Hydraulic rear remote problem

Russell King

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L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
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Hose dash size indicates inner diameter of the hose.

Tube dash size indicates outer diameter of the tubr. The inner diameter varies with the wall thickness (pressure rating) of the tube.

As a rule of thumb for 3000 PSI tractor hydraulics a 3/8" hose (-06) is roughly equivalent to a 1/2" tube (-08).

A 3/8" hose is more than adequate on your 4 GPM tractor. You will gain nothing switching to bigger and bulkier hoses. FIrst thing to eliminate is that hard 180 degree turn created by using the end ports. Just move the fittings to the top ports and see.if it makes any difference.

My gut says it wont and your problem lies elsewhere. It would be nice to have a pump outlet pressure reading to see exactly how much back pressure the remotes are adding but the OEM plumbing does not make that easy. One thing for sure - your problem is not typical.

Dan
Thank you for the information.

Would putting the gauge into one of the extra ports on the pump pressure side be beneficial?
The gauge is on a tee with a -6 JIC swivel and the other side is -6 JIC male that I could use a cap on. So I can attach that to the front or top port before I move the hose to the valve pressure in on the valve. I think that I enough adapters to do that.

If you suspected something is plugging a hose or fitting and causing back pressure in the system, how would you go about getting that plug out? I will take all the fittings off and look for anything in the fitting and clean it up. But I don’t think I will ever be able to see through the hoses or be able to clean them. Is it possible to run a wire through the hose to pull a wiper through or is that just a dumb idea to try? In reality I don’t think anything would get lodged in the hose but may get caught up on the hose end fitting.
 

TheOldHokie

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Thank you for the information.

Would putting the gauge into one of the extra ports on the pump pressure side be beneficial?
The gauge is on a tee with a -6 JIC swivel and the other side is -6 JIC male that I could use a cap on. So I can attach that to the front or top port before I move the hose to the valve pressure in on the valve. I think that I enough adapters to do that.

If you suspected something is plugging a hose or fitting and causing back pressure in the system, how would you go about getting that plug out? I will take all the fittings off and look for anything in the fitting and clean it up. But I don’t think I will ever be able to see through the hoses or be able to clean them. Is it possible to run a wire through the hose to pull a wiper through or is that just a dumb idea to try? In reality I don’t think anything would get lodged in the hose but may get caught up on the hose end fitting.
You have alreadt measured pressure between pump outlet side of the block all the way to tank at zero. Nothing in that section of the power beyond circuit is causing any measurable back pressure.

You could repeat that test with a more sensitive (300 PSI) gauge but dont operate the valve or 3pt - you will likely overpressure and destroy the gauge.

As it stands there is no indication of any blockage or even minor obstruction of any sort in that part of the circuit. If there was you would see some indication on the gauge.

Dan
 

TheOldHokie

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Thank you for the information.

Would putting the gauge into one of the extra ports on the pump pressure side be beneficial?
The gauge is on a tee with a -6 JIC swivel and the other side is -6 JIC male that I could use a cap on. So I can attach that to the front or top port before I move the hose to the valve pressure in on the valve. I think that I enough adapters to do that.

If you suspected something is plugging a hose or fitting and causing back pressure in the system, how would you go about getting that plug out? I will take all the fittings off and look for anything in the fitting and clean it up. But I don’t think I will ever be able to see through the hoses or be able to clean them. Is it possible to run a wire through the hose to pull a wiper through or is that just a dumb idea to try? In reality I don’t think anything would get lodged in the hose but may get caught up on the hose end fitting.
After reading my last post a thought did cross my mind. That block is only 1" thick. I wonder if the plugs in the face ports screw in deep enough to partially obstruct the end and side ports. That is something I did not think to check and would be a design flaw on my part :mad: i will take a look at that in the AM

Dan
 

Russell King

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Equipment
L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
4,669
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Austin, Texas
After reading my last post a thought did cross my mind. That block is only 1" thick. I wonder if the plugs in the face ports screw in deep enough to partially obstruct the end and side ports. That is something I did not think to check and would be a design flaw on my part :mad: i will take a look at that in the AM

Dan
I believe that the tip of one plug is visible when looking into the side hole but not any significant obstruction that I recall. I will look into that when I go back to the original cover for testing.
 

TheOldHokie

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I believe that the tip of one plug is visible when looking into the side hole but not any significant obstruction that I recall. I will look into that when I go back to the original cover for testing.
I would be happier if that tip were not visible at all. There is not a lot of cross section to spare.

On the other hand your pressure test at the outlet port did not show any back pressure at the return port. Was it really zero? A few hundred pounds is hard to measure with a 5000 PSI gauge. A 300 PSI drop at each port is 600 PSI across the block and that might well cause problems.

Dan
 

Russell King

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L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
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Austin, Texas
I would be happier if that tip were not visible at all. There is not a lot of cross section to spare.

On the other hand your pressure test at the outlet port did not show any back pressure at the return port. Was it really zero? A few hundred pounds is hard to measure with a 5000 PSI gauge. A 300 PSI drop at each port is 600 PSI across the block and that might well cause problems.

Dan
You are correct about the lack of accuracy at small pressure on the 5000 PSI gauge. It will be a week from Monday before I can (easily) get a smaller range gauge.

I really don’t recall seeing the needle move at all but it could have been indicating a little pressure.
 

TheOldHokie

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You are correct about the lack of accuracy at small pressure on the 5000 PSI gauge. It will be a week from Monday before I can (easily) get a smaller range gauge.

I really don’t recall seeing the needle move at all but it could have been indicating a little pressure.
Move the hoses to the top (face) ports and you eliminate the issue entirely.

Dan
 

Russell King

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L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
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Well I believe that the issue is resolved!

The vendor of the rear cylinders provided the fittings to put into the cylinders. Those four fittings have an orifice diameter in them to slow the speed down of adjustment for the cylinders.

I thought I had kept track of them but obviously not very well! The 90 degree fitting on the left side of the picture above was one of those that should have been in the cylinder.

I was removing the fittings to check for blockages and found that fitting was indeed in the wrong location so moved it to the rear cylinder.

I have not used tractor yet but it seems to be much easier to start, it is quieter while running and there is no significant noise in the hose or rear valve now. I will probably use the tractor tomorrow to confirm that it is now working properly and doesn’t heat the oil so much. I ran it for about 10 minutes today and there was not any significant increase in temperature on the hydraulic pump or the pressure lines.
 
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TheOldHokie

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Well I believe that the issue is resolved!

The vendor of the rear cylinders provided the fittings to put into the cylinders. Those four fittings have an orifice diameter in them to slow the speed down of adjustment for the cylinders.

I thought I had kept track of them but obviously not very well! The 90 degree fitting on the left side of the picture above was one of those that should have been in the cylinder.

I was removing the fittings to check for blockages and found that fitting was indeed in the wrong location so moved it to the rear cylinder.

I have not used tractor yet but it seems to be much easier to start, it is quieter while running and there is no significant noise in the hose or rear valve now. I will probably use the tractor tomorrow to confirm that it is now working properly and doesn’t heat the oil so much. I ran it for about 10 minutes today and there was not any significant increase in temperature on the hydraulic pump or the pressure lines.
That would definitly generate a lot of back pressure and heat!!!! The orifice on those things is ~.050. Pump outlet pressure must have been sky high.

Dan
 

Nicksacco

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Kubota L35 TLB
Sep 15, 2021
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Bahama, NC
This was a very interesting thread to follow.

@Russell King Just to clarify for me - are you saying that the vendor supplied 90 deg fittings that were actually restrictors?

FYI, I've been looking into installing restrictors on my backhoe to slow down the boom (which would be mounted in the cylinder control lines.)
I ain't no expert running a backhoe and the controls on the BT900 are quite fast for a little control stick throw.

I saw these restrictors on the Tractor Time with Tim video.
 
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TheOldHokie

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This was a very interesting thread to follow.

@Russell King Just to clarify for me - are you saying that the vendor supplied 90 deg fittings that were actually restrictors?

FYI, I've been looking into installing restrictors on my backhoe to slow down the boom (which would be mounted in the cylinder control lines.)
I ain't no expert running a backhoe and the controls on the BT900 are quite fast for a little control stick throw.

I saw these restrictors on the Tractor Time with Tim video.
I suspect Russell got the restrictors from FitRite along with the valve and a TNT kit. Restrictors are fine in a cylinder circuit - never in the neutral circuit. Might not be a bad idea to paint them red .....

Dan
 

Russell King

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Equipment
L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
4,669
1,004
113
Austin, Texas
This was a very interesting thread to follow.

@Russell King Just to clarify for me - are you saying that the vendor supplied 90 deg fittings that were actually restrictors?

FYI, I've been looking into installing restrictors on my backhoe to slow down the boom (which would be mounted in the cylinder control lines.)
I ain't no expert running a backhoe and the controls on the BT900 are quite fast for a little control stick throw.

I saw these restrictors on the Tractor Time with Tim video.
The vendor was Fit Rite Hydraulics.
They supplied four total fittings with the restriction in each fitting. There were 2 straight and 2 90 degree fittings supplied. All of these fittings were supposed to be installed in the lines between the valve and the double acting cylinders (top and tilt), which have limited GPM flow through them.

The fittings were not marked or painted with any obvious markings. I assume they do have a part number stamped on them but I can’t see it with my old eyes. The straight fittings are easy to look through to see the bore, the 90 degree fittings are NOT easy to identify. Light will shine through the small holes but you have to work with a good amount of light and pay attention and have good eyes. I should have used something to mark them when I removed them from the bag that they were shipped and identified in.

I recall that I took them out of the bag and used them to conf what threads were in other locations. I know I bought fittings that were the same threads and shape without the restrictions in them. So I had fittings that were basically identical to the eye but with different holes for the fluid to flow through.

When I installed the fittings onto the cylinders and the tractor two 90 degree fittings were installed in incorrect locations. One with the small hole was installed in the line from the hydraulic pump output to the rear remote valve. The full flow of the pump (4-5 GPM) had to flow through the small hole so the pump was at a high pressure since it is a positive displacement gear pump. (I don’t have the formula handy but there is a formula that relates flow to pressure through an orifice and another that relates the pressure and flow to the horsepower required). That is something like a deadheaded pump (that can destroy the pump or something else in the line).

I know that you can order the fittings with the orifice hole from many vendors and your video named one of them. That fitting appears to be an additional fitting that was straight and selected to be easily installed on the end of a hose that has JIC female swivel ends. That should work in many places on many tractors but you need to know the correct size of the fitting and hose threads before you order the orifice part. What I have are actually directly into the cylinder and the hose connects directly to the fitting.

It will slow down the movement of the cylinder after a control valve. In that video I think the control valve (Summit?) on the first tractor (rear tilt) is an electrically controlled valve. That is either on or off like a light switch. That gives the operator very little control of the cylinder especially when the cylinder has little travel.
 
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TheOldHokie

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Thank you @Russell King . That's a lot of really good information!

Here are some restrictors I found for me (-8) if anyone else is interested.
It seems they have a pretty good selection.

Those might be a little hard to hook in. Look here for more possibilities:

Dan
 

Nicksacco

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Kubota L35 TLB
Sep 15, 2021
576
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63
Bahama, NC
Those might be a little hard to hook in. Look here for more possibilities:

Dan

Awesome! Thank you, Dan!
I note these are undrilled. Not being an expert, is there a formula or something that a person would use to determine what the drilled hole size should be?
Or
Do you start with "x" size and then try and repeat?
 
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Russell King

Well-known member

Equipment
L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
4,669
1,004
113
Austin, Texas
Awesome! Thank you, Dan!
I note these are undrilled. Not being an expert, is there a formula or something that a person would use to determine what the drilled hole size should be?
Or
Do you start with "x" size and then try and repeat?
Here is the calculation in full.

i would assume that most people just drill a small hole and work up to something that works.
 

Nicksacco

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Kubota L35 TLB
Sep 15, 2021
576
320
63
Bahama, NC
Here is the calculation in full.

i would assume that most people just drill a small hole and work up to something that works.
I appreciate that @Russell King !

I'll look into this soon and post some results about my experience once I start this portion of my project.

At the moment, Dan (@TheOldHokie ) is helping me with some machining work - new bushings, etc.
 

Russell King

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Equipment
L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Jun 17, 2012
4,669
1,004
113
Austin, Texas
Here is the final result for my tractor problem of overheating the hydraulic fluid:

Eliminating the fitting with the small hole resolved the issue completely!

I used the tractor for about the same time doing the same task (shredding) in a similar situation (grass not exactly the same) and I could easily touch any hydraulic metal surface and I could leave my hand on the surface for as long as I wanted to.


And for @TheOldHokie to answer the questions on the construction on the block he had previously produced for me. He had questions about the size of the internal passages after the plugs were installed. There is a slight protrusion of the plug on face (top) into the hole but it was an insignificant amount. I could see less than one full thread on the plug when looking through the hole on the long side of the block. I could not see any of the plug threads when looking through the hole on the face (top) with the plugs installed in both edge ports.

I hope that is clear enough to answer your concern. In short making the block slightly thicker would be an improvement but is not necessary.

And I am glad to hear you are doing well enough to be able to do some machining work again.