Diagnosing L245 not cranking

[Pete Puma]

Update: Time and weather finally cooperated and I put a new battery on it. Load test on the old battery showed 400 CCA (rated for 700). New battery is rated for 850 CCA and charged to a bit over 13v.

No change. The oil light comes on brightly and dims when I preheat the glow plugs or try to crank the starter, but nothing else happens.

Also, I had a hard time getting the ignition switch (which is upstream of the separate starter/glow plug switch) to turn off. The oil light stayed on until I'd turned it off multiple times, so I disconnected the ground at the battery in case there's a leak in the switch but the old battery was keeping its charge so I think when it's off it's actually off.

Wasn't time to do any more troubleshooting before losing the sun but hopefully I'll get out with the multitester tomorrow and see if I'm still only getting ~8v at the starter solenoid, then work back up the circuit.

+++++++++
I thought I had charging problems and was working around them by jumping my L245 every time I fired it up, but that's quit working. Now when I turn the starter switch to the start side I see the oil light dim slightly showing there's a draw, but the starter solenoid doesn't even click.

I've been out testing stuff today. The battery is charged to 12.38 volts. When I turn on the key I'm measuring about 10.5 volts on both sides of the fuses but that was with a kind of iffy ground. (Also, the wiring diagram I have for this thing shows a three fuse block but I've got four and they all have current running through them so that's special). The clutch safety switch is long gone, removed by a previous owner.

Unless I'm missing something I can't get to the back of the starter switch without pulling the steering wheel and dash. Before getting into that I measured the voltage at the solenoid post-starter switch and found it's 8.3-something. So the switch and/or wire are definite suspects. Oddly, I can feel a couple unconnected connectors coming off the switch but since the glow plugs and starter have worked right in the past and there's nothing else that should be connected there I'm assuming they aren't OEM.

My next test was to jump the solenoid directly to the + terminal to see what happens. A little spark tells me I'm completing the circuit, but nothing happens at the solenoid. No click, no crank.

So now I'm confused. It seems like if the switch is only passing it 8ish volts that would explain the solenoid not closing, but since it didn't close when I gave it a presumed 12 volts that suggests the solenoid is bad. I suppose it could be both, with the switch slowly failing but working just enough to start it when I gave it a jump and then the solenoid failing suddenly.

Am I missing something obvious that would help me narrow this down without tearing into things that don't need to be torn into?

 

[Vlach7]

Bad battery needs to show 12.7 volts. Have it tested at an auto parts store and make sure it is fully charged.

 

[Pete Puma]

Bad battery needs to show 12.7 volts. Have it tested at an auto parts store and make sure it is fully charged.

Oops. That was a typo. I meant to write 12.83 volts.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I thought I had charging problems and was working around them by jumping my L245 every time I fired it up, but that's quit working. Now when I turn the starter switch to the start side I see the oil light dim slightly showing there's a draw, but the starter solenoid doesn't even click.

I've been out testing stuff today. The battery is charged to 12.38 volts. When I turn on the key I'm measuring about 10.5 volts on both sides of the fuses but that was with a kind of iffy ground. (Also, the wiring diagram I have for this thing shows a three fuse block but I've got four and they all have current running through them so that's special). The clutch safety switch is long gone, removed by a previous owner.

Unless I'm missing something I can't get to the back of the starter switch without pulling the steering wheel and dash. Before getting into that I measured the voltage at the solenoid post-starter switch and found it's 8.3-something. So the switch and/or wire are definite suspects. Oddly, I can feel a couple unconnected connectors coming off the switch but since the glow plugs and starter have worked right in the past and there's nothing else that should be connected there I'm assuming they aren't OEM.

My next test was to jump the solenoid directly to the + terminal to see what happens. A little spark tells me I'm completing the circuit, but nothing happens at the solenoid. No click, no crank.

So now I'm confused. It seems like if the switch is only passing it 8ish volts that would explain the solenoid not closing, but since it didn't close when I gave it a presumed 12 volts that suggests the solenoid is bad. I suppose it could be both, with the switch slowly failing but working just enough to start it when I gave it a jump and then the solenoid failing suddenly.

Am I missing something obvious that would help me narrow this down without tearing into things that don't need to be torn into?

Likely a bad battery or ground.

Dan

 

[Russell King]

There is a wiring diagram in this thread in post #26

Electrical - Wiring Diagrams

Hi I'm looking for a wiring diagram for a B2150. Big thanks in advance if anyone can share.

www.orangetractortalks.com

The wiring for the starter circuit is pretty straightforward as you probably know. I assume that the clutch is being pushed or the transmission and PTO are both in neutral so you are not trying to provide power through the transmission by the starter motor. But you can verify that.

Are you using the decompression knob when you are trying the starter? There is very little load when the decompression knob is used so that would at least verify that the starter is being properly powered and can at least spin.

I would suspect that the stater motor and solenoid are bad since you got nothing from them when you provided power directly to them. The cables and connections are also very suspect since it is an old tractor. If I were in your shoes I would probably start the parts cannon up and start replacing these parts in the following order:
1) Battery cables (because they are probably old and new ones are not expensive)
2) Starter (you might look for a replacement that is a gear reduction style)
3) Battery (if yours tests bad or is old)
4) Start switch (probably not the problem)
4) Clutch switch (to restore the single safety switch on the tractor)

Good luck

 

[Pete Puma]

There is a wiring diagram in this thread in post #26

Electrical - Wiring Diagrams

Hi I'm looking for a wiring diagram for a B2150. Big thanks in advance if anyone can share.

www.orangetractortalks.com

The wiring for the starter circuit is pretty straightforward as you probably know. I assume that the clutch is being pushed or the transmission and PTO are both in neutral so you are not trying to provide power through the transmission by the starter motor. But you can verify that.

Are you using the decompression knob when you are trying the starter? There is very little load when the decompression knob is used so that would at least verify that the starter is being properly powered and can at least spin.

I would suspect that the stater motor and solenoid are bad since you got nothing from them when you provided power directly to them. The cables and connections are also very suspect since it is an old tractor. If I were in your shoes I would probably start the parts cannon up and start replacing these parts in the following order:
1) Battery cables (because they are probably old and new ones are not expensive)
2) Starter (you might look for a replacement that is a gear reduction style)
3) Battery (if yours tests bad or is old)
4) Start switch (probably not the problem)
4) Clutch switch (to restore the single safety switch on the tractor)

Good luck

Thanks. The L245 wiring diagram in that thread is the same one I have in the original owner's manual and also found in the service manual PDF I got online. It is dead simple (a '67 MGB might be slightly simpler), but there is that oddity of the four fuse block where the diagram shows three. I don't think the diagram is wrong but that someone probably did some sort of frankenwiring, maybe for a since-removed accessory. At any rate, it shouldn't affect the starter.

The decompression cable is frozen and the decompression lever is really hard to move but I did move it by clamping Vise-Grips on to it and that didn't make a difference. I haven't looked into how it works so for all I know the lever moved without actually opening the valves.

I could be wrong but I really don't think the battery is the primary culprit. Although I was jumping it to cold start it, once it was warmed up I could restart it off the battery. Then suddenly I could no longer jump it at all. But before going parts crazy I will take the battery in to get it tested and if it's bad I'll replace it. It came with the tractor and I haven't looked for a date on it yet.

And yeah, the solenoid not even clicking when I fed it pure 12.83 volts seems pretty suspect (not 12.38 as I first wrote — that was a typo).

At least this happened right after I parked it under the carport it helped me put up so it's not just stuck out in the field for the winter. I'll keep poking at it between more pressing projects and hopefully have it running again by spring.

 

[TheOldHokie]

And yeah, the solenoid not even clicking when I fed it pure 12.83 volts seems pretty suspect (not 12.38 as I first wrote — that was a typo).
.

You can measure 12.85 volts througb a bad ground but under load it wont conduct enough amps to even tickle that solenoid.

Dan

 

[Pete Puma]

You can measure 12.85 volts througb a bad ground but under load it wont conduct enough amps to even tickle that solenoid.

Dan

I don't have any reason to think the ground would have suddenly gone bad literally overnight. If you're thinking of when I wrote "iffy ground" above that was just the multi-meter which I was grounding by touching it to an exposed screw on the dash because I don't have leads with alligator clips and was playing a game of Twister to make two contacts.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I don't have any reason to think the ground would have suddenly gone bad literally overnight. If you're thinking of when I wrote "iffy ground" above that was just the multi-meter which I was grounding by touching it to an exposed screw on the dash because I don't have leads with alligator clips and was playing a game of Twister to make two contacts.

Neither do solenoids. I suspect you hsve a combination of bad battery, questionable connections, and no decompression which over time has finally reached the breaking point.

 

[Bee-Positive]

Bought one of these from Horror Freight. Not the most high tech tool in my box but it works really well for what I paid.

https://www.harborfreight.com/100-amp-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html

 

[Russell King]

There are 4 fuse spots on my L185 and I know that two fuses are connected together on one side (power in). Then one of those two is used to power an accessory that you probably don’t have (work light)

For the loose wires you may have felt under the dash, I know that the there were a couple of accessories that were in the wiring harness but not used unless they got added like work lights, flasher, turn signals, flasher unit, rear position lights on the fenders.

For the decompression knob, you can get the knob/cable from a dealer. You might be able to use a choke cable from some older engine but the inner part of the Kubota is more like twisted wire than single strand. At the front of the engine on the front of the valve cover is a lever that is spring loaded to pull the cable back into run position. That lever runs into the valve cover and actually pushes the (exhaust) valve slightly open when you pull the knob on the dash. The lever often gets “sticky” and needs some corrosion correction attention and lubrication. I suggest you eventually get it working for when you eventually run out of fuel and need to bleed the injectors. Makes it much faster and also easier on the starter (so it doesn’t get too hot).

It also can make the engine start easily in cold or when the battery is low.

One other thing to point out on the wiring diagram is that the glow plugs are in parallel not in series as the diagram shows. They all get grounded at the plug case where it screws into the block.

 

[Pete Puma]

There are 4 fuse spots on my L185 and I know that two fuses are connected together on one side (power in). Then one of those two is used to power an accessory that you probably don’t have (work light)

For the loose wires you may have felt under the dash, I know that the there were a couple of accessories that were in the wiring harness but not used unless they got added like work lights, flasher, turn signals, flasher unit, rear position lights on the fenders.

For the decompression knob, you can get the knob/cable from a dealer. You might be able to use a choke cable from some older engine but the inner part of the Kubota is more like twisted wire than single strand. At the front of the engine on the front of the valve cover is a lever that is spring loaded to pull the cable back into run position. That lever runs into the valve cover and actually pushes the (exhaust) valve slightly open when you pull the knob on the dash. The lever often gets “sticky” and needs some corrosion correction attention and lubrication. I suggest you eventually get it working for when you eventually run out of fuel and need to bleed the injectors. Makes it much faster and also easier on the starter (so it doesn’t get too hot).

It also can make the engine start easily in cold or when the battery is low.

One other thing to point out on the wiring diagram is that the glow plugs are in parallel not in series as the diagram shows. They all get grounded at the plug case where it screws into the block.

Thanks again. I just noticed the owner's manual has a photo of four fuses in the block even though the wiring diagram only shows three so I guess it is how it came.

I have run out of fuel and bled the system at the filter and injection pump to prime it. Since it's gravity fed I'd still have to do this even if the decompression knob was working, right? It would be good to have it as I've definitely cranked it longer than I'd like a few times already.

Looking at the glow plugs they are all connected to each other by jumpers, so that looks very much to me like they are in series. Maybe they did it differently for the two cylinder?

 

[D2Cat]

Thanks again. I just noticed the owner's manual has a photo of four fuses in the block even though the wiring diagram only shows three so I guess it is how it came.

I have run out of fuel and bled the system at the filter and injection pump to prime it. Since it's gravity fed I'd still have to do this even if the decompression knob was working, right? It would be good to have it as I've definitely cranked it longer than I'd like a few times already.

Looking at the glow plugs they are all connected to each other by jumpers, so that looks very much to me like they are in series. Maybe they did it differently for the two cylinder?

You mention, "It would be good to have it as I've definitely cranked it longer than I'd like a few times already." You should not crank the starter longer then 15-20 seconds before taking a break for a full minute or more. This will help keep the stater from overheating. Then you'd have another problem! When trying to bleed air from the fuel lines patience is a necessity.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Looking at the glow plugs they are all connected to each other by jumpers, so that looks very much to me like they are in series. Maybe they did it differently for the two cylinder?

The glow plugs on your tractor are wired in parallel.

Dan

 

[Russell King]

I have run out of fuel and bled the system at the filter and injection pump to prime it. Since it's gravity fed I'd still have to do this even if the decompression knob was working, right? It would be good to have it as I've definitely cranked it longer than I'd like a few times already.

Looking at the glow plugs they are all connected to each other by jumpers, so that looks very much to me like they are in series. Maybe they did it differently for the two cylinder?

FIRST STEP OF BLEEDING INJECTORS
Yes on the bleed process, first gravity will bleed it through the filter and to the injection pump when you open the bleed screw on the injection pump.
SECOND STEP OF BLEEDING INJECTORS
But you will probably also need to bleed the lines by loosening the fuel line nuts at the injectors. The engine will have to be spun to drive the injection pump on these older tractors with mechanical injection pumps. So the starter will be under load while cranking the engine with compression and it will get hot and can destroy itself if not allowed to cool (which does take a lot of time. To lighten the starter load it is recommended that the decompression knob be pulled oit so there is no compression in any cylinder. Also put the hand throttle to maximum RPM position so that fuel flows as much as possible through the injection pump to the injector, forcing out the air more rapidly. Get all the bubbles out of one line and tighten the nut on that line. Then work on the other injector lines. On my tractor it can often fire off on one cylinder (since it only has two total) so I try to start it sometimes and then bleed the other injector using the engine driving the pump.
MY FINAL STEP
When the engine is running and all cylinders seem to be firing I then open each injection line one at a time (carefully keeping hands protected from higher pressure fuel with rubber gloves) and let it purge any remaining air out of the line and see if the engine speed is effected to be sure that cylinder is actually firing properly. Probably not necessary but that is just what I do!

 

[Russell King]

Looking at the glow plugs they are all connected to each other by jumpers, so that looks very much to me like they are in series. Maybe they did it differently for the two cylinder?

The tops are connected to positive power (red highlights) by the jumpers but the bottoms are connected to ground through the block (black highlights)

See the diagrams below and convince yourself they are in parallel (green diagram), not series (yellow diagram)! Ask more questions if you can’t see them in parallel.

 

[Pete Puma]

The tops are connected to positive power (red highlights) by the jumpers but the bottoms are connected to ground through the block (black highlights)

See the diagrams below and convince yourself they are in parallel (green diagram), not series (yellow diagram)! Ask more questions if you can’t see them in parallel.

View attachment 165518

Oh yeah. Duh. I wasn't thinking about the ground and was just focusing on the positive wiring. Too many years dealing with A/V signal flow instead of vehicle electrics have rotted my brain.