Hydraulic/Electric toplink for B2650 (w/o rear remotes)?

[BetterThanAShovel]

So, this thing is built with the idea in mind that the 4 connectors on the top are attached to hoses that then have the quick disconnects on the other end of the hose? So then I can find a place to mount those QDs on a plate facing towards the back, or I could potentially leave them as hoses and just make sure they're out of the way when connected?

I'm about to work up the full cost of all this to make sure I've got a handle on what's involved. Seems like the valve itself, hoses and connectors, 4 quick disconnect pairs so far.

 

[TheOldHokie]

So, this thing is built with the idea in mind that the 4 connectors on the top are attached to hoses that then have the quick disconnects on the other end of the hose? So then I can find a place to mount those QDs on a plate facing towards the back, or I could potentially leave them as hoses and just make sure they're out of the way when connected?

I'm about to work up the full cost of all this to make sure I've got a handle on what's involved. Seems like the valve itself, hoses and connectors, 4 quick disconnect pairs so far.

If you go thar route the price will go up and you start wrestling the hose octopus.

I tell you what - you work up your price and I will work up mine and we can compare notes. Dont forget to account for your tank return.

Dan

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

If you go thar route the price will go up and you start wrestling the hose octopus.

I tell you what - you work up your price and I will work up mine and we can compare notes. Dont forget to account for your tank return.

Dan

If I go which route, the 4 loose hoses? I have to have hoses to fittings off of that valve either way, right? You're just saying I should mount the QDs in a metal panel permanently instead, right?

I'm all for keeping the price down, but I'm certain I'm still not seeing how this all fits together.

The tank return is going to plug into the place where the backhoe return plugs in, right? I don't have to invent any new connections to existing hydraulic plumbing, right?

I'm going to have to draw this out on paper to see if I'm understanding it.

EDIT: And thanks SO MUCH for helping me understand this.

 

[TheOldHokie]

If I go which route, the 4 loose hoses? I have to have hoses to fittings off of that valve either way, right? You're just saying I should mount the QDs in a metal panel permanently instead, right?

I'm all for keeping the price down, but I'm certain I'm still not seeing how this all fits together.

The tank return is going to plug into the place where the backhoe return plugs in, right? I don't have to invent any new connections to existing hydraulic plumbing, right?

I'm going to have to draw this out on paper to see if I'm understanding it.

EDIT: And thanks SO MUCH for helping me understand this.

I do these all of the time and you are quite welcome.

I am saying no hoses on the quick connects - mount them right on top of the valve. That will save you significant $$$ and a lot of grief dealing with hose management.

You need to add a tank return to the plumbing for the valve. That is not the same as the backhoe return The backhoe return is a high pressure power beyond going to the 3pt. The low pressure tank return is a new low pressure (300 PSI) hose going to a tee installed in the loader valve tank return. See B2650 parts diagram below. Just some cheap and flexible oil resistant hose like used on oil coolers and 4 hose clamps,

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Here is the plumbing.

Top is the two existing lines for the backhoe.

Bottom is the modified circuit with the new valve installed in the backhoe supply line. The blue line is the new tank return.

Dan

 

[Vigo]

Wow, sorry for not noticing this for so long.

I am NOT going to push the electro-hydraulic actuator solution but i will at least explain it, in my case anyway. I got mine (2 of em) for $200/ea on ebay. Not because they were exactly what i wanted (theyre on the small side for this job) but because they were the ONLY reasonably priced ones i found for sale over a period of about half a year.

I installed one as a power top link on my Kubota B6100 powered through a 6-terminal ‘motor-reversing’ switch. I verified it pulls no more than 22amps on 12v when hitting its relief pressure. I have more like a TWO amp charging system on that tractor but you dont run a top link all that often so it averages out just fine. The first one i ordered a spherical rod end (ball joint) that would screw onto the rod and left the base end a regular crosspin hole. Eventually after maybe a year i got careless and let an implement jam up on the onboard reservoir of the cylinder and crack it, so i swapped on the extra one i had until i repaired the other one. This time i just welded ball ends on both ends because i was feeing a lot more confident about welding by then.

So, issues..
1. availability. You want a different size, different force level? tough crap. These things barely exist in a competitive price range to normal hydraulic options. Keeping in mind, by the time you hit 350$ or so you can buy a standalone 12v hydraulic power pack and any dang cylinder you like from surplus center and have tons of options.. but in the <$300 range options for electro-hydraulic actuators are extremely limited.
2. Strength. The ones i have are barely strong enough to handle the job of top link on my tractor which is the absolute bottom end of the cat1 size range. It has no problem pushing out (duh, gravity) but when pulling the top in it struggles (just really slow) with 300-400lb attachments and i doubt it would tilt up my bush hogs at all, though i havent tried. You can work around it pretty easy if it were to actually stall out pulling on something, but this is the main reason i dont really recommend the specific cylinders i bought for anything other than the smallest cat1 applications. I do think these exact models would be good for anything that has to do with pushing wheels down on a drag implement, or angle adjustment on an implement. I dont foresee ever NOT using the ones i have, but i will eventually use them for something besides a top link. Like welding, my familiarity with hydraulics has improved leaps and bounds and i can diy a full hydraulic top link setup right now, just waiting on motivation.

So given the same circumstances i would do the same thing over again, it truly is ‘good enough’ for my application and cheaper and simpler overall than 99% of all hydraulic
top link setups. I really like these things. But i dont go songing their praises because i cant point you directly to a bigger model that would be strong enough for a bigger machine/implements and still cost less than a ‘regular’ hydraulic top link setup. So in some ways, my setup is a fluke. But its still cool for me, and im still happy with it and glad i did it.

sorry about image rotation

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

Wow, sorry for not noticing this for so long.

Heh, no worries, you got here just in time. Thanks for the full explanation, I really appreciate it. TheOldHokie is helping me slowly build confidence that I can go the full hydraulic route, but I'm glad I know more about the electro-hydraulic option.

Rob

 

[TheOldHokie]

Heh, no worries, you got here just in time. Thanks for the full explanation, I really appreciate it. TheOldHokie is helping me slowly build confidence that I can go the full hydraulic route, but I'm glad I know more about the electro-hydraulic option.

Rob

This will set the valve on that under seat shelf with four 1/2" AG couplers rigidly mounted horizontally in a 2 x 2 pattern to the top ports. The valve has JIC-8 male fittings in the P, T, and PB ports ready to hook up to the backhoe and loader valve hoses. I would guess you could get the remainder of what you need for less than $50.

Dan

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

This will set the valve on that under seat shelf with four 1/2" AG couplers rigidly mounted horizontally in a 2 x 2 pattern to the top ports. The valve has JIC-8 male fittings in the P, T, and PB ports ready to hook up to the backhoe and loader valve hoses. I would guess you could get the remainder of what you need for less than $50.

Dan

View attachment 94981

Oh man, I hope you're right, because that's totally justifiable to the wife.
Let me (probably tomorrow) draw all this out on paper so I understand where the connections go. Are those part numbers summit hydraulics parts, so I can see what they are?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Oh man, I hope you're right, because that's totally justifiable to the wife.
Let me (probably tomorrow) draw all this out on paper so I understand where the connections go. Are those part numbers summit hydraulics parts, so I can see what they are?

Yes - much less expensive than people think. I do lots of these and unless there is some problem with obstructions that list will put the valve and couplers under the seat. Then its just a some minor rerouting of the backhoe supply line.

The valve and couplers are Summit. The part numbers are industry standard JIC/SAE hydraulic fittings. I probably have most of it in stock. Just ask Google to show you pictures.

Dan

PS> You can add float to one or both spools for another $50 per spool.

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

PS> You can add float to one or both spools for another $50 per spool.

I was thinking about that. Given that the only 3pt attachment I have right now is a box blade, and probably the next one would be a back blade, is a float function something useful for those? I think it might be useful for re-centering the blades. Just sit on pavement and put top and tilt in float, and it would be centered and level again....

 

[TheOldHokie]

I was thinking about that. Given that the only 3pt attachment I have right now is a box blade, and probably the next one would be a back blade, is a float function something useful for those? I think it might be useful for re-centering the blades. Just sit on pavement and put top and tilt in float, and it would be centered and level again....

Probably more useful for allowing the implement to follow ground contours. Leveling can be accomplished with pressure. I just checked and actual prices are $109 vs $190 and $224.

Float does preclude the use of lock valves to prevent cylinder drift.

Dan

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

Probably more useful for allowing the implement to follow ground contours. Leveling can be accomplished with pressure. I just checked and actual prices are $109 vs $190 and $224.

Float does preclude the use of lock valves to prevent cylinder drift.

Dan

Well, there's no implement I can think of for our property that will need to follow ground contours. And right now, I've been using the box blade without any kind of float function at all! So I can probably live without it and avoid the inevitable feature creep, and "save" $100.

 

[Vigo]

A box blade will sit level on its own because of its walls, but a ‘back blade’/‘angle blade’ with a top link in float will just sink in the front until the top link is fully retracted.

Something about a back blade that a lot of people dont realize is that a power top link lets you change the agressiveness of the blade in both directions (ie also with the blade spun backwards so you can backdrag going forward). But then beyond that, when you change the top link with the blade straight it stays level side to side, but if you change the top link with the blade angled, it also becomes unlevel side to side. Having a power tilt function would allow you to easily compensate for that if desired.

But yeah, scope creep is a problem. A regular power top link without float is like 70-80% of the game, and if you get power tilt or float functions yeah thats nice but nowhere near the overall usefulness of a regular old power top link, ubless you’re a full time landscape artist maybe.

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

Bought the valve..... No going back now!

Plus I wanted to be able to have it in my hand to figure out the best mounting location.

Dan, just to make sure i'm getting it (it takes me a while). So, I *COULD*, through the use of quick disconnects, treat this valve as basically a backhoe if I wanted, right? So when I disconnect my backhoe, I'd connect the hose from the tractor to the valve block (instead of back into the tractor) and then connect a hose permanently connected to the valve body into the tractor...thus the "loop" is completed. Do I understand that right, that I COULD do that?

What I understand that you are suggesting to do, though, is to permanently attach the valve to the supply from the tractor (that normally goes to the backhoe) and create a new return from there so that the valve is always being supplied. Then to connect the backhoe, I'd connect from the valve body to the backhoe and from the backhoe into the place it now goes on the tractor. Is that all right?

Thanks.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Bought the valve..... No going back now!

Plus I wanted to be able to have it in my hand to figure out the best mounting location.

Dan, just to make sure i'm getting it (it takes me a while). So, I *COULD*, through the use of quick disconnects, treat this valve as basically a backhoe if I wanted, right? So when I disconnect my backhoe, I'd connect the hose from the tractor to the valve block (instead of back into the tractor) and then connect a hose permanently connected to the valve body into the tractor...thus the "loop" is completed. Do I understand that right, that I COULD do that?

What I understand that you are suggesting to do, though, is to permanently attach the valve to the supply from the tractor (that normally goes to the backhoe) and create a new return from there so that the valve is always being supplied. Then to connect the backhoe, I'd connect from the valve body to the backhoe and from the backhoe into the place it now goes on the tractor. Is that all right?

Thanks.

That is 99% correct. But....

You cant treat the valve for the remotes the same as the valve on the backhoe. Why is that?

Its because Kubota is cheating with their backhoe hookup. The backhoe return line is actually connected to the inlet on the 3pt valve. When the backhoe is hooked up the 3pt is physically disabled so that "return" line is open to tank and there is no back pressure on the tank port of the backhoe valve.

When you take the backhoe off and hook the AUX valve up you will be using the 3pt to lift things and that will subject the "return" line to full sysyem pressure. The seals on the tank port of the AUX valve are not designed for that level of back pressure and you risk damaging them = leaks. So you need to use the power beyond port on the AUX valve to feed the 3pt and that in turn requires a third dedicated tank port - e.g a third coupler your backhoe circuit does not currently have.

Clear?

Dan

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

Clear?

Dan

Omigosh, I think I ALMOST understand that.

The backhoe hookup relies on the idea that the 3pt hitch won't be lifting anything (because how could it, there's a backhoe there!) Sure, it still works, I've moved the hitch while the backhoe was attached...but there's no weight on it, so no real pressure buildup when the hydraulics are involved.

If I hooked up the valves the same way as the backhoe, then there would be hydraulics going into that port on the tractor potentially when the 3pt hitch IS lifting something heavy...and it wasn't designed for that interaction.

That's brilliant that you know that. I would have just figured it was a supply and return line, and so you could hook up anything to either line and use it any way you wanted.

Now I believe I understand why I have to create a return somewhere else from the valves Doing that, because it sounds like hacking a part, is still the scariest aspect of this whole thing. Do I cut into a line somewhere (not random, I know...just don't know where yet), put in a t-junction, and then connect 3 hoses with hose clamps?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Omigosh, I think I ALMOST understand that.

The backhoe hookup relies on the idea that the 3pt hitch won't be lifting anything (because how could it, there's a backhoe there!) Sure, it still works, I've moved the hitch while the backhoe was attached...but there's no weight on it, so no real pressure buildup when the hydraulics are involved.

If I hooked up the valves the same way as the backhoe, then there would be hydraulics going into that port on the tractor potentially when the 3pt hitch IS lifting something heavy...and it wasn't designed for that interaction.

That's brilliant that you know that. I would have just figured it was a supply and return line, and so you could hook up anything to either line and use it any way you wanted.

Now I believe I understand why I have to create a return somewhere else from the valves Doing that, because it sounds like hacking a part, is still the scariest aspect of this whole thing. Do I cut into a line somewhere (not random, I know...just don't know where yet), put in a t-junction, and then connect 3 hoses with hose clamps?

Careful - my ego is oversize already

You got it figured out.

I would just caution that raising the 3pt lever with the backhoe connected can damage the backhoe valve. There is no weight on the lift arms but when the lift gets to the top pressure can still max out at the end of its mechanical travel.

The loader valve is just like the AUX valve and it already has a tank return connection. Its a low pressure (300 PSI) hose connected with hose clamps. You can tap into it by cutting it in half and installing a tee. Then plumb the tee to the tank port on the AUX valve with a few feet of inexpensive 3/8" transmission oil line and hose clamps. I posted a parts diagram showing the location of the loader tank return a ways back in this thread. Should be nothing scary about making that low pressure connection

Advance Auto Parts - Down for Maintenance

Advance Auto Parts - Down for Maintenance

Dan

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

Just an update, got the valve...and noticed right away that it had already been opened. The plastic bag it was in had been cut open, there were hydraulic stains on the box and instructions, and the instructions were partially torn. Not pleased. I don't care if the valve is fine, if I'm paying for something new, I expect it to look new when I get it. So sending it back for another one.

 

[BetterThanAShovel]

Ok, I'm finally back on this. Weather has warmed enough to get me outside again.

I need to fully understand the connections that have to happen before I can start to visualize it and then order the other parts I'll need.

I drew a diagram to help me understand what connection goes where. I've arbitrarily named the 4 existing connections as ABCD. So, in normal circumstances with the backhoe removed, then I connect C to D and A to B. When the backhoe is attached, I connect A to D and C to B.

So, what I need to understand is how the N, T, and P connections on the valve enter into the equation. I could guess, but that'd be fruitless.

Thanks for any help.

Rob