I Have a question

[William1]

You must follow orders unless you have cause to believe those orders are unjust. Do you think your refusal would easily withstand a court marshal? Pretty clear line. You are in the military, you must follow orders or suffer the consequences, one way or another. Like a Lego on the floor, it sucks but its there.

 

[armylifer]

It is not sedition to remind soldiers that they have a moral AND a legal OBLIGATION to disobey unlawful orders, such as gunning down unarmed civilians.

However, the individual who made the noise about it was pressed on what unlawful orders have been given, and could not come up with any.

It was political grandstanding, and nothing more.

I note that when I served, my oath stated that I swore to obey all LAWFUL orders. I understand that word, "lawful" has been removed from the oath.

That should trouble all of us.

Here is the text of the oath of enl9istment. The only change that has been made since I took the oath for the first time in 1972 is the addition of (or affirm). Otherwise it is the same. The term LAWFUL orders was never in it.

"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

 

[Scm]

....according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice

"The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and the Manual for Courts-Martial (MCM) explicitly address the concept of "unlawful orders". The law emphasizes the duty to obey lawful orders, which implicitly creates a corresponding duty to disobey unlawful ones."

 

[jaxs]

From what I have seen, and continue to see is, a lot of regret from military survivers that finally realize they were duped into thinking they were fighting for a certain cause, only to realize much later once retired that the end game was a hoax and that they had put their life on the line for some other agenda. Also, the treatment of all the vets is absolutely terrible and a disgrace.

If you and I treat them right, at least they aren't mistreated by all people. For as long as history has been recorded there have been power seekers feeding propaganda to anyone willing to swallow it. News accounts about what,where and why military personnel are currently doing qualifies as propaganda.

Why should we even be discussing whether military personnel should (or should not) obey unlawful (illegal) orders? Seems like a “no brainer.”

Amazes me actually. How did we ever get to this point?

You aren't alone, it's disgraceful. Keep you chin up. Don't let them others or the mothers as you might prefer calling them, get you down.

 

[Mark_BX25D]

Here is the text of the oath of enl9istment. The only change that has been made since I took the oath for the first time in 1972 is the addition of (or affirm). Otherwise it is the same. The term LAWFUL orders was never in it.

Looks like we're both wrong! The "or affirm" was in it since 1776.

https://history.army.mil/Research/Reference-Topics/Oaths/

It would be interesting to find out what kind of training is currently being given on the subject of disobeying unlawful orders. I recall it being quite thoroughly emphasized that we were obligated to refuse unlawful orders. My Lai wasn't too far in the past when I went through BCT in 1974. It was very much part of our training as an example of what NOT to do.

 

[gbaker53]

If you and I treat them right, at least they aren't mistreated by all people. For as long as history has been recorded there have been power seekers feeding propaganda to anyone willing to swallow it. News accounts about what,where and why military personnel are currently doing qualifies as propaganda.


You aren't alone, it's disgraceful. Keep you chin up. Don't let them others or the mothers as you might prefer calling them, get you down.

I served our country with dignity, pride and respect for what we as Americans have fought and died for, for centuries! I was a United States Marine and rose to the rank of First Sergeant and was honored to have been selected for Sergeant Major but I decided it was time to retire and leave it to the younger generations. We all took the Oath to Support and Defend Our Nation Against Both Foreign and Domestic Enemies. Now think about that statement, Both Foreign and Domestic! We have some in our country who want to do more harm against our country than we have foreign adversaries who wish us harm! WE MUST NOT EVER FORGET THIS!
Now for your question about the UCMJ and the “disobedience to an order”, I have read that if and order is given by someone of higher authority than you, you can be referred to a Article 92 hearing and if the court decides you were justified in refusing to obey said orders, you would not be found guilty of the charges. But I have seen this very thing happen and you better be very careful and be prepared to defend yourself with SOLID FACTS or you will be punished to the fullest extent of the Code!

 

[jaxs]

I served our country with dignity, pride and respect for what we as Americans have fought and died for, for centuries! I was a United States Marine and rose to the rank of First Sergeant and was honored to have been selected for Sergeant Major but I decided it was time to retire and leave it to the younger generations. We all took the Oath to Support and Defend Our Nation Against Both Foreign and Domestic Enemies. Now think about that statement, Both Foreign and Domestic! We have some in our country who want to do more harm against our country than we have foreign adversaries who wish us harm! WE MUST NOT EVER FORGET THIS!
Now for your question about the UCMJ and the “disobedience to an order”, I have read that if and order is given by someone of higher authority than you, you can be referred to a Article 92 hearing and if the court decides you were justified in refusing to obey said orders, you would not be found guilty of the charges. But I have seen this very thing happen and you better be very careful and be prepared to defend yourself with SOLID FACTS or you will be punished to the fullest extent of the Code!

I believe every word of what you said and believe your words could offer comfort for some young solder if they are asking themselves at this moment what is the right thing to do if confronted with that decision. Other than those in this conversation who are active or might be called back, I think our conversation should revolve around the context and situation recently when this thing was floated. For