Had a GREAT DAY

[MILESKellogs]

What a fun day I had. Fairly cool out this AM So I though I'll get the lawn mowed. So I jump on the 2120 and start mowing. About ½ way through I stopped to grab a small branch that had fallen. I forgot to shut the PTO on the tractor off so it shut the engine off when I raised up off the seat, Gotta love the safety features . So, I jump back on hit the key an nothing, nada, ZERO. Hmm, must've blown a fuse. I proceed to locate the hidden locations (can't put them where they're visible or accessible). All appear good.

So get the other tractor (B3200) and tow if up to the shop as its acting a bit strange with the warning lights sometimes coming and sometimes not. Get out the schematic and begin 5+ hours of chasing my tail. Battery Voltage is OK at 12.5. I proceed to chase the V to various relays and switches. After it sits for a couple of minutes everything is normal until one hits the glow plug warm up (diesel) or tries to start it. THERE WAS A CLUE THERE
I suspected something is causing a draw. There is a delay timer in the main power circuit that I'm still not quite sure what it's purpose is, but suspected it may be faulty due to the way the dash lights etc. are acting. It bench tests fine. However the voltages at the connector are acting a bit strange. SEE ABOVE . I begin disconnecting / bypassing thing looking for the DRAW. Eventually I get all the way to the starter. AH HA, if I disconnect the solenoid, all seem well. I try a remote switch on just the starter and NADA. Shorted solenoid? I scratch my a-s a bit more and start hooking some of the items back up and removing the bypasses. Things are good until I hook the glow plugs back up. Almost back to square on but not quite? Scratch a-s some more, smell fingers for good luck. Test all 3 glow plugs. They test fine. WT-O??? At this point I have tested about everything I can think of including multiple V tests. I leave the DVM hooked up and proceed to discover that as soon as one puts a significant load on the system the Voltage drops rapidly to about 2.5V. once the load is removed it climbs back up to 12.5 in about a minute.
Yes sir. In over 50+ years I have never had one just magically die, nor have I had one that would recover V wise as this on did. But V and I are two different things and I know that. DUMBA--
Almost forgot to mention that at one point I was going to finish mowing with the big tractor at which time ii discovered it's new alternator put on during the winter was no longer functioning.
GREAT DAY Hope you enjoyed reading it and that you day was a bit better

 

[JimmyJazz]

I have an Allis Chalmers 5040 that I have owned close to 10 years. It was built around 1980. Hours unknown. It has never failed to serve my needs. I assume it has very little in the way of electronics. I keep considering selling it and "upgrading" to maybe an L3301 but then I read things like this. I currently possess zero ability to diagnose electrical problems and have no desire to learn. I could use a loader/grapple but don't absolutely need it. I feel your pain. Good luck.

 

[RBsingl]

Jimmy,

If you have a decent schematic for the machine and a simple digital or analog meter that will measure resistance and DC voltage, you can learn to troubleshoot most electrical issues pretty easily. It can become more difficult for the newer and more complex tractors with an engine and emissions system under ECM control but even with those, problems like these no start conditions are often from simple poor connections and failed safety switches.

Most of these problems are either from a bad battery (easily tested and can also be ruled out by using a jump pack), a fault in the safety system (switch adjustment, failed switch, wiring), or a bad cable or connection resulting in excessive voltage drop under a high current starting load.

The easiest way to check for bad connections in a high current 12 volt system is to measure voltage drop across the suspected connection. For example if you suspect one of the clamp to cable connections with a battery cable, put one probe on the clamp on one end of the cable and the other probe on connector on the other end. Set the meter to read DC voltage and if the meter isn't auto-range, choose a scale that will provide a measurement of somewhere in the 15 to 50 volt full scale range. Now place a fairly high current load on the system (headlights for example) and read the voltage drop. A good cable will show almost no voltage but one with a failed connection will show close to full battery voltage. IF you are using an analog meter and the meter tries to read below zero, reverse the leads; a DMM will just read it as a negative voltage.

You can check any suspected connection in the high current parts of the power circuit using this method. A standard VOM or DMM isn't capable of using direct resistance measurement to find flawed connections in the high current circuitry because they aren't capable of accurately measuring extremely low resistance which would still cause the circuit to fail. One hundredth of an ohm sounds extremely low for resistance and it would be impossible to measure directly with your DMM, but under a 300 amp starter load that slightly degraded connection will drop 3 volts.

I have a specialized Simpson meter setup which is a 4 wire measuring instrument that makes valid measurements down to 1/1000 of an ohm but it isn't something most people would need or use. With the 4 wire setup, it uses two of the leads to pass current through the suspected fault and the other two leads measure voltage drop across the fault. Using a standard meter and the load from the headlights or starter, you are doing the same thing with a standard meter. The battery and headlight/starter pass current through the suspected circuit and your meter measures the voltage drop across it.

A suspected safety system can easily be checked using the wiring diagram for your tractor and looking for a completed circuit through the safety switches and wiring when they should be allowing for a start.

Faults in safety systems are annoying but the systems do provide an important function. Maybe YOU never forget to do things properly but what about when one of your family members decides to help out by doing tractor related chores when you suddenly become ill? Several years ago, I was visiting one of my farmer neighbors who left the PTO running on his large Deere tractor while he got out of the cab to stretch his legs. He was using a pull batwing mower to do the ditches and his wife grabbed one of their very young grandkids who was walking over to see the spinning PTO shafts that fascinated him. Nobody plans on having an accident, safety devices are there to decrease the odds when we do something stupid out of carelessness, fatigue, or distraction. Farming is one of the most dangerous professions because they often have to work well beyond a safe period of time to beat the weather or make up for lost time due to unexpected equipment failure. Those are the times that these despised safety systems might be the most important part of the machine.

And safety systems have been around for a very long time. I restored the below pictured WW II era BC-610 transmitter several years ago. It has very high voltage present at multiple exposed points when the top cover is opened and the top cover must be opened often during operation to make changes. Operating practice requires the HV off switch to be thrown off before the cover is opened or any work is done inside the transmitter and it has multiple safety switches in series with the HV on/off switch and relay that controls power to the HV transformer. These switches are problematic and often need to be adjusted to allow the HV supply to activate but they are there for a good reason and I know of one restorer who got careless and electrocuted himself after "temporarily" bypassing one of those problematic switches, another friend who worked with him said temporarily meant he bypassed it several years ago.

Rodger

 

[jkrubi12]

RBsingl, thanks for a very interesting and informative read! I intend to re-read this post thoroughly until I fully understand all of the excellent advice within it

Additionally, I would respectfully ask that if you know of any specific Youtube vids that may be of further assistance in visualizing & understanding some of the great stuff you mentioned, please leave links here!

Thanks again, truly interesting and informative

 

[RBsingl]

jkrubi12,

You are very welcome!

I don't know of any youtube links offhand but I will take a look this weekend to see if anything looks useful.

A circuit diagram of a tractor or anything else can look overwhelming when you first look at it but when you "make the connection" that the system can be examined as smaller interconnected simple sections of a more complex whole, then it becomes MUCH easier. When you have an online schematic, I strongly suggest printing it out and using colored pens or markers to highlight areas you are working on. Whenever you are working on something complex, anything you can do to simplify the process makes it much easier!

I have spent a lot of time dealing with electronics from the simple to the complex and I just keep in mind that the complex can be viewed as a group of simple issues

I just finished restoring this rare Hallicrafters DD-1 "Skyrider Diversity" receiver from the late 1930s, it only awaits replacement grill cloth which is difficult to find during the pandemic. It is a fairly complex shortwave radio which is basically two receivers built on the same chassis and designed to be connected to two different antennas for diversity reception. It is complex for a 1930s era shortwave receiver but its complexity pales in comparison to this 1960s era Tektronix Type 555 dual beam oscilloscope I went through several years ago.

Rodger

 

[MILESKellogs]

jkrubi12,

You are very welcome!

I don't know of any youtube links offhand but I will take a look this weekend to see if anything looks useful.

A circuit diagram of a tractor or anything else can look overwhelming when you first look at it but when you "make the connection" that the system can be examined as smaller interconnected simple sections of a more complex whole, then it becomes MUCH easier. When you have an online schematic, I strongly suggest printing it out and using colored pens or markers to highlight areas you are working on. Whenever you are working on something complex, anything you can do to simplify the process makes it much easier!

I have spent a lot of time dealing with electronics from the simple to the complex and I just keep in mind that the complex can be viewed as a group of simple issues

I just finished restoring this rare Hallicrafters DD-1 "Skyrider Diversity" receiver from the late 1930s, it only awaits replacement grill cloth which is difficult to find during the pandemic. It is a fairly complex shortwave radio which is basically two receivers built on the same chassis and designed to be connected to two different antennas for diversity reception. It is complex for a 1930s era shortwave receiver but its complexity pales in comparison to this 1960s era Tektronix Type 555 dual beam oscilloscope I went through several years ago.

Rodger

View attachment 83264 View attachment 83265 View attachment 83266 View attachment 83267

Jimmy,

If you have a decent schematic for the machine and a simple digital or analog meter that will measure resistance and DC voltage, you can learn to troubleshoot most electrical issues pretty easily. It can become more difficult for the newer and more complex tractors with an engine and emissions system under ECM control but even with those, problems like these no start conditions are often from simple poor connections and failed safety switches.

Most of these problems are either from a bad battery (easily tested and can also be ruled out by using a jump pack), a fault in the safety system (switch adjustment, failed switch, wiring), or a bad cable or connection resulting in excessive voltage drop under a high current starting load.

The easiest way to check for bad connections in a high current 12 volt system is to measure voltage drop across the suspected connection. For example if you suspect one of the clamp to cable connections with a battery cable, put one probe on the clamp on one end of the cable and the other probe on connector on the other end. Set the meter to read DC voltage and if the meter isn't auto-range, choose a scale that will provide a measurement of somewhere in the 15 to 50 volt full scale range. Now place a fairly high current load on the system (headlights for example) and read the voltage drop. A good cable will show almost no voltage but one with a failed connection will show close to full battery voltage. IF you are using an analog meter and the meter tries to read below zero, reverse the leads; a DMM will just read it as a negative voltage.

You can check any suspected connection in the high current parts of the power circuit using this method. A standard VOM or DMM isn't capable of using direct resistance measurement to find flawed connections in the high current circuitry because they aren't capable of accurately measuring extremely low resistance which would still cause the circuit to fail. One hundredth of an ohm sounds extremely low for resistance and it would be impossible to measure directly with your DMM, but under a 300 amp starter load that slightly degraded connection will drop 3 volts.

I have a specialized Simpson meter setup which is a 4 wire measuring instrument that makes valid measurements down to 1/1000 of an ohm but it isn't something most people would need or use. With the 4 wire setup, it uses two of the leads to pass current through the suspected fault and the other two leads measure voltage drop across the fault. Using a standard meter and the load from the headlights or starter, you are doing the same thing with a standard meter. The battery and headlight/starter pass current through the suspected circuit and your meter measures the voltage drop across it.

A suspected safety system can easily be checked using the wiring diagram for your tractor and looking for a completed circuit through the safety switches and wiring when they should be allowing for a start.

Faults in safety systems are annoying but the systems do provide an important function. Maybe YOU never forget to do things properly but what about when one of your family members decides to help out by doing tractor related chores when you suddenly become ill? Several years ago, I was visiting one of my farmer neighbors who left the PTO running on his large Deere tractor while he got out of the cab to stretch his legs. He was using a pull batwing mower to do the ditches and his wife grabbed one of their very young grandkids who was walking over to see the spinning PTO shafts that fascinated him. Nobody plans on having an accident, safety devices are there to decrease the odds when we do something stupid out of carelessness, fatigue, or distraction. Farming is one of the most dangerous professions because they often have to work well beyond a safe period of time to beat the weather or make up for lost time due to unexpected equipment failure. Those are the times that these despised safety systems might be the most important part of the machine.

And safety systems have been around for a very long time. I restored the below pictured WW II era BC-610 transmitter several years ago. It has very high voltage present at multiple exposed points when the top cover is opened and the top cover must be opened often during operation to make changes. Operating practice requires the HV off switch to be thrown off before the cover is opened or any work is done inside the transmitter and it has multiple safety switches in series with the HV on/off switch and relay that controls power to the HV transformer. These switches are problematic and often need to be adjusted to allow the HV supply to activate but they are there for a good reason and I know of one restorer who got careless and electrocuted himself after "temporarily" bypassing one of those problematic switches, another friend who worked with him said temporarily meant he bypassed it several years ago.

Rodger
View attachment 83256

Thanks for your input, the battery connections was my first thought even knowing they had just been cleaned.
I failed to mention that I've done this type of work for the last 50 years, half of that in engineering.
After my fiasco, still questioning my findings, I verified the battery was toast with my load tester. Also wondered about the charging system and maybe it was at the root of the issue but it's functioning fine.
Definitely a first-time experience of having a battery fail that abruptly but it's one that I won't forget. As they say, "lessons paid for are best remembered"

 

[RBsingl]

Glad you found the problem and got it resolved MILES!

I have had two sudden battery failures, both in cars during the summer. No symptoms, no slow crank, etc. Both started fine in the morning but left me stranded later that day with no restart.

A friend has a smaller 400 series Deere garden tractor with a small Yanmar diesel and when it was about 10 years old it failed to crank. Dealer tech came out and tried and jump it and got some sparks but no crank and told him the engine was seized and it probably wasn't worth the cost to fix. I was over at his house later that week and he shared the sad tale. A quick check showed a problem with the positive battery cable which had largely corroded away inside the jacket where it connected to the battery post terminal so connecting a jumper cable to it didn't help. I replaced the connector instead of the engine

 

[JimmyJazz]

Jimmy,

If you have a decent schematic for the machine and a simple digital or analog meter that will measure resistance and DC voltage, you can learn to troubleshoot most electrical issues pretty easily. It can become more difficult for the newer and more complex tractors with an engine and emissions system under ECM control but even with those, problems like these no start conditions are often from simple poor connections and failed safety switches.

Most of these problems are either from a bad battery (easily tested and can also be ruled out by using a jump pack), a fault in the safety system (switch adjustment, failed switch, wiring), or a bad cable or connection resulting in excessive voltage drop under a high current starting load.

The easiest way to check for bad connections in a high current 12 volt system is to measure voltage drop across the suspected connection. For example if you suspect one of the clamp to cable connections with a battery cable, put one probe on the clamp on one end of the cable and the other probe on connector on the other end. Set the meter to read DC voltage and if the meter isn't auto-range, choose a scale that will provide a measurement of somewhere in the 15 to 50 volt full scale range. Now place a fairly high current load on the system (headlights for example) and read the voltage drop. A good cable will show almost no voltage but one with a failed connection will show close to full battery voltage. IF you are using an analog meter and the meter tries to read below zero, reverse the leads; a DMM will just read it as a negative voltage.

You can check any suspected connection in the high current parts of the power circuit using this method. A standard VOM or DMM isn't capable of using direct resistance measurement to find flawed connections in the high current circuitry because they aren't capable of accurately measuring extremely low resistance which would still cause the circuit to fail. One hundredth of an ohm sounds extremely low for resistance and it would be impossible to measure directly with your DMM, but under a 300 amp starter load that slightly degraded connection will drop 3 volts.

I have a specialized Simpson meter setup which is a 4 wire measuring instrument that makes valid measurements down to 1/1000 of an ohm but it isn't something most people would need or use. With the 4 wire setup, it uses two of the leads to pass current through the suspected fault and the other two leads measure voltage drop across the fault. Using a standard meter and the load from the headlights or starter, you are doing the same thing with a standard meter. The battery and headlight/starter pass current through the suspected circuit and your meter measures the voltage drop across it.

A suspected safety system can easily be checked using the wiring diagram for your tractor and looking for a completed circuit through the safety switches and wiring when they should be allowing for a start.

Faults in safety systems are annoying but the systems do provide an important function. Maybe YOU never forget to do things properly but what about when one of your family members decides to help out by doing tractor related chores when you suddenly become ill? Several years ago, I was visiting one of my farmer neighbors who left the PTO running on his large Deere tractor while he got out of the cab to stretch his legs. He was using a pull batwing mower to do the ditches and his wife grabbed one of their very young grandkids who was walking over to see the spinning PTO shafts that fascinated him. Nobody plans on having an accident, safety devices are there to decrease the odds when we do something stupid out of carelessness, fatigue, or distraction. Farming is one of the most dangerous professions because they often have to work well beyond a safe period of time to beat the weather or make up for lost time due to unexpected equipment failure. Those are the times that these despised safety systems might be the most important part of the machine.

And safety systems have been around for a very long time. I restored the below pictured WW II era BC-610 transmitter several years ago. It has very high voltage present at multiple exposed points when the top cover is opened and the top cover must be opened often during operation to make changes. Operating practice requires the HV off switch to be thrown off before the cover is opened or any work is done inside the transmitter and it has multiple safety switches in series with the HV on/off switch and relay that controls power to the HV transformer. These switches are problematic and often need to be adjusted to allow the HV supply to activate but they are there for a good reason and I know of one restorer who got careless and electrocuted himself after "temporarily" bypassing one of those problematic switches, another friend who worked with him said temporarily meant he bypassed it several years ago.

Rodger
View attachment 83256

I appreciate your response. I have spent most of my life fixing things because I possess the ever present poor boy mentality instilled in me as a boy. I am 60 now a realize that lots, maybe the majority of people have no tolerance for fixing things and the "do it yourself" approach to life. I have a painter coming next week and I consider this a luxury. Even having a tractor is unneeded by most of the population and possibly many people here (a blasphemous statement perhaps) . I love my B2601 because its newer and trouble free. Enjoy your multimeter and good luck in all you do.

 

[pjoh784350]

I read the OP twice to be sure. You don't mention that you actually disengaged the PTO when you returned to the seat. I assume you did that and also checked the other levers to be sure that none had been hit when you got off the tractor?

 

[RBsingl]

I appreciate your response. I have spent most of my life fixing things because I possess the ever present poor boy mentality instilled in me as a boy. I am 60 now a realize that lots, maybe the majority of people have no tolerance for fixing things and the "do it yourself" approach to life. I have a painter coming next week and I consider this a luxury. Even having a tractor is unneeded by most of the population and possibly many people here (a blasphemous statement perhaps) . I love my B2601 because its newer and trouble free. Enjoy your multimeter and good luck in all you do.

Jimmy,

I turn 62 tomorrow and my approach to fixing things comes from my father who was a young child growing up on an IL farm during the Great Depression. I learned mechanical and electrical repair from him as a young child and more importantly his belief in repairing rather than discarding. All of the emphasis on "green manufacturing/operation" is worthless when the stuff ends up in a landfill after a few years.

I was fortunate to have some great opportunities in life so I can hire others to do things but in retirement I enjoy repair UNLESS there is a major time constraint. Two years ago, an idler pulley went out on the 72" mid mount deck for my Deere 955 compact utility and Deere had revised the deck several times since I had purchased the tractor. The dealer parts people weren't sure what exact parts (spacers, bushings, revised mount, etc.) were needed because there had been so many revisions but they were sure they didn't have the items in stock. It was a wet year and I was mowing my 5.5 acres twice a week except due to rain it had been 8 days since I could mow with more rain forecast for the next day so time was critical. I had to buy a replacement piece of Chinese junk pulley at Farm and Fleet to get it going and after that I drilled and split the original pulley and rebuilt it with new bearings.

My goal in retirement is high quality/low maintenance and I think the Kubota front mount mower I ordered will fit the bill. I switched my propane fired water heaters out for electric because the new propane fired models have multiple safety sensors making them so complex that something that was highly reliable isn't anymore and the electric are much simpler devices. But good luck trying to find a modern refrigerator, washer, or dryer that isn't basically junk. When my cousin retired from farming 15 years ago, he was still using a IH refrigerator/freezer and deep freezer that he got as a bonus when he bought a new IH combine back in the 1960s and they are still working perfectly for his grandson who now has them. I bought my house in 1990 and it came with a medium size Frigidaire refrigerator from the GM era, I moved it from the kitchen to the mudroom where it is still working flawlessly. During that same time period, I am on my third refrigerator/freezer in the kitchen because none have held up like the solid GM produced refrigerator.

My father spent most of his life working as a civilian for the USAF as a supervisor and training educator in the electronics area. I have a photo of him in my home office receiving a letter of commendation and a check from the base commander for a procedure he developed for repairing instead of replacing an expensive antenna used on the "Hurricane Hunters" planes during the 1960s. The USAF was replacing these high failure rate pieces at several thousand each which was a lot of money in the 1960s, his repair procedure took about 2 hours and consumed less than $20 worth of parts. That was his approach to life and one I am glad I inherited.

 

[JimmyJazz]

Jimmy,

I turn 62 tomorrow and my approach to fixing things comes from my father who was a young child growing up on an IL farm during the Great Depression. I learned mechanical and electrical repair from him as a young child and more importantly his belief in repairing rather than discarding. All of the emphasis on "green manufacturing/operation" is worthless when the stuff ends up in a landfill after a few years.

I was fortunate to have some great opportunities in life so I can hire others to do things but in retirement I enjoy repair UNLESS there is a major time constraint. Two years ago, an idler pulley went out on the 72" mid mount deck for my Deere 955 compact utility and Deere had revised the deck several times since I had purchased the tractor. The dealer parts people weren't sure what exact parts (spacers, bushings, revised mount, etc.) were needed because there had been so many revisions but they were sure they didn't have the items in stock. It was a wet year and I was mowing my 5.5 acres twice a week except due to rain it had been 8 days since I could mow with more rain forecast for the next day so time was critical. I had to buy a replacement piece of Chinese junk pulley at Farm and Fleet to get it going and after that I drilled and split the original pulley and rebuilt it with new bearings.

My goal in retirement is high quality/low maintenance and I think the Kubota front mount mower I ordered will fit the bill. I switched my propane fired water heaters out for electric because the new propane fired models have multiple safety sensors making them so complex that something that was highly reliable isn't anymore and the electric are much simpler devices. But good luck trying to find a modern refrigerator, washer, or dryer that isn't basically junk. When my cousin retired from farming 15 years ago, he was still using a IH refrigerator/freezer and deep freezer that he got as a bonus when he bought a new IH combine back in the 1960s and they are still working perfectly for his grandson who now has them. I bought my house in 1990 and it came with a medium size Frigidaire refrigerator from the GM era, I moved it from the kitchen to the mudroom where it is still working flawlessly. During that same time period, I am on my third refrigerator/freezer in the kitchen because none have held up like the solid GM produced refrigerator.

My father spent most of his life working as a civilian for the USAF as a supervisor and training educator in the electronics area. I have a photo of him in my home office receiving a letter of commendation and a check from the base commander for a procedure he developed for repairing instead of replacing an expensive antenna used on the "Hurricane Hunters" planes during the 1960s. The USAF was replacing these high failure rate pieces at several thousand each which was a lot of money in the 1960s, his repair procedure took about 2 hours and consumed less than $20 worth of parts. That was his approach to life and one I am glad I inherited.

I inherited no mechanical ability from my father but due to economic circumstance taught myself how to rehab property and fix things in general. Most of my well to do neighbors probably don't own a socket set and they certainly don't cut their own grass. I am the only person with a tractor within a couple of mile radius that I am aware of. I have discussed the benefits of Kubota ownership with several and they think I am nuts. Now golf and cocktails that's a different story.

 

[RBsingl]

I inherited no mechanical ability from my father but due to economic circumstance taught myself how to rehab property and fix things in general. Most of my well to do neighbors probably don't own a socket set and they certainly don't cut their own grass. I am the only person with a tractor within a couple of mile radius that I am aware of. I have discussed the benefits of Kubota ownership with several and they think I am nuts. Now golf and cocktails that's a different story.

A lot of your "well to do" neighbors may not be as well off as they appear. I spent a short period of time serving on a bank loan committee and that was an eye opener.

Good for you in teaching yourself how to repair things! I have a PhD but I think the most important thing I learned in all of my years of education was from one of my undergrad profs who observed that when you understand something, you have it forever but when you just memorize something it is soon lost. I kept that bit of wisdom in mind during my years as a university prof emphasizing understanding so that my students would leave with something of value and I guess it worked. At my daughter's recent high school graduation, an uncle of one of the new grads was a former university student who had me during my first year as a prof. He came up to me after graduation and told me that he took so much away from my class because I led the class into understanding how these discrete bits of knowledge fit together as an understandable system.

My daughter will be starting college this August. She taught herself calculus when she was in the fifth grade and in her sophomore year of high school taught herself machine learning and neural network techniques and has published research in predicting veteran's suicide, modeling viral spread, and identifying those prone to radicalization. Her self-taught approach is based in understanding and not memorization and it is serving her well as she begins her academic career. Her published research and other academic accomplishments led to a presidential scholarship from the private university she will be attending as she starts on the path to her doctorate in applied math.