Another Heavy Safe Move......Maybe

[bird dogger]

My Locksmith buddy has had this heavy double safe in storage for years. It was time to get it out of storage and try to get it open. He bought it at a government surplus sale years ago with no known combination. The story had it being moved between two different AirForce bases by a disgruntled serviceman truck driver who threw the combo away. LOL! No one knows what’s in it or why the real combo wasn’t recorded and retrievable.

The structure is 1” solid steel throughout and weighs 2052 lbs according to the freight sticker on it. It was recently delivered to my place and unloaded by a large skidster with forks and placed inside my storage building, which had room at the time.


With winter here, it would be nice to have this in the heated shop so we can work on cracking the combination of the two locks. If left in the cold storage shed, I’m afraid the locks would be too stiff to decipher anything. But how to move the beast without hiring a wrecker!??! And it’s only about 100 ft. away from my heated shop.

I noticed my carry-all framework fit nicely around the mobile base we made for the safe to roll on. Maybe something could be added to the carry-all to roll the safe onto? In the metal parts storage, there sat a nice thick former steel door panel. It was a perfect fit between the carry-all arms. With one end lip cut off (to allow the safe to roll up onto it) it was welded to the framework while protruding just below the bottom of the arms.


With the safe rolled up onto and secured to the front of the carry-all, it will (I hope) just be pulled along like a stone boat…..not lifted off the ground by my B2650. While loaded….if it will slide on the concrete floor then it should easily slide on a snow packed gravel drive with some careful pulling. We shall see.

Presently waiting for the white lubrication material to arrive and cover the gravel drive between the two buildings.

(the wife wasn't pleased with my suggestion to use her father's vintage childhood ash tobbaggan for the move!)

It will be fun to open the safe to see what’s inside. Maybe some top secret paperwork?? ….or a complete let down like Geraldo Rivera’s opening of the Al Capone safe a long time ago!

 

[skeets]

Keep us posed! Years ago when I worked for the USBM, in DaBurgh, I found all kinds of neat spaces and things long forgotten, one of which was a safe, a big assed safe, in a place that had been walled off for years. It turned out this was a pistol range and the USBM had a pistol team with weapons supplied by the US Army. OH BABY , and like bird doggers safe the combination was long time lost. Now I knew a couple firearms enthusiasts working there that were in the upper circle of management. Now the story went this safe is where the pistols were kept, Colt Woodsman .22s, and there was suppose to be 8 of them. The big day came and a group of miscreants and the lock smith were gathered around the safe, to partake of its plunder. CLICK,,, and the big revile,, NADA, nuttin, empty,, dayum !!!!! I went back to my lab and sobbed the rest of the afternoon

 

[bird dogger]

Keep us posed! Years ago when I worked for the USBM, in DaBurgh, I found all kinds of neat spaces and things long forgotten, one of which was a safe, a big assed safe, in a place that had been walled off for years. It turned out this was a pistol range and the USBM had a pistol team with weapons supplied by the US Army. OH BABY , and like bird doggers safe the combination was long time lost. Now I knew a couple firearms enthusiasts working there that were in the upper circle of management. Now the story went this safe is where the pistols were kept, Colt Woodsman .22s, and there was suppose to be 8 of them. The big day came and a group of miscreants and the lock smith were gathered around the safe, to partake of its plunder. CLICK,,, and the big revile,, NADA, nuttin, empty,, dayum !!!!! I went back to my lab and sobbed the rest of the afternoon

I'm guessing this "reveal" will be similar to yours. I'll take some pics and post them. Hopefully the short move will go well and the safe stays upright. Would be no fun if we have to lay down on our side to do all the safecracking outdoors in the dead of winter!!

Those Colt Woodsman pistols are really nice!! I have an older friend who has one and threatens to leave it to me in his will.

 

[Elliott in GA]

It sounds like a great adventure. However unless the 100 feet of gravel is very smooth/level/compacted, you do run a risk of the safe falling over, and it might damage your three point hardware in the process. Since the three point system has no down pressure, there is nothing to resist the safe falling over (other than the weight of the safe itself on its base). You might want to consider laying the safe on its side for the move. Your tractor has enough capacity to lay it down and lift it up to standing; you need approximately 1000 lbs. lift.

Of course if it were me, I would just drill the S&G (presumed brand) locks and replacement with new and/or digital locks. Really old S&G locks can perform flawlessly or they can fail completely. I had one that allowed me to change the combination, and then it would function properly 2-3 times. Afterwards, the combination would no longer work. Changed it again and again with the same result. Fortunately, each time I tested the lock with the drawer open (having the actual users unlock it prior to closing it).

 

[arml]

Sometimes luck is with us....got this opened two years ago.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Cool project man!

Take it nice and slow though. That's a butt load of weight, especially that high.

I wonder if some sort of "anti-tipping" device would make it a little easier in case it gets a little "squirrely"



Take pics too!

 

[bird dogger]

It sounds like a great adventure. However unless the 100 feet of gravel is very smooth/level/compacted, you do run a risk of the safe falling over, and it might damage your three point hardware in the process. Since the three point system has no down pressure, there is nothing to resist the safe falling over (other than the weight of the safe itself on its base). You might want to consider laying the safe on its side for the move. Your tractor has enough capacity to lay it down and lift it up to standing; you need approximately 1000 lbs. lift.

Of course if it were me, I would just drill the S&G (presumed brand) locks and replacement with new and/or digital locks. Really old S&G locks can perform flawlessly or they can fail completely. I had one that allowed me to change the combination, and then it would function properly 2-3 times. Afterwards, the combination would no longer work. Changed it again and again with the same result. Fortunately, each time I tested the lock with the drawer open (having the actual users unlock it prior to closing it).

All good points that I had been thinking about. Yes, I keep my gravel area in front of the buildings flat as a pancake with a land plane. There should be very little chance of the safe going over center of gravity and tipping (famous last words! LOL). Plus, I'll have a couple of friends walk alongside to watch for unknowns.

Hooking it up to the 3pt does concern me. At first, I'll just try pulling it with a short chain on the concrete floo to see how easy it moves. Only if it moves easily would I dare hook it up to the 3pt and then only if necessary. If it moves easily, and with the front overhung portion of the safe forward, I may be able to use the roll bars as a strapping point for the top of the safe. Again, only if necessary.

We could get the safe on its side for the move and even stand it up again. But I'd have no way to lift it for clearance to put the rolling cart underneath again. A must have! That's the reason for moving it upright on its cart.

Here's a pic of the lock's dial:
No hint of manufacture. I agree, though, most likely Sargent Greenleaf lock

But there's no hint of how the lock body is mounted....vertical up? vertical down? horizontal right/left??
No hint of anything inside pertaining to the actual locking mechanism locations. Is there hardened plates between the lock body and door? and then how far back inside is the actual lock body itself.
Too many unknowns yet, to consider drilling first. I think our best bet is to try cracking the combo first as I believe the locks are both just a class 2 lock. Plus, it'll be a lot less work and sweat than drilling through all that steel maybe multiple times. Well, hopefully!! And more bragging rights when successful.

Playing with combination locks has been a hobby for years. When the digital locks first came out many years ago, people were changing out their mechanical locks for them. I was buying high end Class 1r mechanical dial locks for pennies on the dollar. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore as people are finding out their digital locks are at least as prone to failure....if not more. (because of no regular maintenance and failure to replace the battery before it dies. LOL!)

No. 1 son is a Civil Engineer. I made a College/CE themed safe for him and put a high end x-ray proof dial lock in it that I maybe had $20 into it at the time (today's price around $700 for that lock). I think he keeps his video games in it and maybe his passport. That was about 5-6 yrs. ago, time to pull some maintenance on that lock again and teach him how to do it himself!!

 

[Elliott in GA]

All good points that I had been thinking about. Yes, I keep my gravel area in front of the buildings flat as a pancake with a land plane. There should be very little chance of the safe going over center of gravity and tipping (famous last words! LOL). Plus, I'll have a couple of friends walk alongside to watch for unknowns.

Hooking it up to the 3pt does concern me. At first, I'll just try pulling it with a short chain on the concrete floo to see how easy it moves. Only if it moves easily would I dare hook it up to the 3pt and then only if necessary. If it moves easily, and with the front overhung portion of the safe forward, I may be able to use the roll bars as a strapping point for the top of the safe. Again, only if necessary.

We could get the safe on its side for the move and even stand it up again. But I'd have no way to lift it for clearance to put the rolling cart underneath again. A must have! That's the reason for moving it upright on its cart.

Here's a pic of the lock's dial:
View attachment 117570 No hint of manufacture. I agree, though, most likely Sargent Greenleaf lock

But there's no hint of how the lock body is mounted....vertical up? vertical down? horizontal right/left??
No hint of anything inside pertaining to the actual locking mechanism locations. Is there hardened plates between the lock body and door? and then how far back inside is the actual lock body itself.
Too many unknowns yet, to consider drilling first. I think our best bet is to try cracking the combo first as I believe the locks are both just a class 2 lock. Plus, it'll be a lot less work and sweat than drilling through all that steel maybe multiple times. Well, hopefully!! And more bragging rights when successful.

Playing with combination locks has been a hobby for years. When the digital locks first came out many years ago, people were changing out their mechanical locks for them. I was buying high end Class 1r mechanical dial locks for pennies on the dollar. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore as people are finding out their digital locks are at least as prone to failure....if not more. (because of no regular maintenance and failure to replace the battery before it dies. LOL!)

No. 1 son is a Civil Engineer. I made a College/CE themed safe for him and put a high end x-ray proof dial lock in it that I maybe had $20 into it at the time (today's price around $700 for that lock). I think he keeps his video games in it and maybe his passport. That was about 5-6 yrs. ago, time to pull some maintenance on that lock again and teach him how to do it himself!!

FWIW, the dial looks like a La Gard. I never liked working on them.

LG3330 3-Wheel Lock w/ LG1777 Dial & Ring, Front Reading, Satin Chrome

MBA USA, Inc. is a premier distributor of high-security safe locks, electronic and mechanical locking systems, and specialized security hardware for residential, commercial, and government applications. Trusted by locksmiths, safe technicians, military personnel, and security professionals...

mbausa.com

Also as a final suggestion, I would heavy duty ratchet strap two 2x4s vertically on each side of the safe. I would then build a skid protruding a couple of feet out each side and longer than the height of the safe. As this assembly would be connected to the top of the safe, 2x4s would at least give you some extra protection from tipping (they do not have to support much weight).

Good luck with the move and the locks.

 

[bird dogger]

FWIW, the dial looks like a La Gard. I never liked working on them.

LG3330 3-Wheel Lock w/ LG1777 Dial & Ring, Front Reading, Satin Chrome

MBA USA, Inc. is a premier distributor of high-security safe locks, electronic and mechanical locking systems, and specialized security hardware for residential, commercial, and government applications. Trusted by locksmiths, safe technicians, military personnel, and security professionals...

mbausa.com

Also as a final suggestion, I would heavy duty ratchet strap two 2x4s vertically on each side of the safe. I would then build a skid protruding a couple of feet out each side and longer than the height of the safe. As this assembly would be connected to the top of the safe, 2x4s would at least give you some extra protection from tipping (they do not have to support much weight).

Good luck with the move and the locks.

I think you're right about the LaGard look. the dial/ring look identical. We're not sure how old this safe actually is. From the AirForce paperwork stuck on the side it looks like it might have been readied for shipment back in '96, some 25+ yrs ago. Been in storage a long time apparently!

The LaGards seem to be a cheap version of the S&G. This one is well worn. At least the front dial must have undergone a lot of spinning.....the bushing is very sloppy! I'm sure the new owner is going to want a nice S&G lock or two for replacements.

I do have a neat idea for some top "safety" bracing involving a couple of 2x4s. Trying to keep things as simple as possible. Moving day possibly sometime next week.......snow or no snow for skid lube.

 

[CGMKCM]

Prior to an unfortunate boating accident, I had a mint Colt Woodsman Match Target.

 

[bird dogger]

Today, I thought I'd see how hard it would be to get the safe rolled up onto the 1/8" steel plate welded to the bottom of the carry-all framework. It wouldn't go up on by just pushing (had to try ) so a ratchet strap around the frame and cart was used to pull a little tension between the two. A little boost from a prybar on the back side and the safe popped right up onto the bottom plate. The same method to get the cart's back wheels on was used next. Then the whole shebang ratchet-strapped to the framework.

That went so slick, I had to hook up the B2650 to the carry-all to test my thoughts on some bracing in case the safe started to lean during the short trip to the other shop. Here's what it looks like with the lower link arms hooked up.

For some safety bracing, a couple of 2x6 boards clamped to the top and protruding forward between the Rops uprights should work slick. I could close the gap with a small wood block screwed to the ends on each side if necessary.


Bear in mind this is just a test setup. More strapping and clamps will be used for the actual move. But this looked so slick that I had to give it a very short test pull of a couple feet. Surprise, surprise,.....it hardly new the safe was back there. The terrain to be traversed is perfectly flat so no worries of the wood bracing causing any issues as if it were to cross a ditch or other slope.

It looks like it'll be an easy 5 minute move in low gear as soon as I can get a buddy over for an extra set of eyes and a burger/beer lunch afterwards.

Pretty sure the next pic will be of the safe in its "safe cracking school" location. Fingers Crossed!

 

[D2Cat]

Today, I thought I'd see how hard it would be to get the safe rolled up onto the 1/8" steel plate welded to the bottom of the carry-all framework. It wouldn't go up on by just pushing (had to try ) so a ratchet strap around the frame and cart was used to pull a little tension between the two. A little boost from a prybar on the back side and the safe popped right up onto the bottom plate. The same method to get the cart's back wheels on was used next. Then the whole shebang ratchet-strapped to the framework.
View attachment 117650
That went so slick, I had to hook up the B2650 to the carry-all to test my thoughts on some bracing in case the safe started to lean during the short trip to the other shop. Here's what it looks like with the lower link arms hooked up.
View attachment 117651
For some safety bracing, a couple of 2x6 boards clamped to the top and protruding forward between the Rops uprights should work slick. I could close the gap with a small wood block screwed to the ends on each side if necessary.
View attachment 117652 View attachment 117653

Bear in mind this is just a test setup. More strapping and clamps will be used for the actual move. But this looked so slick that I had to give it a very short test pull of a couple feet. Surprise, surprise,.....it hardly new the safe was back there. The terrain to be traversed is perfectly flat so no worries of the wood bracing causing any issues as if it were to cross a ditch or other slope.

It looks like it'll be an easy 5 minute move in low gear as soon as I can get a buddy over for an extra set of eyes and a burger/beer lunch afterwards.

Pretty sure the next pic will be of the safe in its "safe cracking school" location. Fingers Crossed!

Looks like you have it figured out! Aren't you a little on edge wondering what's unseen when something goes so easy?

 

[bird dogger]

Looks like you have it figured out! Aren't you a little on edge wondering what's unseen when something goes so easy?

Yes! Exactly!! That's why I thought it best to submit my ideas to the collective scrutiny of the experts on OTT. Was pretty sure something would get pointed out that I hadn't thought of or how I couldn't see the forest for the trees, so to speak. LOL!

The nice surprise was how easily it pulled on a just swept clean concret floor. I thought there'd be a lot more dead weight friction to contend with.

Maybe payback will be a booby trapped compartment with tear gas or a paint bomb of some sort when we do get the door open??? Finding this way to move the beast has been way too easy.....so far, anyway.

David

 

[D2Cat]

Yes! Exactly!! That's why I thought it best to submit my ideas to the collective scrutiny of the experts on OTT. Was pretty sure something would get pointed out that I hadn't thought of or how I couldn't see the forest for the trees, so to speak. LOL!

The nice surprise was how easily it pulled on a just swept clean concret floor. I thought there'd be a lot more dead weight friction to contend with.

Maybe payback will be a booby trapped compartment with tear gas or a paint bomb of some sort when we do get the door open??? Finding this way to move the beast has been way too easy.....so far, anyway.

David

Having some rental property a tenant moved out (several years back) and they left one of those plastic children's snow sled. Really just a heavy plastic oval shape with ridges on the side and a rope to pull with. I kept it in the storage shed and used it many times to move a window AC or other heavy appliance. I really worked and I still have it!

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Looks great man.

My only possible suggestion is to have some sort of "Fore and Aft" tipping protection. Maybe as simple as doing that "rops shim job" you were talking about, and clamping it to the rops bar itself?

 

[D2Cat]

He said he was putting wood block between there for the move, this was just a test setup!

 

[bird dogger]

The "move" went so quick and easy that there was no time for pics! It was done in less than a few minutes. It pulled so easily across the snow covered gravel that it might have been moved with a rope around the waist and a couple of ski poles. Well, maybe 20 yrs ago.... Here it now sits in a much warmer location:


Now for a couple of quiet days after the Holidays to start graphing the wheels and come up with a winning combination. The saga continues.....

 

[bird dogger]

Finally, an update on the heavy safe move and cracking the combinations!

It's hard to believe it’s been over 2 yrs since I moved this safe into the heated shop to work on. It’s sat unmolested mostly because the locksmith buddy and myself just couldn’t seem to find a common spare day to try crack the combos. Also, to our disadvantage, the locks are pretty worn and sticky which really made it tough to graph the numbers and the combination.

However, fast forward to recent days with the purchase of a mag drill for another project. Looking for a test subject to test it out on, we thought why not drill an inspection hole in one of the safe cavities to have a look inside with a borescope. When we were lucky to see a “Change Key” hole in the lock body, I knew we had a chance for success in opening these two vaults.


With the borescope taped to a steel rod, lined up closely to the change key hole, held in place with some welding magnets so we could view and dial numbers at the same time…..we were soon making headway.


It didn’t take but an hour or two to figure out how to compensate for the scopes misalignment looking at the change key hole (parallax). Dialing and noting the numbers on the change key index mark to align the 3 wheels up for the change key as viewed in the scope….gave us the proper combination.

The first try on the upper vault didn’t work for some reason. We thought a re-locker had been tripped due to the safe’s apparent tipping over at some point in its life (most likely during the shipping between AFBs).

Drilling and setting up for the bottom safe gave the same results at first. There seemed to be another mechanical stop to the handle even though we were fairly certain we had the proper combination. After a bunch of slapping the handle against the “stop” to try to discern the location of the issue (in case we needed to drill another inspection hole)…..all of a sudden, the handle moved to the full open position. The old lubrication grease had become so dry and solid that it wouldn’t allow the mechanisms to retract. The jarring of the handle finally broke things loose.

Back to the top vault and the same procedure had it open as well
.

The doors are 1.5 inches thick steel with another 1 inch plate where the lock mechanism mounts for a total of 2.5 inches. Those doors are heavy!


The top vault appears to be a collection vault where objects placed in it drop down into the lower vault on the other side. Maybe for night deposits, etc.

A couple of steel "plugs" turned to fit the drilled holes and welded in place will never be noticed after a little sanding and prepping for a final paint job.

Now the locksmith buddy will see if the one person who had stored it for years still wants it refurbished and new locks installed. If not, it may turn into a nice ammo on top and pistol vault on the bottom for me. We shall see.