Guns...Times have changed...

Bmyers

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Re: White Privilege: "As far as you being targeted, maybe you need to consider your life choices if you feel that people are out targeting you. Most likely, you aren't on anybody's radar."

You don't know how anyone is targeted, although it's all around you in the news, in neighborhoods, in racial and ethnic bias around friends and family. My response was in response to your life choices statement and your clear lack of understanding for minority oppression and targeting by the aforementioned groups. Prime example would be the recent terrorist attack of a white nationalist targeting only African Americans in a predominantly African American neighborhood and apologizing to the Caucasian cashier for pointing a gun at him. I don't think any consideration of personal choices would impact a domestic terror group's intent to target minorities. The only consideration and personal choice I've made, as a civilian who is of sane mind and unaffiliated with any group, is to protect myself and my family by having the means to do so. Again, a priveledge.

Regarding your healthcare statement, please show the facts. I specifically found the reporting requirements for qualified professionals on the ILDHS website and not by chatting with 4 people in the field.

Re: Churches - another example of having the blinders on. What about mosques or other sites of worship? In America, while churches may be safe, mosques are targeted. One religious group's safety and a few school incidents in other countries are not an indicator that our country (one who is viewed as being more "humanitarian" than others) has a problem with mass killings using firearms.

I also don't support groups looting, burning buildings, and breaking the law. There is a fine line between peaceful protest and terrorism. Your comment indicates a similar understanding.

I have done my research:


The NRA as well as pro 2A Americans didn't propose gun control until it was for a targeted demographic. My argument is, and while you say you don't have a problem with it, others will as history has shown. My opinion is that all groups that have the potential for committing violent acts and are being watched by law enforcement should not be able to purchase firearms.


This is where our opinions are totally different. While I am not opposed to the right to bear arms, I am opposed to unstable individuals having easy access to firearms. I, personally, cannot infringe upon your rights and my proposal shouldn't either since you aren't a part of an FBI watchlist organization or mentally unstable...right? So not sure of the point you're trying to make.

As far as adding more police to schools, another point. When does this end? Do you want police literally everywhere you go? Do we want a country comprised of police anywhere and everywhere watching our every move? There are good police officers and there are bad ones - I have had experiences with both, but I will say, you will never forget your experiences with a bad cop. Will they help? Maybe? Is there corruption in existing police forces? Yes. Should you be comfortable with such a huge police presence without any reform of the existing police construct? That's up to you, but I wouldn't. That's a slippery slope.
Oh I see, white privilege. So I need to look at the news. Let's look at recent headlines, black man attacks New York Subway.

How about the hate crimes committed to Asian Americans:

In New York City, where anti-Asian hate crime soared nearly nine-fold in 2020 over the year before, only two of the 20 people arrested last year in connection with these attacks were white, according to New York Police Department data analyzed by the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism. Eleven were African Americans, six were white Hispanics and one was a Black Hispanic.

Maybe the hate crime committed on a handicapped boy in Chicago https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/us/chicago-facebook-live-beating/index.html

When you start looking at the data, yes, whites do commit hate crimes, but other groups commit hate crimes. Sadly, as I have stated we are dealing with a MORAL issue and does not have to do with RACE, but with the condition of your heart (morals).

You look up one website and you now know how the mental health system works in Illinois, yet you stopped at one spot and don't go through all the research. There is the FOID Act definition and then how the courts have defined it. The clinicians are given leeway when dealing with suicidal person. For example, a man loses his wife in a car wreck and he is talking to clinician and says I don't think I can live any longer with her being gone. The clinician has the ability to determine if the man is truly contemplating suicide and needs to be reported or if the man is just going through the grieving process.

"CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER" MEANS A PERSON WHO:
(1) communicates a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or poses a clear and imminent risk of serious physical injury to himself, herself, or another person as determined by a physician, clinical psychologist, or qualified examiner; or

(2) demonstrates threatening physical or verbal behavior, such as violent, suicidal, or assaultive threats, actions, or other behavior, as determined by a physician, clinical psychologist, qualified examiner, school administrator, or law enforcement official. (FOID Act, Sec. 1.1)

I stated churches because you stated churches. Regardless of the religious affiliations, religious establishments OUTSIDE of the US have had more attacks than those inside of the US. Did I list every attack that occurred outside of the US, no and nor will I.

You make that statement that I'm okay with "unstable' people having firearms, which is a false statement. Yet, you simple solution that it is mental illness that is causing the problem is wrong.

There are mentally ill people that will NEVER hurt anyone. Mental illness is a disease, just like diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. and needs to be treated. Not made into a stigma to discourage those that need help from getting help. My grandmother was a retired nurse from the mental hospital who helped me understand that there is a whole lot more to mental illness than just 'being crazy' or in your words "unstable".

Moral illness or the lack of morals is social issue. You do not want to address that issue. You want the easy button, blame it on mental illness. There are lots of examples of perfectly mentally stable people doing morally wrong things, including killing. Blaming moral failures on mental illness is trying to take the easy route and not take the responsibility of the moral failures.

Well since you keep trying to imply things by misreading my statements, let me do you the same.

Why are you so afraid having police everywhere or you going around committing criminal acts everywhere? If you are not a criminal you shouldn't have an issue with police everywhere.

(See two can play at that game.)

Yet, once again you failed and missed the point. We need to protect our children. Your proposals do NOTHING to keep them safe. My proposals WILL make a difference. Again, look around you and see what we do to protect assets. We can put armed guards in schools, it has been done in the US and in other countries and is effective. We can fund schools to install bullet resistant doors and locks to prevent killers from gaining access into the classrooms. We can change the laws to allow teachers that want to be trained and to carry a firearm to do just that.

Your proposal of it is a mental illness issue does NOTHING to prevent morally corrupt person from obtaining a weapon (which guess what most of gang members don't get their weapons legally) and carrying out this horrible act.

My proposals do.

One final note about the NRA. You bring up an article from 60 years ago and you hold the organization accountable and say they are bad. I'm okay with that if you will do the same for the other organizations such as the Democratic party and them voting against outlawing slavery

In 1864, an amendment abolishing slavery passed the U.S. Senate but died in the House as Democrats rallied in the name of states’ rights. The election of 1864 brought Lincoln back to the White House along with significant Republican majorities in both houses, so it appeared the amendment was headed for passage when the new Congress convened in early 1865. Lincoln preferred that the amendment receive bipartisan support—some Democrats indicated support for the measure, but many still resisted. The amendment passed 119 to 56, just barely above the necessary two-thirds majority. Several Democrats abstained, but the 13th Amendment was sent to the states for ratification, which came in December 1865. With the passage of the amendment, the institution that had indelibly shaped American history was eradicated.

I would expect you do not vote Democrat and support any Democrat politician because of what they did in history? Or do I need to go on and list other groups that have made wrong choices over the years and we can debate if they should be supported or not.
 
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motionclone

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Takes a pretty sick type of "HUMAN" to use a tragedy like these mudered kids to further a devisive political agenda.
 
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radas

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Takes a pretty sick type of "HUMAN" to use a tragedy like these mudered kids to further a devisive political agenda.
Yes, like claiming your gun rights are at risk. Disgusting.
 
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Matt Ellerbee

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I don't agree with the "arm teachers" answer to the problem. Teachers are already overworked and underpaid and parents expect them to raise their kids while at school. Now you ask them to act as armed police too? If my wife was told she had to carry while teaching, she would not teach anymore, and quite honestly it's the kids that would suffer for it. I'd have no problem with a teacher carrying if 1. they wanted to , and 2. they were specifically trained to (and I don't mean a simple CCW permit class, I mean real hands on active shooter training). I also think if they chose to carry, they should also get paid to do so.
A more practical solution would be to pay folks that are already highly trained to protect our schools. This is done in many places but not everywhere. I don't know what the best answer is, but "arm teachers" is not it in my opinion.
You are correct. That was my knee jerk reaction to Henros post. I agree, my wife was a teacher, if she was carrying, she better be paid for it.
 
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jkrubi12

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As a retired LEO who spent 10 years working as a school resource officer it amazes me when communities do not protect schools with uniformed armed on-duty police officers.

The PRIDE AND JOY of the entire community is there. Not protecting it sufficiently seems negligent.

Don't burden teachers with firearms; they're teachers! They work hard enough.
 
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Henro

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Aside from a few stray shots, I commend everyone for sharing their feeling in an essentially civil manner.

Had no idea this thread would move as it has, and the original post was probably just an old guy expressing feelings on how things used to be better. (By no means admitting to being an old guy, LOL)

I happen to possess a very nice AR15 from about 30 years, or so, ago. No shells for it though, and I will likely never shoot it. I just LIKE it for what it is, not for what good or evil it could do...

Also have a really neat double barrel 12 gage, that I was told was like what is used for self defense in Brazil. External hammers that need to be physically cocked in order to fire the weapon. Cool safety feature in my simple mind. Have a box of buckshot for that one...but so old they may or may not fire if tried.

Point is, kind of, that I just hope my mental state remains constant for the years I have left on the planet...I am sure it will because my core belief is do no harm to others or one's self.

But how can we know how people might change AFTER the fact. I don't think we can, which makes the issue even more difficult.
 
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Crash277

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Aside from a few stray shots, I commend everyone for sharing their feeling in an essentially civil manner.

Had no idea this thread would move as it has, and the original post was probably just an old guy expressing feelings on how things used to be better. (By no means admitting to being an old guy, LOL)

I happen to possess a very nice AR15 from about 30 years, or so, ago. No shells for it though, and I will likely never shoot it. I just LIKE it for what it is, not for what good or evil it could do...

Also have a really neat double barrel 12 gage, that I was told was like what is used for self defense in Brazil. External hammers that need to be physically cocked in order to fire the weapon. Cool safety feature in my simple mind. Have a box of buckshot for that one...but so old they may or may not fire if tried.

Point is, kind of, that I just hope my mental state remains constant for the years I have left on the planet...I am sure it will because my core belief is do no harm to others or one's self.

But how can we know how people might change AFTER the fact. I don't think we can, which makes the issue even more difficult.
One of my favorites is my side by side 12g. its as short as is legally allowed up here and was a friend of mines who passed away. Think Val Kilmmer as Doc Holliday... its an old school western coach gun. i loved that gun when i was younger thanks to that movie, its super fun to shoot. 2 hammers, 2 triggers and you can pull both at the same time (wouldn't recommend doing that too often its got a bit of kick).
 
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DaveFromMi

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How can an unemployed 18 year old loner buy two expensive rifles that cost about 5000 dollars plus expensive body armor and drive a 70 thousand dollar Ford pickup truck? Then enter a school through an UNLOCKED. Back door? Nope something isn’t right here
Very good questions. Hopefully answers to these and other questions come out in the investigation.
Why did the cops stand down when there was an active shooter in the school? The cops latest reason is that the gunman was barricaded and not so much a threat.
The top cop admitted that some cops went in to get their own kids out. If there was minimal danger, why did they do that?
Parkland, Fla cops were fired for cowardice.
 
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Biker1mike

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A teacher with a handgun against an assault rifle and body armor is a fool's folly at best.
Plus. If you arm the teacher they must be mentally ready to kill a human.
Hardening a school is not that hard. All exterior doors locked and only opened for fire or evacuation. Main lobby is at least double doors with access by identification only with operator behind another bullet proof glass.
 
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motionclone

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A teacher with a handgun against an assault rifle and body armor is a fool's folly at best.
Plus. If you arm the teacher they must be mentally ready to kill a human.
Hardening a school is not that hard. All exterior doors locked and only opened for fire or evacuation. Main lobby is at least double doors with access by identification only with operator behind another bullet proof glass.
School was already hardened but a teacher unfortunately propped open a door and thats how the perp got in.

Yeah, a teacher with a pistol and a crazy with a semi auto isnt a fair match but this gunman was in the school for over an hour because the cops didnt go in. Wonder if some lives would have been saved had at least one teacher been armed.
 

Joisey

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How can an unemployed 18 year old loner buy two expensive rifles that cost about 5000 dollars plus expensive body armor and drive a 70 thousand dollar Ford pickup truck? Then enter a school through an UNLOCKED. Back door? Nope something isn’t right here
Because the government is behind it?
 

D2Cat

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Here come the conspiracy theories denouncing the existence of a tragedy. Have some shame, there are many parents and family members suffering a tragic loss and you're questioning it's legitimacy... What a joke.
Oh great wise one don't play your conspiracy card, give some logical answers!
 
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Nicfin36

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I really don't understand why the teacher with a firearm suggestion is so controversial. Everyone against it instantly says, "No teacher should be forced to carry a gun." Who is saying teachers have to be forced to carry a gun?

I would say, most teachers should not carry a gun. But, there are certainly some that know firearms and it could make all the difference, even if it bought time for others to escape or another person to take him out.
 
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rc51stierhoff

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It’s sad in so many levels. Time will tell…funny how the emotions of the gun grabbers are literally triggered. Funny how facts always seem to confuse the situation. Seems like a lot of the grabbers are part of the depop crowd too…that’s interesting. Incredible response time from the folks that trip over each other running to the mic to blame those evil inanimate objects…that’s always interesting (normally same folks that lie to us on just about every other subject) Seems like some peculiar details are starting to drip out…time will tell but a few things certainly raise the eyebrows, unless blinded by irrational group think. I wonder we will ever find out? Anyone remember what happened with Vegas incident without looking up? 🥃
 

Bmyers

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It’s sad in so many levels. Time will tell…funny how the emotions of the gun grabbers are literally triggered. Funny how facts always seem to confuse the situation. Seems like a lot of the grabbers are part of the depop crowd too…that’s interesting. Incredible response time from the folks that trip over each other running to the mic to blame those evil inanimate objects…that’s always interesting (normally same folks that lie to us on just about every other subject) Seems like some peculiar details are starting to drip out…time will tell but a few things certainly raise the eyebrows, unless blinded by irrational group think. I wonder we will ever find out? Anyone remember what happened with Vegas incident without looking up? 🥃
I'll be honest, I don't remember much except the big push to ban bump stocks that came afterwards.

The vague details that come to mind is an individual in a hotel room (an older man if I remember correctly) shooting down on a crowd of people. I don't remember how the shooter was discovered, if someone seen where the shots were coming from or if someone in the hotel heard the shots.

I believe the police delayed for quite a while before they went in to stop/investigate the hotel room, with the reports later coming out that the shooter had killed himself.

I don't remember ever hearing any rationale (not that there could be, but such thing as political, religious, fired work, etc.) for the attack. I think the final report was that the old man just decided to shot everyone. No other history of any issues that I remember.

I could be wrong though with some of my details.
 

Daren Todd

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Very good questions. Hopefully answers to these and other questions come out in the investigation.
Why did the cops stand down when there was an active shooter in the school? The cops latest reason is that the gunman was barricaded and not so much a threat.
The top cop admitted that some cops went in to get their own kids out. If there was minimal danger, why did they do that?
Parkland, Fla cops were fired for cowardice.
From what I saw yesterday, the provisions taken to protect the students and keep the riffraff out also made it difficult for the police to get in.
 

DaveFromMi

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From what I saw yesterday, the provisions taken to protect the students and keep the riffraff out also made it difficult for the police to get in.
Actually, a school door was left propped open so the shooter walked right in. This was after he was shooting at a funeral home crowd across the street. Add another item to investigate.
Mental illness is obvious.
 

Clevus

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For those who say it’s a fools errand to go up against an AR with a handgun, if I’m going to get shot at anyway, I would give it a try.
here is a story in the news today

As far as arming teachers, let those teacher who carry anyway, carry at work.
 

coast40

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Very good questions. Hopefully answers to these and other questions come out in the investigation.
Why did the cops stand down when there was an active shooter in the school? The cops latest reason is that the gunman was barricaded and not so much a threat.
The top cop admitted that some cops went in to get their own kids out. If there was minimal danger, why did they do that?
Parkland, Fla cops were fired for cowardice.
I was under the impression the pickup belonged to his grandmother he killed. I could be wrong.
I wasn't a fan of ARs until the Oregon govt. didn't want anyone to own any, or 30 round mags. Tell me I can't have one, and like a child........