportunity to operate the grapple and the 3PH at the same time. I haven't noticed any issues with the hitch operation.

 

[Dave_eng]

Please provide model numbers of loader and hoe.

I see this caution: the L3560 model must be equipped with LA805 loader to install BH92 backhoe.

Model number of the 3rd function kit

Dave

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

Please provide model numbers of loader and hoe.

I see this caution: the L3560 model must be equipped with LA805 loader to install BH92 backhoe.

Model number of the 3rd function kit

Dave

Hi Dave

The 3RD function valve is an L2265 for the LA805 loader and the BH92 backhoe. The loader and backhoe were installed at time of purchase.

Nick

 

[Dave_eng]

Nick
I have been reading on the Land Pride web site and also Messicks Kubota parts.

At this time I am not well so must limit how much time I can spend digging right now..

The L2665 number you provided does not appear when I search on Landpride's site nor does it appear on Messicks.

The list of 3rd function valves and matching tractors and loaders does not show your L3560 and LA805.

The Land Pride list of 3rd function part numbers and Installation kits as shown in the attached link does not show any numbers like L2265 so if you have any other documents please compare to the ones in this list:

Landpride 3rd

This is the list of available 3rd function documents on Land Pride's site where I cannot find your equipment.

Looking at the installation documents for a L series tractor I came across this caution regarding backhoes and 3rd function valves.

A lot to say I would make this a dealer problem. It happens that web sites are not up to date with all available products and tractor matches and I am not able to see material the dealer has access to.

It also happens that 3rd function kits are installed by tech's who don't take the time to thoroughly read the installation literature and do yours the same way as they did the last one on a different model tractor.

Whatever happens please update us as there are lessons to be learned.

Dave.

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

Nick
I have been reading on the Land Pride web site and also Messicks Kubota parts.

At this time I am not well so must limit how much time I can spend digging right now..

The L2665 number you provided does not appear when I search on Landpride's site nor does it appear on Messicks.

The list of 3rd function valves and matching tractors and loaders does not show your L3560 and LA805.

The Land Pride list of 3rd function part numbers and Installation kits as shown in the attached link does not show any numbers like L2265 so if you have any other documents please compare to the ones in this list:

Landpride 3rd

This is the list of available 3rd function documents on Land Pride's site where I cannot find your equipment.

View attachment 64768

Looking at the installation documents for a L series tractor I came across this caution regarding backhoes and 3rd function valves.

View attachment 64769

A lot to say I would make this a dealer problem. It happens that web sites are not up to date with all available products and tractor matches and I am not able to see material the dealer has access to.

It also happens that 3rd function kits are installed by tech's who don't take the time to thoroughly read the installation literature and do yours the same way as they did the last one on a different model tractor.

Whatever happens please update us as there are lessons to be learned.

Dave.

Hi Dave,

You have put a lot of time on this, THANK YOU! What a great forum.

I wonder, is there is a difference between the Landpride 3rd function and the Kubota 3rd function valve kits? I understand that there are two separate product lines of 3rd function diverter kits, Landpride and Kubota, available for the tractors. In this case the valve is presented as a Kubota valve, see attached snippet from the invoice.

I had a look at the valves for the LA805 loader and the L2265 is listed under the C05101 option. I'll have a look at the applications and installation.

Nick

 

[PortTackFarm]

I am getting an L3560 LE with the LA805 FEL with 3rd function kit installed, but no BH. My dealer is currently waiting on the 3rd function kit from Kubota before he can install it and deliver the tractor to me. Just an FYI, my invoice for the 3rd function kit and rear remotes lists the KUB L2265 3RD FUNCT as the third function kit, so I am fairly confident you've got the correct 3rd function kit installed. Can't add much beyond that. I'll be watching this thread to see how you get this resolved. My concern is I don't plan to get the grapple immediately so it could be a year or more before I know if my 3rd function kit will work as it's supposed to or not. Hope you get everything resolved.

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

I am getting an L3560 LE with the LA805 FEL with 3rd function kit installed, but no BH. My dealer is currently waiting on the 3rd function kit from Kubota before he can install it and deliver the tractor to me. Just an FYI, my invoice for the 3rd function kit and rear remotes lists the KUB L2265 3RD FUNCT as the third function kit, so I am fairly confident you've got the correct 3rd function kit installed. Can't add much beyond that. I'll be watching this thread to see how you get this resolved. My concern is I don't plan to get the grapple immediately so it could be a year or more before I know if my 3rd function kit will work as it's supposed to or not. Hope you get everything resolved.

It is easy to test without the grapple. Everything about the hydraulics is rated for beyond operating pressure. The issue seems to occur when the cylinder extends or retracts fully and causes the pressure to raise to relief pressure, ie loading the pump in a condition of zero flow to the grapple cylinders. This canbe duplicated by activating the 3rd function and toggling the operators' switch to open or close the imaginary implement. The quick connects will handle the pressure so no worries there. You would hear the pump load as it dumps over the relief if a similar issue exists. Moving the loader control for any lift or curl function seems to take it out of the relief situation immediately. Keeping it in the relief situation will overheat the hydraulics after a period of time so be aware.

The tractor is really a wonderful machine. Other than this concern, the common heater-hose-pinched-under-the-cab problem was the only issue in the year I have owned the tractor (the heater will literally roast you out of the cab when it is working.) I knew there was an issue when it hit -10 F for the first time. It was necessary to transport back to the dealer for the fix so it is nice to check before it leaves the lot.

The 805 loader with pallet forks is quite capable. Visibility of the fork ends is challenging at times but that is the tradeoff of a tractor vs a forklift. I ballasted the rear tires with Rim Guard so the extra 1600 lb makes using the loader a breeze without needing a ballast box for my applications near full capacity. The SSQA on the loader is a wonderful thing.

I'll keep looking at this 3rd function issue by verifying the piping is correct. I'll update the post as I go along but it would be great to have any suggestions.

Nick

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

The issue with the third function was resolved. At the time of the original post, the tractor was at the dealer for investigation and repairs. They were persistent and looked at every aspect of the system (pressure, flow, connections, etc.) to make sure they were missing nothing. Kubota service engineers were called into the diagnosis process as this was the first case they had encountered with this issue.

Multiple 3rd function valves were installed to determine if the issue was in the component or if it was systemic. The valve change-out plus a visual inspection of the original valve revealed no issues so this confirmed that it was systemic.

From what I was told, it appears that the issue arose from back pressure generated on the tank line when the grapple opened or closed fully, causing the cylinder to deadhead and dump all flow through the system relief. Apparently, the routing of the hoses lended to this pressure accumulation that hindered the ability of the 3rd function valve to center. The dealer re-routed the hoses and connections to to alleviate the back pressure. This was no small feat. Compliments to the Service Department and Techs!

I love my tractor and I have a great deal of respect for the professionals at my dealer and Kubota engineering. Nice work! The third function work so well now.

 

[TheOldHokie]

The issue with the third function was resolved. At the time of the original post, the tractor was at the dealer for investigation and repairs. They were persistent and looked at every aspect of the system (pressure, flow, connections, etc.) to make sure they were missing nothing. Kubota service engineers were called into the diagnosis process as this was the first case they had encountered with this issue.

Multiple 3rd function valves were installed to determine if the issue was in the component or if it was systemic. The valve change-out plus a visual inspection of the original valve revealed no issues so this confirmed that it was systemic.

From what I was told, it appears that the issue arose from back pressure generated on the tank line when the grapple opened or closed fully, causing the cylinder to deadhead and dump all flow through the system relief. Apparently, the routing of the hoses lended to this pressure accumulation that hindered the ability of the 3rd function valve to center. The dealer re-routed the hoses and connections to to alleviate the back pressure. This was no small feat. Compliments to the Service Department and Techs!

I love my tractor and I have a great deal of respect for the professionals at my dealer and Kubota engineering. Nice work! The third function work so well now.
ntly, the routing of the hoses lended to this pressure accumulation that hindered the ability of the 3rd function valve to center. The dealer re-routed the hoses and connections to to alleviate the back pressure. This was no small feat. Compliments to the Service Department and Techs!

I love my tractor and I have a great deal of respect for the professionals at my dealer and Kubota engineering. Nice work! The third function work so well now.

Are you talking about the relief built into the third function valve?

Dan

 

[PortTackFarm]

Glad you got your issue resolved. Update on my 3rd Function Kit - still not delivered to the dealer. Kubota told him it would be another 3 months before they could get it to him. We couldn't wait another 3 months for our tractor and implements so I had the dealer deliver the our tractor without it last week and refund me the labor fee for installing the 3rd Function Kit. He'll get me the kit when it comes in at which time I'll need to decide if I want to tackle the installation myself or find a local dealer to do it for me. The dealer I purchased our tractor from is 3 hours away and charged $600 to deliver so there's no way he's coming back to pick it up to do the install and returning it. I've seen some YouTube video's on the installation and I think with patience and a good instruction manual I might be able to do it. If not, I'll borrow a friend's trailer and take it to a dealer.

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

From what I understand, it is the main relief valve. I am not aware of a relief in the third function block although, to be honest, I've never disassembled one. I understand that 3rd function is a pretty simple setup with a spring centered, solenoid actuated spool that is displaced by pilot pressure. I did not do the troubleshooting but I suspect the pilot pressure was not bleeding off completely because of the back pressure on the tank line, preventing the spool from centering.

 

[TheOldHokie]

From what I understand, it is the main relief valve. I am not aware of a relief in the third function block although, to be honest, I've never disassembled one. I understand that 3rd function is a pretty simple setup with a spring centered, solenoid actuated spool that is displaced by pilot pressure. I did not do the troubleshooting but I suspect the pilot pressure was not bleeding off completely because of the back pressure on the tank line, preventing the spool from centering.

I looked at the parts diagram for your kit and there is no relief in the 3rd function subplate so presumably it's a relief valve upstream of the solenoid valve. What I am struggling to understand is how that relief circuit back pressures the tank port on the solenoid valve.

Since the tank port is actually being used as a power beyond for the loader valve I can envision the back pressure coming from a loader cylinder preventing the 3rd function from dropping out until the loader spool returns to neutral. But at that point the PB (aka tank) back pressure should drop to near zero allowing the 3rd function pilot to shift that spool back to neutral as well.

Dan

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

Pilot pressure is ported to the end off the spool to assist the displacement, controlled by the solenoid. The differential pressure displaces the spool against the spring. If the fluid at the end of the spool cannot vent to tank, due to back pressure, the spool remains off center.

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

I looked at the parts diagram for your kit and there is no relief in the 3rd function subplate so presumably it's a relief valve upstream of the solenoid valve. What I am struggling to understand is how that relief circuit back pressures the tank port on the solenoid valve.

Since the tank port is actually being used as a power beyond for the loader valve I can envision the back pressure coming from a loader cylinder preventing the 3rd function from dropping out until the loader spool returns to neutral. But at that point the PB (aka tank) back pressure should drop to near zero allowing the 3rd function pilot to shift that spool back to neutral as well.

Dan

I recall that the 3rd function is off the curl and dump function circuit of the loader. The issues also occurred when there was little or no load on this part of the circuit due to empty grapple. This explains why the grapple be curled back while closing the jaw.

Full flow of the hydraulic pump is going back through the loader valve blocks so back pressure developing here and in the hoses would have a negative affect on valve operation. This condition would be exacerbated at higher rpm's

 

[TheOldHokie]

I recall that the 3rd function is off the curl and dump function circuit of the loader. The issues also occurred when there was little or no load on this part of the circuit due to empty grapple. This explains why the grapple be curled back while closing the jaw.

Full flow of the hydraulic pump is going back through the loader valve blocks so back pressure developing here and in the hoses would have a negative affect on valve operation. This condition would be exacerbated at higher rpm's

I understand how the 3rd function valve operates - see the attached image of a typical solenoid operated valve. I am just trying to understand the original plumbing and what was changed to make the problem go away.

How can the 3rd function be off the curl and dump circuit of the loader valve? The third function is an independent valve located either before or after the loader valve. One feeds the other via the power beyond loop. The loader valve has a separate tank and power beyond port while the 3rd function uses the tank port as a power beyond feed.

If the 3rd function is before the loader valve all loader valve inlet pressures are also present as back pressure at the tank port on the 3rd function valve. That could potentially block operation of the pilot and/or primary spool in the solenoid valve. Replumbing the 3rd function to be after the loader valve would eliminate all of that loader interaction and the only back pressure on the tank port would be from a down stream component in the power beyond loop - e.g. the backhoe valve, the three point valve, or the tank return internal to the 3pt. Is that what they did?

 

[Ol'MacDonald]

I understand how the 3rd function valve operates - see the attached image of a typical solenoid operated valve. I am just trying to understand the original plumbing and what was changed to make the problem go away.

How can the 3rd function be off the curl and dump circuit of the loader valve? The third function is an independent valve located either before or after the loader valve. One feeds the other via the power beyond loop. The loader valve has a separate tank and power beyond port while the 3rd function uses the tank port as a power beyond feed.

If the 3rd function is before the loader valve all loader valve inlet pressures are also present as back pressure at the tank port on the 3rd function valve. That could potentially block operation of the pilot and/or primary spool in the solenoid valve. Replumbing the 3rd function to be after the loader valve would eliminate all of that loader interaction and the only back pressure on the tank port would be from a down stream component in the power beyond loop - e.g. the backhoe valve, the three point valve, or the tank return internal to the 3pt. Is that what they did?

Thank you TheOldHokie.

In simple terms, the extra bends, turns, and twists were removed from the circuits. The additional flow losses would translate to pressure on the tank side.

There are two spools for the loader controls: One spool for the loader lift arms and the second for the curl function. I understand the 3rd function to be tied to the flow on the curl function. Since the grapple function will dominate and block the curl function, the 3rd function valve would be located in the circuit before the curl spool.

There were no errors in the circuits, as fitted. The corrections were to reroute hoses so the friction losses were reduced from unnecessary bends. I can only assume that the hoses were originally installed wherever they would fit and not to the OEM routing schedule when the loader and 3rd function were installed. It is a cab tractor so there is a snake-pit of hoses under the cab and chassis. Additionally there are Pioneer quick-connects on every hose for the loader. I've run into similar issues with load sensing circuits.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thank you TheOldHokie.

In simple terms, the extra bends, turns, and twists were removed from the circuits. The additional flow losses would translate to pressure on the tank side.

Simple enough and assuming you are talking about the power beyond loop coming off the tank port on the 3rd function makes perfect sense to me.

There are two spools for the loader controls: One spool for the loader lift arms and the second for the curl function. I understand the 3rd function to be tied to the flow on the curl function. Since the grapple function will dominate and block the curl function, the 3rd function valve would be located in the circuit before the curl spool.

Since both loader spools share a common supply that puts it ahead of both spools. But the 3rd function valve cannot block as long as teh grapple cylinder is moving since all waste oil from the 3rd function cylinder(s) goes out the tank port and becomes a pressurized supply for both loader spools. It will only block when the grapple cylinder is stalled and should unblock when the grapple button is released. Here be the rub it seems.

There were no errors in the circuits, as fitted. The corrections were to reroute hoses so the friction losses were reduced from unnecessary bends. I can only assume that the hoses were originally installed wherever they would fit and not to the OEM routing schedule when the loader and 3rd function were installed. It is a cab tractor so there is a snake-pit of hoses under the cab and chassis. Additionally there are Pioneer quick-connects on every hose for the loader. I've run into similar issues with load sensing circuits.

Again makes perfect sense and seems to be the crux of the problem..

Dan

 

[kubotafreak]

Can you supply pictures of the hose routing from behind the rockshaft/threepoint, and down by the right subframe/loader bracket. I have this same series of tractor. If this is the oem kubota kit, not the landpride kit, then the problem usually lies with routing. The tech more than likely routed hoses wrong on the machine. The BH is the issue on the install, as most dealers dont know how to properly route both kits on the same machine (l40/l60).

Without pictures.... the pb of the third function powers the backhoe inlet. The backhoe outlet then completes the pb circuit back to the inlet of the three point. The tank port stays the same to the tank port above the three point valve block. Trust me you will blow out your backhoe seals or the third function seals if this is wrong. Sounds to me like they put the backhoe first in the PB supply from the loader valve, which is wrong.
The kubota third function kit has its own relief on the side of the milled block. The land pride kits usually dont.