Generic Power Beyond Questions

TheOldHokie

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Hm
I had intended to just follow the installation instructions.
Now you've given me pause.

What's the advantage to this third function kit instead of the Kubota diverter valve then?
And how is the curl function disabled if it's all in the valve?
Is it ran through the PB circuit and back into the valve?

They do mention caution about a backhoe, but since this kit is specifically for a BX23S (which always has a backhoe) and the BX2380 I had figured it was regarding aftermarket setups.
I had intended to do more research once I could dig into the tractor.


:ROLFMAO:

I wasn't asking specifically for that, I wanted to understand in general how they worked.

For now at least, the third function is to run a front auger. FWIW.

This is more complicated than I expected (but that's why I asked, you never know what you don't know).
I still want to know and understand, but for now I'll let this marinate. And I have to go move a bunch of pellets and run around with my kids for a bit.
Marinate is good. Front auger is a motor and thats also going to cause some issues.

Dan
 

TheOldHokie

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Thank you so much for the help you've given me so far, I really appreciate it.



I saw something about this in another thread. So I definitely want to figure this out correctly.

All you need to know about that is teh backhoes must be the last valve in the chain. I am more concerned about that auger.

Dan
 

Soopitup

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Marinate is good. Front auger is a motor and thats also going to cause some issues.

Dan
Awesome!

I am hoping since it's a Land Pride and is specifically designed for sub compact tractors that it should work okay.
However, we all know how good a job Engineers can do sometimes......
 

TheOldHokie

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Hm
I had intended to just follow the installation instructions.
Now you've given me pause.

What's the advantage to this third function kit instead of the Kubota diverter valve then?
And how is the curl function disabled if it's all in the valve?
Is it ran through the PB circuit and back into the valve?

They do mention caution about a backhoe, but since this kit is specifically for a BX23S (which always has a backhoe) and the BX2380 I had figured it was regarding aftermarket setups.
I had intended to do more research once I could dig into the tractor.
Landpride is basically third party. These systems were originally designed to fit a lot of different machines and the instructions are suspect.

You ask a lot of good questions and you catch on quick. But answering this set gets really complicated.

There is a real advantage to the LP kit versus a diverter. A diverter cannot do what you want period.

ThevKubota loader valve is not a conventional design.

  1. The boom circuit is serial and return oil goes out PB so it does not block.
  2. The dump circuit is regenerative and there is no return flow so it blocks
  3. The curl circuit is parallel and return oil goes out T so it blocks.
That's three new terms that are probably Greek to you.

Its easier to explain why putting the 3rd function ahead of that operation avoids the blocking issue.

Dan
 

Soopitup

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I understand what all the words mean in regular English. I could probably Hazard a half ass guess what it means on the tractor but that's too much to do on my phone.

I guess the most important thing right now is understanding how to install that third function set once I get it. So we might as well start there.
 

TheOldHokie

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I understand what all the words mean in regular English. I could probably Hazard a half ass guess what it means on the tractor but that's too much to do on my phone.

I guess the most important thing right now is understanding how to install that third function set once I get it. So we might as well start there.
A very practical philosophy - you must be an engineer rather than a Curious George research scientist like me :rolleyes:

So I have already covered that and I have attached an annotated parts diagram of BX23S loader valve plumbing below. The placement of the 3rd function is per WR Long not LP.

Landpride will tell you to feed the 3rd function off the power beyond on the loader valve. That works for most but not all of what you want with the grapple. and auger. Curl and dump are going to block the third function. LP would also tell you to hook the 3rd function valve up ass backwards which also works exactly the same but is a documentation error on their part.

WR Long would tell you to feed the third function with the pump and use the tank port on the 3rd function to feed the pump port on the loader valve. That gives you everything you want with the grapple but may give you some side effects with the auger that you don't want.

Dan

BX23S_3Func.png
 

Soopitup

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The grapple was just an example. I don't have one and don't intend to get one right now. Lots of other implements I would get in front of it personally.

At least for the foreseeable future the only other front Implement I'm going to run is the auger so that would be the priority.

Front loader in auger are my only two powered implements.
 

TheOldHokie

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The grapple was just an example. I don't have one and don't intend to get one right now. Lots of other implements I would get in front of it personally.

At least for the foreseeable future the only other front Implement I'm going to run is the auger so that would be the priority.

Front loader in auger are my only two powered implements.
OK - here's the crux of my concerns with the auger:

Landpride plumbing
  1. If you go with the LP installation the auger works fine but when its loaded up digging a hole in heavy/rocky soil you will lose a lot of lift power. Not a biggy but it will be noticeable - shut it off and everything returns to normal Curl and dump will not be affected.
  2. Similarly if you stall the auger you will also stall the boom - no lift at all. Same as #1 as soon as you shut the motor off everything returns to normal. Curl and dump will not be qffected
  3. If you stall the boom you will also stall the motor. Let up on the boom and auger restarts
  4. You cant curl and dump with the auger running - it will stop the instant you start those operations
WR Long plumbing
  1. You get just about everything you want in terms of simulataneos operation but it comes with a cost
  2. When the auger is running all of the loader functions will lose some power. Shut the motor off everything returns to normal
  3. If you stall the auger you will stall all loader functions. Shut the motor off everything returns to normal
Personally I think the advantages of the WR Long plumbing outweighs the side effects but thats your call not mine.

Dan
 

Soopitup

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A very practical philosophy - you must be an engineer rather than a Curious George research scientist like me :rolleyes:
I'm a mechanic. I could have been an engineer I guess, except the job is too sedentary for me. I need to use my hands and my brain. Not just one or the other.
I like to learn about all kinds of things honestly. Sometimes things I need to know, sometimes just curious.

So I have already covered that and I have attached an annotated parts diagram of BX23S loader valve plumbing below. The placement of the 3rd function is per WR Long not LP.

Landpride will tell you to feed the 3rd function off the power beyond on the loader valve. That works for most but not all of what you want with the grapple. and auger. Curl and dump are going to block the third function. LP would also tell you to hook the 3rd function valve up ass backwards which also works exactly the same but is a documentation error on their part.

WR Long would tell you to feed the third function with the pump and use the tank port on the 3rd function to feed the pump port on the loader valve. That gives you everything you want with the grapple but may give you some side effects with the auger that you don't want.

Dan

View attachment 115245
In the above diagram the part on the left is the loader valve?
And on the lower right is the pump?

I would attach the P port on my LP 3rd fuct valve to the pump outlet? Part 110?
And the T port is going to attach to the middle line?


The WR Long sounds better to me too. The auger is the primary when I'm using it so it needs all the power it can get, especially on this baby tractor.
 

TheOldHokie

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I'm a mechanic. I could have been an engineer I guess, except the job is too sedentary for me. I need to use my hands and my brain. Not just one or the other.
I like to learn about all kinds of things honestly. Sometimes things I need to know, sometimes just curious.



In the above diagram the part on the left is the loader valve?
And on the lower right is the pump?

I would attach the P port on my LP 3rd fuct valve to the pump outlet? Part 110?
And the T port is going to attach to the middle line?


The WR Long sounds better to me too. The auger is the primary when I'm using it so it needs all the power it can get, especially on this baby tractor.
The fitting #110 is rhe pump outlet on the side of the transmission housing. The pump itself is not shown - its on the back left of the transmission.

The hose #20 is the pump supply going to the P port on the ioader valve. You disconnect it and connect the P port on the 3rd function to the pump outlet #110. Then connect the loader supply hose #20 to the T port on the 3rd function.

The resulting circuit is:

PUMP->3RD FUNCTION->LOADER VALVE

I don't know if the hoses you get with the kit will accommodate that routing. Just looking at the diagram I would think so but there may be some subtlety I am missing.

Dan
 

Soopitup

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The fitting #110 is rhe pump outlet on the side of the transmission housing. The pump itself is not shown - its on the back left of the transmission.

The hose #20 is the pump supply going to the P port on the ioader valve. You disconnect it and connect the P port on the 3rd function to the pump outlet #110. Then connect the loader supply hose #20 to the T port on the 3rd function.

The resulting circuit is:

PUMP->3RD FUNCTION->LOADER VALVE

I don't know if the hoses you get with the kit will accommodate that routing. Just looking at the diagram I would think so but there may be some subtlety I am missing.

Dan
Ok, cool

That seems pretty simple.
Dealer called today and said the kit is in, I'm going to try to pick it up in the next couple of days.
I need the 50 hour stuff too, I'm at 48+ hours already.


Back to the generic third function stuff.
You had said the the spool valve blocks the flow from P to T when they're actuated?
What's the deal with that? I thought third function was (in part) to allow multiple actuators to function at the same time?
Is this an only sometimes thing? Some power beyond capable valves do it and some don't? Seems like it works that way with the kit I got if you set it up that way?
Diverter valves are different because they can never do that?
 

TheOldHokie

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Ok, cool

That seems pretty simple.
Dealer called today and said the kit is in, I'm going to try to pick it up in the next couple of days.
I need the 50 hour stuff too, I'm at 48+ hours already.


Back to the generic third function stuff.
You had said the the spool valve blocks the flow from P to T when they're actuated?
What's the deal with that? I thought third function was (in part) to allow multiple actuators to function at the same time?
Is this an only sometimes thing? Some power beyond capable valves do it and some don't? Seems like it works that way with the kit I got if you set it up that way?
Diverter valves are different because they can never do that?
Diverter valves are not directional control valves.

Diverter valves go on the workports of a directional control vslve and switch the valve between two sets of cylinders. In the case of third function in one position the joystick controls bucket dump and curl. In the other position it controls grapple open and close. The two functionscare mutually exclusive. Has absolutely nothing to do with open center or power beyond.

Power beyond is not meant to allow valves to operate at the same time. Power beyond separates tank and center flow. If you don't you wind up with upstream cylinders in series with down stream cylinders and that is generally a bad thing.

Your 3rd function valve dies not have power beyond which is why it does not block. The side-effect of that is the grapple winds up in series with bucket and boom. That allows simultaneous operation but has bad side-effects. Forvexample you dont want your auger motor driving the bucket and boom. It robs power from the auger and if you stall the loader the auger stops.

I appreciate your quest for understanding. You get that by assimilating the basic operation first and then adding the more advanced circuits. Just accept the fact that a conventional power beyond circuit blocks all down stream devices. Thats a basic concept that you need to understand.

Dan
 

Mikeymotorbikey

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B2601
Jun 30, 2022
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North Branch, Minnesota
Sorry, Soopitup, I don’t mean to hijack this thread but there is a lot of good info here and I’d just like a little input from Dan on the placement of valves in the PB chain.

Dan, I’ve been following along with this to help me better understand adding rear remotes and third function valve to my B2601. We have discussed a little via DM.

I’m at the point of plumbing my system and read in post #31 here, your recommendation to plumb valves in the PUMP>3RD FUNCTION>LOADER VALVE order. I’m assuming this would apply to any tractor hydraulic system?

Can you comment on the relief system when plumbed in this order?

Will there not be a relief for the 3rd function when plumbed in this order?

Is that a concern?



Thanks, looking forward to your comments.



Mike
 

TheOldHokie

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Sorry, Soopitup, I don’t mean to hijack this thread but there is a lot of good info here and I’d just like a little input from Dan on the placement of valves in the PB chain.

Dan, I’ve been following along with this to help me better understand adding rear remotes and third function valve to my B2601. We have discussed a little via DM.

I’m at the point of plumbing my system and read in post #31 here, your recommendation to plumb valves in the PUMP>3RD FUNCTION>LOADER VALVE order. I’m assuming this would apply to any tractor hydraulic system?

Can you comment on the relief system when plumbed in this order?

Will there not be a relief for the 3rd function when plumbed in this order?

Is that a concern?



Thanks, looking forward to your comments.



Mike
Its s good question and a valid concern.

Before I answer that question let me clarify one thing. I am not advocatiing for that WR Long order. In fact I am not real keen on it. I was pointing out that contrary to popular belief you dont get "true" independence of bucket curl/dump and third function operation when the 3rd function is placed after the loader valve. It gets better if its ahead of the loader but there are still othet undesirable interactions. No free lunch.

So to your question. There is no relief in the third function valves so you always need to be sure the tractor has one between the pump and 3rd function valve. Most newer model Kubotas have that relief in or ahead of the hydraulic outlet. Machines built in the 70s and 80s are iffy. So dont assume - consult the WSM for your machine. I dont know the answer for a B2601 but I will look. I suspect the tractor outlet is protected but better safe than sorry.

Dan
 
Last edited:

Mikeymotorbikey

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B2601
Jun 30, 2022
22
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3
North Branch, Minnesota
Per the B2601 WSM, the first relief valve in the system is in the loader valve. Item 17 in the attachment.
If the 3rd function was placed before the loader valve on this machine it would leave the pump unprotected, correct?
 

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TheOldHokie

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Per the B2601 WSM, the first relief valve in the system is in the loader valve. Item 17 in the attachment.
If the 3rd function was placed before the loader valve on this machine it would leave the pump unprotected, correct?
I looked at the parts diagram but it tells the same story. Frankly I was surprised but thats why you have to look.

If you put the 3rd function ahead of the loader valve on a B2601 you will deadhead and over pressure the pump anytime a grapple cylinder stalls. Thats a recipe for trouble - put the 3rd function after the loader vslve.

Dan
 

Mikeymotorbikey

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B2601
Jun 30, 2022
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North Branch, Minnesota
Thanks for the second set of eyes and advice Dan.
I was playing with 3rd function valve mounting locations last night and remembered the PUMP>3RD FUNCTION>LOADER VALVE from this thread. Started looking at how that would make nice short plumbing from the pump to the 3rd function valve if it was mounted to the loader upright.
Then got thinking more about it this morning and realized that there would be no relief for the 3rd function. After the loader valve it is for B2601s.

Mike
 

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Soopitup

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BX23S
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Sorry, Soopitup, I don’t mean to hijack this thread but there is a lot of good info here and I’d just like a little input from Dan on the placement of valves in the PB chain.
No worries man, ask away. :)
You can never have too much info.

*Ok, sometimes you can*