How do I remove G&G PTO guard?

[murky]

I wasn't sure whether to post this in implements or maintenance and repair.

A couple of weeks ago I bought a WW Grinder Super Apache chipper/grinder/shredder to use with my Kubota B8200HSD. It was used very little but allowed to sit in the elements. WW Grinder is long out of business, the chipper was probably made in the 80s.

The PTO shaft is frozen so that it won't telescope. I know there are lots of threads on how to try to separate the two halves, but they mostly start with the plastic shield removed.

With some effort I was able to get the implement end of the shaft removed from the chipper. It has an integrated shear bolt assembly on that end making it an unusual shaft.

I'd like to at least like to be able to release the bell shaped guard on the end of the shaft and slide it towards the middle so I can see the yoke and what is going on there.

The guard says G&G on the side.

Below I'll show a photo of the shaft. The second little picture shows the type of spring clip that seems to be use in the shaft. Do I just pull on it to slide the clip a bit to be out of the way? The third picture shows the through hole. The silver nuts and bolts were my make-do screw jack to push the PTO shaft off of the implement shaft stub.

I'm also curious what a replacement shaft would cost. The implement end has facing flanges that take a 1/4-20 shear bolt between them but still are connected against axial pull with the bolt out.

The male shaft stub on the implement measures about 1.18" OD with 1/4" keyway and a 5/16? through hole.

So I assume the pto shaft is smooth bore female 1-1/4" ID with 1/4" keyway and a 5/16 through hole.

 

[Russell King]

There is usually a easy way to get the plastic shield off. The difficulty is in figuring out the easy way.

It appears that the company is still existence. See this link:

http://www.ggmfg.com/Products/PTODrivelinesComponents/PartsDrawings.aspx

Here is a link to a similar looking shield that shows some useful information and how to remove the plastic shield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDxK0e9rA9E

There are some shields that require a tab to press down and then rotate the shield to remove it.

On mine there are a couple of screw heads that rotate eccentrically into alignment with a hole and then the shield pulls back.

The clip (right hand of picture) may just pull out of the plastic part and allow it to be removed.

 

[Stubbyie]

Had a brushhog with same setup. There was a E-clip type locking ring that had the middle prong of the E pointed up or backwards into and through a slot in the plastic covering. Used a screwdriver to depress the prong and the plastic slid right off.

If your shaft is seized and won't telescope the plastic may not come off until you get the shaft into two pieces.

For a stuck shaft I've soaked in oil---just squirt with a pump can and let it run down between the two pieces. Not a thread or precision fit so no need for penetrating oil. After a couple of days of squirting it every time I thought about it...

Chained one end to floor tiedown and used a come-along tied to truck hitch to gently pull the two pieces apart. It started slow and then popped loose once it started moving. Continued applying oil during pulling. Just be cautious.

I guess there's a risk involved of tearing something (U-joint?) up but on mine it all was pretty straightforward.

Once apart I brushed it well and cleaned it up and reassembled with good grease. Now telescopes just fine.

 

[murky]

Sorry for the delayed reply, was traveling out of the country.

Thanks for the replies. Russell, I've seen those links, the 2nd is for a different brand and style of PTO shaft cover. Mine doesn't have any plastic tabs or bits, the only parts visible are the the orange bells on each end, the orange tubes, and the 3 lobes of the snap ring which I presume are from a ring like the one in the tiny picture.

Stubby, I'll have to take another look when I get a chance and see about trying to get some oil in between the two pieces of the shaft. It just seems like a very indirect route to reach the seam between the two metal halves of the shaft.

I've never needed a driveline shop before, didn't even know they existed. After talking to a friend, I may just take it to Portland Driveline and see what they have to say. If it comes to replacing the U-joint on the implement end, I'll probably want them to do it. I don't have hours to spend on this.

Thanks again for the responses. If there are any other comments I'll read those too.

 

[murky]

Well, after over a week they say they can't get it apart. They want over $400 to put together a new shaft.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Murky, Big R sells PTO shafts that are much cheaper than that.
If you have one close to you try them. If not let me know and I'll go have a look for you and see if they have one that will work for your application.

 

[murky]

Murky, Big R sells PTO shafts that are much cheaper than that.
If you have one close to you try them. If not let me know and I'll go have a look for you and see if they have one that will work for your application.

That's kind of you, thanks. It looks like they don't have Big R around here. I'd never heard of them. We have Coastal and Wilco but what they have for tractors is very limited.

The problem with replacing the pto shaft is that the implement end is apparently pretty uncommon.

It is a smooth bore, either 1 3/16 or 1 1/4 ID (The OD of the implement stub measured about 1.18). There is a 1/4" keyway which I assume transmits the torque and a 5/16" through bolt which I assume holds things together axially.

Its shear bolt protected by a 1/4-20 bolt through the flanges visible in the picture.

If you, or anyone, can find a complete PTO shaft with those connections, or even a Yoke for the implement end that isn't too expensive and can be swapped onto an inexpensive PTO shaft I'd be much obliged.

I don't mind a different configuration for the shear protection as long as it offers similar protection and doesn't pose any more safety hazard.

 

[Burtonbr]

You've got more patience than I do.... I would have put the BFH on it a long time ago, then if that didn't free it up I know my torch would have...

Good luck with it...

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I was in Big R this morning and I think you might be in luck. Well I'll take a caliper with me and check the size a little later today. What length do you need? And what spline?

 

[murky]

I was in Big R this morning and I think you might be in luck. Well I'll take a caliper with me and check the size a little later today. What length do you need? And what spline?

If by spline you are talking about the tractor end, I think it is 6 spline 1-3/8 standard Kubota. It's a B8200 HSD.

Shortest length fully lifted 22 1/4” from end of tractor PTO stub to end of stub on chipper.
Longest length 25 3/4” from end of tractor PTO stub to end of stub on chipper with the chipper on the ground.

Thanks a bunch. I'm curious to hear what they have.

And to Burtonbr, yes I'm pretty patient and cautious. It helps that its been raining and I haven't had much time to spend on this the last few weeks.

Driveline of Portland initially thought they'd be able to free up my shaft and after having it for a week said they couldn't. I haven't yet asked them what they've tried or determined how serious they were about it. If it isn't oily when I get it back I'll know.

 

[murky]

Update; I got the shaft back. They had removed one of the snap rings so the bell guard was enough out of the way to see the end of the square shaft so at least I know where to add the penetrating oil.

I dosed it with aerokroil and hung it from a peg with a cinder block tied to the bottom for the better part of a day.

Then I got impatient and tied it to a stump and chained it to the tractor, put it in 4WD with the brush hog on and locked the differential and spun the tires. Then I left it tensioned for a few hours and gave another tug.

So far all I've done is crack the base of the bell a little bit because the shear clutch flanges get pulled to the side by the chain that is attached to the shaft/tube yoke side of the crosses (don't want to damage the implement yoke).

One of the chain links did break but the chain is wedged in the cross and didn't come out.

When I get a chance I'll put it between two stumps and use my 4000 lbf cheapo winch and see what gives.

In the meantime I bought a running used Mantis tiller for $80. The tines are stuck on the shaft (deja vus). I used liquid wrench (because the aerokroil was out back at the time) then aerokroil then more liquid wrench and I beat it with a hammer and worked it off.

That gave me more confidence in the advice to beat it with a hammer. But I'm still not ready to give up on trying to save the PTO shield.

 

[Stubbyie]

Please keep us all posted. Your problem with the stuck shaft is interesting. I'm real curious what you ultimately find.

When you finally get the rotating guard off the shaft please let us know how you did it. Which should also allow you to continue trying to get the pieces apart. Try heating the outer while tugging on it with a come-along (more control than a using a tractor). Sometimes a rosebud tip can do wonders.

Cautionary note: I've been told driveshaft material is somehow heat treated. Heating alone shouldn't ding it, but bringing it to a straw-yellow heat might somehow hurt it. Try staying at dull red as maximum heat.

For what it's worth: Last year at Co-Op for a 5-ft bushhog I gave $80 for one U-joint and its square shaft, all welded together, cut to proper length for telescoping (tractor snap-lok end and its U-joint was reuseable). Gives you some idea of possible replacement cost.

 

[BadDog]

Cautionary note: I've been told driveshaft material is somehow heat treated. Heating alone shouldn't ding it, but bringing it to a straw-yellow heat might somehow hurt it. Try staying at dull red as maximum heat.

I suspect the shaft is heat treated high carbon steel, otherwise it would gall, ding, and take a permanent bend easier. If so, your caution is correct, but the details are not. Heating to "straw" (as seen on clean polished surface in low light) is how you typically temper hardened carbon steel. Heating to "dull red" is well beyond the temper range and will likely effect the steel structure and properties, though how much depends on the alloy.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I did get to Big R and they have several complete PTO shafts in stock that would work for you.
Also all the parts to change it over if you need to do that.
I could help you get the right parts if you need to, just let me know.

 

[murky]

Thank you Wolfman,

It's very gracious of you to check those and to offer help. That is a beautiful display.

I see the smooth bore yoke with keyway you are holding. Presumably that would replace my yoke and shear clutch leaving me without shear protection. I suppose I could get some sort of shear yoke for the tractor end.

Also I think I need 1-3/16 ID on the yoke with a 1/4" keyway.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

That was only one of the multiple ends they had available.
When time comes I'll get you the run down on all the right parts and prices.
You might be able to just reuse your end on a new shaft assembly too.

 

[Stubbyie]

Thank you, BadDog, for your gracious response. I goofed and I'm pleased you corrected my misstatement. That's what happens when memories fade and the keyboard runs off on its own course. Thanks again.

 

[murky]

Please keep us all posted. Your problem with the stuck shaft is interesting. I'm real curious what you ultimately find.

When you finally get the rotating guard off the shaft please let us know how you did it. Which should also allow you to continue trying to get the pieces apart. Try heating the outer while tugging on it with a come-along (more control than a using a tractor). Sometimes a rosebud tip can do wonders.
...

Stubbyie, I'm fairly certain that the guard can't be removed intact without first separating the two halves of the shaft. What they did manage to do was release the bell from one end that covers the yoke so it could be slid a little bit away from the end of the shaft.

 

[murky]

That was only one of the multiple ends they had available.
When time comes I'll get you the run down on all the right parts and prices.
You might be able to just reuse your end on a new shaft assembly too.

Okay, I've cut off the orange shield and can see what I'm working with.

I've got the shaft hanging with a cinder block on it and plan to add penetrating oil and beat it with a hammer periodically.

In the meantime, I'm pretty sure the universal joint crosses match a Weasler series 6 with a 31/32" cap diameter and the internal C-clip (the cap has a groove to accept it on the inside, rather than on the end of the cap).

If I can't get it apart, ideally I'd find a Weasler series 6 driveline assembly with shield and tube and shaft yokes but no implement or tractor yoke for a good price. Then I could re-use my tractor and implement yokes.

The other option would be to buy a tube and yoke assembly, a shaft and yoke assembly, two cross kits, a bearing kit, and a shield. I'm assuming its more expensive to buy everything this way.

 

[murky]

Update Re: How do I remove G&G PTO guard?

I got it apart! Thank you Kroil.

I could tell I was making progress yesterday when penetrating oil started seeping out between the shaft and the slip sleeve while I banged it with a hammer. Before I started you couldn't tell that there was any seam between the two.

Today I spent 15 minutes or so banging on it wit the hammer while it hung with the cinder block pulling on it, until the wire that was holding it up broke and it crashed to the deck. With it laying there I beat it for another 5 minutes or so. It was a bit slippery with the oil that had seeped out so I began just cleaning it off some before I went inside to contemplate my next move.

While wiping it I lost my grip and dropped it. When I went to pick it up I though, that's odd, I was sure there was about an inch of shaft visible when I started but now there was almost none.

A few minutes later it was in two pieces!

Now I just need to buy a shield and bearing kit from a G&G distributor and make sure the shaft isn't too short for my tractor (not in that order). It's close. Because it this driveline uses a slip sleeve, I don't think I can simply cut the male and female ends shorter.

The U-joints still feel good, so hopefully I haven't damaged them and won't need to replace them.

Thank you to those who offered advice, and a special thank you to North Idaho Wolfman who went out of his way to check on parts for me and offered to help me get them.