Hot engine

jyoutz

Well-known member

Equipment
MX6000 HST open station, FEL, 6’ cutter, forks, 8’ rear blade, 7’ cultivator
Jan 14, 2019
2,504
1,610
113
Edgewood, New Mexico
I spent several hours rotary cutting today. Towards the end of the day, the tractor started to overheat. I shut it down and immediately checked the radiator screen expecting it was clogged. It was not. I removed the air filter and found it dusty. After cleaning and reinstalling, the tractor ran at normal temperature. Can a dirty air filter cause overheating?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Motion

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
Kubota MX5100HST/FEL
Aug 17, 2020
524
289
63
Mandeville Louisiana
Try to determine if it's the engine or hydraulic system causing the issue. I believe the hydraulic system cooler is in front of the screen on your tractor. I don't believe the air filter would cause overheating unless it is extremely blocked. Confirm that the belt is adjusted correctly. Ensure that the brakes aren't dragging. Confirm that the three-point feedback lever linkage is adjusted correctly.
 

Flintknapper

Well-known member
Premium Member

Equipment
L2350DT
May 3, 2022
1,590
2,015
113
Deep East Texas
Can a dirty air filter cause overheating?
Absolutely. IF dirty enough......it can change the Air/Fuel ratio resulting is less power. Less power means the engine is working harder to the achieve the demands being put on it.

The cooling system has to absorb that extra heat and at some point can't shed it effectively.

Now....that doesn't mean that the Air/Fuel mixture ALONE was the cause. I would certainly look to see that any screens are not clogged...the radiator fins themselves are clean, no belts are slipping, coolant level is correct, radiator cap is working correctly, etc...
 

GeoHorn

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M4700DT, LA1002FEL, Ferguson5-8B Compactor-Roller, 10KDumpTrailer, RTV-X900
May 18, 2018
5,720
3,035
113
Texas
Absolutely. IF dirty enough......it can change the Air/Fuel ratio resulting is less power. Less power means the engine is working harder to the achieve the demands being put on it.
...
If that were true, then a diesel that spends any time Idling …. would overheat.

Diesels pull the same air into the cylinder every intake stroke.… the amount of power output is determined by how much fuel is injected at every compression stroke. A reduction in air would only result in incomplete combustion of the fuel…and therefore a cooler running engine. The amount of heat (BTUs) generated is determined by the amount of BTUs provided in the fuel which is burned…not injected.
In an extreme example, A completely-blocked air filter would cause engine shut-down, not overheating.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

RBsingl

Well-known member

Equipment
Kubota F 2690 72" rear discharge deck, Deere 955
Jul 1, 2022
408
425
63
Central IL
A dirty air filter will send the EGT through the roof with a diesel engine. And excessively high exhaust gas temperature is going to impact engine operating temperature in addition to the damage it does to the engine.

The amount of air pulled in by the diesel engine is proportional to the intake restriction and with a heavily fouled air filter, you will be running with significant manifold vacuum and a fuel system that is injecting too much fuel for operating conditions. It is no different than people turning the pump up too high in their quest for power and finding the thermal weak point in the engine. If you add more fuel, you have to add more air and if you restrict the input resulting in less air then you have to reduce the fueling (and developed power).

Many modern diesel engines monitor EGT to protect the engine (turbocharger in particular) and will pull fuel when needed to prevent the problem but without this safeguard it allows the operator to try to extract requested power by adding more fuel with resultant EGT issues.

Rodger
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

GeoHorn

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M4700DT, LA1002FEL, Ferguson5-8B Compactor-Roller, 10KDumpTrailer, RTV-X900
May 18, 2018
5,720
3,035
113
Texas
A dirty air filter will send the EGT through the roof with a diesel engine. And excessively high exhaust gas temperature is going to impact engine operating temperature in addition to the damage it does to the engine.

The amount of air pulled in by the diesel engine is proportional to the intake restriction and with a heavily fouled air filter, you will be running with significant manifold vacuum and a fuel system that is injecting too much fuel for operating conditions. It is no different than people turning the pump up too high in their quest for power and finding the thermal weak point in the engine. If you add more fuel, you have to add more air and if you restrict the input resulting in less air then you have to reduce the fueling (and developed power).

Many modern diesel engines monitor EGT to protect the engine (turbocharger in particular) and will pull fuel when needed to prevent the problem but without this safeguard it allows the operator to try to extract requested power by adding more fuel with resultant EGT issues.

Rodger
That is incorrect. Too much fuel/air ratio will result in too “rich” mixture and LOWER combustion temps.
 

RBsingl

Well-known member

Equipment
Kubota F 2690 72" rear discharge deck, Deere 955
Jul 1, 2022
408
425
63
Central IL
WRONG with diesel engines, see Banks for example: https://official.bankspower.com/tech_article/why-egt-is-important/

You are correct about gasoline fueled engines having cooler combustion with richer mixture but diesels don't operate with a limited AFM range and more importantly the fuel and air are not evenly mixed within the combustion area of a diesel engine.

But regardless of overheating, a restricted air filter from neglect is a bad thing for both diesel and gas engines. With a diesel engine in ag service, you are going to quickly uncover any weak points in filter or sealing design which will show itself with a higher count in undesired parts of the earth :)

Rodger
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

The Evil Twin

Well-known member

Equipment
L2501, LA526,
Jul 19, 2022
2,392
2,311
113
Virginia
I spent several hours rotary cutting today. Towards the end of the day, the tractor started to overheat. I shut it down and immediately checked the radiator screen expecting it was clogged. It was not. I removed the air filter and found it dusty. After cleaning and reinstalling, the tractor ran at normal temperature. Can a dirty air filter cause overheating?
Did you check the coolant level in the puke tank and radiator? Low coolant will obviously cause an issue. So will a failing radiator cap. A cap that doesn't let the system build pressure can cause overheating. A symptom is an overflow tank that is excessively full when compared to what it was when the engine is cool.
 

jyoutz

Well-known member

Equipment
MX6000 HST open station, FEL, 6’ cutter, forks, 8’ rear blade, 7’ cultivator
Jan 14, 2019
2,504
1,610
113
Edgewood, New Mexico
Did you check the coolant level in the puke tank and radiator? Low coolant will obviously cause an issue. So will a failing radiator cap. A cap that doesn't let the system build pressure can cause overheating. A symptom is an overflow tank that is excessively full when compared to what it was when the engine is cool.
My coolant tank was completely full when I shut down the hot engine.
 

The Evil Twin

Well-known member

Equipment
L2501, LA526,
Jul 19, 2022
2,392
2,311
113
Virginia
My coolant tank was completely full when I shut down the hot engine.
I would test the cap. It may or may not be the problem, but you can then rule it out. The tank could have been full because it was over the normal operating temp. It could also be because it wasn't holding pressure. Hard to say from a distance.
I can't count the times that I have solved overheating problems on motorcycles with a new cap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Rdrcr

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L2501 w/ S2T Turbo Kit = 35 PTO HP (Current), B2601 (Sold)
May 7, 2021
629
650
93
WA
That is incorrect. Too much fuel/air ratio will result in too “rich” mixture and LOWER combustion temps.
Totally inaccurate. In a diesel engine, less air and more fuel equals higher EGT’s and combustion temperatures, period.

Mike
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

GeoHorn

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M4700DT, LA1002FEL, Ferguson5-8B Compactor-Roller, 10KDumpTrailer, RTV-X900
May 18, 2018
5,720
3,035
113
Texas
Mike, … if a fixed quantity of air is served by a fuel injector calibrated maximally for that full air-charge….. but the air charge is reduced due to obstructed induction system…the mixture will be Richer than that programmed. At some point (it might be extreme) that too-rich mixture will have incomplete combustion…resulting in lower temp.

In another analogy, …there is a deliberate reduction in gasoline engines by use of a throttle-plate. Whatever air passes by the throttle plate is ideally mixed due to a carb venturi….or by a programmed injection system. Those engines which use a carb (throttle plate) for engine-speed ..automatically are leaned by the venturi mass air flow. If one were to continue delivery of higher fuel rates…with reduced throttle plate….the mixture would be excessively rich…and burn cooler.

Although diesels do not use that method…. use of a fixed-volume of air-charge and the injection system adds fuel to increase combustion which increases engine-speed.
But if you threw-in a throttle plate …or dirty filter or some other reduction in air intake…for a short period of rpm increase the tempt would rise as you mention…but continued addition of fuel in a severely restricted/choked induction system would eventually become excessively rich….and result in a decrease in temp. (and the excess fuel would eventually result in incomplete combustion…..“slobber” and contribute to a decrease in temp.)

Teach me how that is wrong, please.
 

Rdrcr

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L2501 w/ S2T Turbo Kit = 35 PTO HP (Current), B2601 (Sold)
May 7, 2021
629
650
93
WA
Mike, … if a fixed quantity of air is served by a fuel injector calibrated maximally for that full air-charge….. but the air charge is reduced due to obstructed induction system…the mixture will be Richer than that programmed. At some point (it might be extreme) that too-rich mixture will have incomplete combustion…resulting in lower temp.

In another analogy, …there is a deliberate reduction in gasoline engines by use of a throttle-plate. Whatever air passes by the throttle plate is ideally mixed due to a carb venturi….or by a programmed injection system. Those engines which use a carb (throttle plate) for engine-speed ..automatically are leaned by the venturi mass air flow. If one were to continue delivery of higher fuel rates…with reduced throttle plate….the mixture would be excessively rich…and burn cooler.

Although diesels do not use that method…. use of a fixed-volume of air-charge and the injection system adds fuel to increase combustion which increases engine-speed.
But if you threw-in a throttle plate …or dirty filter or some other reduction in air intake…for a short period of rpm increase the tempt would rise as you mention…but continued addition of fuel in a severely restricted/choked induction system would eventually become excessively rich….and result in a decrease in temp. (and the excess fuel would eventually result in incomplete combustion…..“slobber” and contribute to a decrease in temp.)

Teach me how that is wrong, please.
Out of complete curiosity, were you opposed to reading the link provided to you above from banks power? It explains the effects of air and fuel delivery on a diesel engine very well.

Trust me, there was a time when I had the same opinion as yourself. However, I have personally experimented and tested this theory extensively with the Turbo development on my L2501 tractor....Combustion temperatures will rise with restricted air flow and the same fuel amount and stock air flow with additional fuel. The only way to cool combustion temperatures in a diesel engine (assuming the same fuel amount) is to add additional air flow (Turbocharger or unrestricted intake) and the cooling affect will depend on the fuel flow and extent of the additional air flow.

As an example, an L2501 tractor operating at 9,000 feet elevation will produce EGT temperatures in excess of 1,100 degrees completely stock. When at sea level, the same tractor produces a maximum EGT temperature of 800 degrees. Why? There is less air at 9,000 feet. So, with limited air flow capacity and the same fuel amount, the combustion temperatures and EGT temperatures increase.

Mike
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

Flintknapper

Well-known member
Premium Member

Equipment
L2350DT
May 3, 2022
1,590
2,015
113
Deep East Texas
Mike, … if a fixed quantity of air is served by a fuel injector calibrated maximally for that full air-charge….. but the air charge is reduced due to obstructed induction system…the mixture will be Richer than that programmed. At some point (it might be extreme) that too-rich mixture will have incomplete combustion…resulting in lower temp.

In another analogy, …there is a deliberate reduction in gasoline engines by use of a throttle-plate. Whatever air passes by the throttle plate is ideally mixed due to a carb venturi….or by a programmed injection system. Those engines which use a carb (throttle plate) for engine-speed ..automatically are leaned by the venturi mass air flow. If one were to continue delivery of higher fuel rates…with reduced throttle plate….the mixture would be excessively rich…and burn cooler.

Although diesels do not use that method…. use of a fixed-volume of air-charge and the injection system adds fuel to increase combustion which increases engine-speed.
But if you threw-in a throttle plate …or dirty filter or some other reduction in air intake…for a short period of rpm increase the tempt would rise as you mention…but continued addition of fuel in a severely restricted/choked induction system would eventually become excessively rich….and result in a decrease in temp. (and the excess fuel would eventually result in incomplete combustion…..“slobber” and contribute to a decrease in temp.)

Teach me how that is wrong, please.
Too rich a fuel mixture in a diesel does NOT have a 'quenching' effect, it increases EGT and eventually combustion temp. Its basically a lesser version of 'lugging' the engine. Please study up on this.

YES, diesels will 'run' over a very wide range of AFR.....but not optimally and overheating can indeed be induced by severely restricted air intake.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

Russell King

Well-known member

Equipment
L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
4,667
1,003
113
Austin, Texas
I spent several hours rotary cutting today. Towards the end of the day, the tractor started to overheat. I shut it down and immediately checked the radiator screen expecting it was clogged. It was not. I removed the air filter and found it dusty. After cleaning and reinstalling, the tractor ran at normal temperature. Can a dirty air filter cause overheating?
Since you’re in New Mexico, I assume it is dry and dusty. The dust will generally not be a problem but can cause clogging of the radiator fins in some conditions.

I would recommend using a garden hose not high pressure nozzle and try to rinse the radiator fins off from the rear (fan side normally) towards the front (air intake) side.

You can also remove the radiator and clean it well if it continues to cause problems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

North Idaho Wolfman

Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
Jun 9, 2013
28,705
5,121
113
Sandpoint, ID
Was it pouring out black smoke?
If not, I'm sure it's temps was not the result of a super fueling pyroclastic event..

Over heats are normally a cause of not enough coolant movement, not enough air moving or exhaust getting mixed with coolant.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

GeoHorn

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M4700DT, LA1002FEL, Ferguson5-8B Compactor-Roller, 10KDumpTrailer, RTV-X900
May 18, 2018
5,720
3,035
113
Texas
Too rich a fuel mixture in a diesel does NOT have a 'quenching' effect, it increased EGT and eventually combustion temp. Its basically a lesser version of 'lugging' the engine. Please study up on this.

YES, diesels will 'run' over a very wide range of AFR.....but not optimally and overheating can indeed be induced by severely restricted air intake.
Out of complete curiosity, were you opposed to reading the link provided to you above from banks power? It explains the effects of air and fuel delivery on a diesel engine very well. …
Actually I didn’t notice the link as it’s a in a opaque color and I inadvertently ignored it. I‘ll give it a gander…
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user