Flow of Power Beyond Hydraulics

[tjaltz]

I have a B3200 with a power beyond port installed for a backhoe. I recently had a WR Long 3rd Function installed by my dealer. Now I’m adding (on my own) a two spool manual control valve for rear remotes. I have the piping laid out and just want to make sure there is no problem with my design. The rear power beyond port that the backhoe connects to is normally looped when the backhoe is off and the 3 point hitch is installed. The flow of my layout would be PB to backhoe input (if installed), then out to 3rd function “P” port, out 3rd function “T” port and in to rear remote valve “P” port, out rear remote “T” port then return to tank. Look good?

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have a B3200 with a power beyond port installed for a backhoe. I recently had a WR Long 3rd Function installed by my dealer. Now I’m adding (on my own) a two spool manual control valve for rear remotes. I have the piping laid out and just want to make sure there is no problem with my design. The rear power beyond port that the backhoe connects to is normally looped when the backhoe is off and the 3 point hitch is installed. The flow of my layout would be PB to backhoe input (if installed), then out to 3rd function “P” port, out 3rd function “T” port and in to rear remote valve “P” port, out rear remote “T” port then return to tank. Look good?
View attachment 114327

 

[tjaltz]

Sorry, it may be because I'm looking on a mobile device, but I cant see your response.

 

[TheOldHokie]

No. Dont know what model backhoe you have but most of them must be last in the loop. The proper circuit would be:

1. Loader PB to P on 3rd function.
2. T in 3rd function to P port on Summit remote valve
3. N port (with PB sleeve) to backhoe coupler
4. T port on Summit valve to any tank return. That is likely not the backhoe return.

WR Long likes to put the 3rd function ahead of the loader in which case it would be:

1. PB on loader to P on Summit valve
2. N port (with sleeve installed) on Summit vale to backhoe coupler.
3. T port on Summit valve to tank. Same caveat as above.

Dan

 

[tjaltz]

No. Dont know what model backhoe you have but most of them must be last in the loop. The proper circuit would be:

1. Loader PB to P on 3rd function.
2. T in 3rd function to P port on Summit remote valve
3. N port (with PB sleeve) to backhoe coupler
4. T port on Summit valve to any tank return. That is likely not the backhoe return.

WR Long likes to put the 3rd function ahead of the loader in which case it would be:

1. PB on loader to P on Summit valve
2. N port (with sleeve installed) on Summit vale to backhoe coupler.
3. T port on Summit valve to tank. Same caveat as above.

Dan

1. would be:loader PB to e backhoe valve must be last.

Dan
It's a Kubota BH-76 Backhoe. Originally the PB circuit was used only for the backhoe, and was usually just connected with the hose loop, as the backhoe is not normally mounted. When the dealer installed the WR Long 3rd function, they fed the 3rd function's P port with the backhoe outlet of PB Circuit and had the T from the third function return to tank. I was going to place the rear remotes after the third function and then return to tank. I wasn't aware that the backhoe needed to be last.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "WR Long likes to put the 3rd function ahead of the loader". Isn't the PB Circuit on the loader valve?

Thanks for your input

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan
It's a Kubota BH-76 Backhoe. Originally the PB circuit was used only for the backhoe, and was usually just connected with the hose loop, as the backhoe is not normally mounted. When the dealer installed the WR Long 3rd function, they fed the 3rd function's P port with the backhoe outlet of PB Circuit and had the T from the third function return to tank. I was going to place the rear remotes after the third function and then return to tank. I wasn't aware that the backhoe needed to be last.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "WR Long likes to put the 3rd function ahead of the loader". Isn't the PB Circuit on the loader valve?

Thanks for your input

The power beyond circuit is a loop through ALL of the valves invloved. It starts at the hydraulic outlet block and ends at the 3pt.

The control valve on a BH76 should never be used to feed another valve. The return line is actually a PB feed to the 3pt valve which is disabled when the backhoe id installed.. Using that line as a power beyond can and likely wil damage the backhoe valve.

The dealer that installed your 3rd function is hydraulically challenged. When they use the backhoe return as PB for another valve it can and often does end up costing them warranty replacement on a new backhoe valve. The tank line back pressure from the 3rd function damages the seals in the backhoe valve. We had a recent thread on that exact 3rd function install. After two blown BH valves the owner came here and discovered the real source of the problem. When he told the dealer what he had learned they said "sorry" and finally fixed it after roaching two backhoe valves.

Dan

 

[tjaltz]

The power beyond circuit is a loop through ALL of the valves invloved. It starts at the hydraulic outlet block and ends at the 3pt.

The control valve on a BH76 should never be used to feed another valve. The return line is actually a PB feed to the 3pt valve which is disabled when the backhoe id installed.. Using that line as a power beyond can and likely wil damage the backhoe valve.

The dealer that installed your 3rd function is hydraulically challenged. When they use the backhoe return as PB for another valve it can and often does end up costing them warranty replacement on a new backhoe valve. The tank line back pressure from the 3rd function damages the seals in the backhoe valve. We had a recent thread on that exact 3rd function install. After two blown BH valves the owner came here and discovered the real source of the problem. When he told the dealer what he had learned they said "sorry" and finally fixed it after roaching two backhoe valves.

Dan

Thank you sir, I think I understand. It shouldn’t take too much for me to adjust the flow correctly. I will just need to replace the banjo fitting and pipe that faces rearward for the backhoe with something that I can connect to the WR Long “P” input. Does this new flow look correct to you.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thank you sir, I think I understand. It shouldn’t take too much for me to adjust the flow correctly. I will just need to replace the banjo fitting and pipe that faces rearward for the backhoe with something that I can connect to the WR Long “P” input. Does this new flow look correct to you.
View attachment 114351

Close but no cigar. Ypu need to purchase and install the P40G power beyond conversion sleeve from Summit.

Power Beyond Adapter Sleeve for P40G Series Summit Monoblock Valves

FREE SHIPPING Power Beyond Adapter Sleeve for P40G Series Summit Monoblock Valves

summit-hydraulics.com

Remove tye steel plug in thevN port on the valve andd install thatvsleeve. Then connect the hose you currently have going to the T port to the sleeve you just installed in the N port. That creates the power beyond circuit through the Summit valve.

But you also need a tank connection from the T port to the tractor sump. I would suggest you tee that hose into the tank return line on the loader valve.

You produce good clear drawings - I am looking forward to seeing the next iteration

 

[tjaltz]

Close but no cigar. Ypu need to purchase and install the P40G power beyond conversion sleeve from Summit.

Power Beyond Adapter Sleeve for P40G Series Summit Monoblock Valves

FREE SHIPPING Power Beyond Adapter Sleeve for P40G Series Summit Monoblock Valves

summit-hydraulics.com

Remove tye steel plug in thevN port on the valve andd install thatvsleeve. Then connect the hose you currently have going to the T port to the sleeve you just installed in the N port. That creates the power beyond circuit through the Summit valve.

But you also need a tank connection from the T port to the tractor sump. I would suggest you tee that hose into the tank return line on the loader valve.

You produce good clear drawings - I am looking forward to seeing the next iteration

I think this is what you’re suggesting. I‘m don‘t really understand the difference between the separate Power Beyond port created with the adapter in the N port, and the pressurized tank return line from the Summit Valve. Since I have to remove the 3 Point to mount the backhoe, I would never use the rear remotes while the backhoe was connected. I may just not understand the reasoning. Thank you very much for all of your help. It’s really appreciated and hopefully the diagrams will help others who view this thread.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I think this is what you’re suggesting. I‘m don‘t really understand the difference between the separate Power Beyond port created with the adapter in the N port, and the pressurized tank return line from the Summit Valve. Since I have to remove the 3 Point to mount the backhoe, I would never use the rear remotes while the backhoe was connected. I may just not understand the reasoning. Thank you very much for all of your help. It’s really appreciated and hopefully the diagrams will help others who view this thread.

View attachment 114375

Closer but still no cigar.

Power beyond is a separate line that that carries pressure over to the next valve in the daisy chain. It is often called high pressure carry over (HPCO). The sleeve in the N port separates the pressure from the tank flows coming out of your Summit valve. They are isolated flows.

Now think about that diagram - you have T connected to N (power beyond) and you have undone the effect of the power beyond sleeve.

The tank is always separate from the power power beyond circuit. The T port on the Summit valve goes to the tank return line on the loader valve. You will find that hose and connection on the side of the transmission case just below the seat.

Other than that you got it.

Dan

PS> I have added a diagram explaining power beyond. In your case you have two anomalies:

• The 3rd function valve is a stackable industrial valve designed to use tank for high pressure carry over
• Kubota cheats on their backhoe valves and they run the T line to tank through the 3pt valve because they know that circuit will never see pressure when the backhoe is connected. That causes a lot of confusion as you have already seen.

 

[tjaltz]

Closer but still no cigar.

Power beyond is a separate line that that carries pressure over to the next valve in the daisy chain. It is often called high pressure carry over (HPCO). The sleeve in the N port separates the pressure from the tank flows coming out of your Summit valve. They are isolated flows.

Now think about that diagram - you have T connected to N (power beyond) and you have undone the effect of the power beyond sleeve.

The tank is always separate from the power power beyond circuit. The T port on the Summit valve goes to the tank return line on the loader valve. You will find that hose and connection on the side of the transmission case just below the seat.

Other than that you got it.

Dan

PS> I have added a diagram explaining power beyond. In your case you have two anomalies:

• The 3rd function valve is a stackable industrial valve designed to use tank for high pressure carry over
• Kubota cheats on their backhoe valves and they run the T line to tank through the 3pt valve because they know that circuit will never see pressure when the backhoe is connected. That causes a lot of confusion as you have already seen.

View attachment 114387

View attachment 114386

Thank you Dan. I will take the seat/suspension off to get a better look at the tank return hose, then go back and create a revised flow chart, which at this point has become therapeutic for me.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I think this is what you’re suggesting. I‘m don‘t really understand the difference between the separate Power Beyond port created with the adapter in the N port, and the pressurized tank return line from the Summit Valve. Since I have to remove the 3 Point to mount the backhoe, I would never use the rear remotes while the backhoe was connected. I may just not understand the reasoning. Thank you very much for all of your help. It’s really appreciated and hopefully the diagrams will help others who view this thread.

Here is a diagram of your circuit with Summit remotes, BH, and 3rd function

NOTES:

When backhoe is connected PB on Summit valve is feeding pump pressure to inlet on backhoe valve. T on backhoe is feeding the 3pt valve which is disabled and becomes a low pressure unobstructed tank return. This is a cheap ass shortcut by Kubota to avoid the added expense of fitting a proper BH valve with PB.

When backhoe is eliminated the PB on Summit remotes is now feeding pump pressure to 3pt valve which is no longer disabled.

Dan

 

[tjaltz]

Dan,
I removed what was necessary to access the loader valve tank return hose. I probably have a little more room on the bottom to insert a tee than I do on the top. It’s a relatively soft hose compared to the high pressure lines, and is just held on with hose clamps. Is this because even though it’s being fed by the high pressure tank lines of the loader and Summit valve, there is no pressure build up because it’s open to the tank? Could I cut in brass “tee” with hose clamps, or should the tee be steel? I‘m going to see if I can find a tee that screws into the threads that the current hose connection is screwed into. That would be cleaner.

Tank you again Sir, I hope this thread will help others down the road the way it helped me.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan,
I removed what was necessary to access the loader valve tank return hose. I probably have a little more room on the bottom to insert a tee than I do on the top. It’s a relatively soft hose compared to the high pressure lines, and is just held on with hose clamps. Is this because even though it’s being fed by the high pressure tank lines of the loader and Summit valve, there is no pressure build up because it’s open to the tank? Could I cut in brass “tee” with hose clamps, or should the tee be steel? I‘m going to see if I can find a tee that screws into the threads that the current hose connection is screwed into. That would be cleaner.

Tank you again Sir, I hope this thread will help others down the road the way it helped me.

Tom

View attachment 114415
View attachment 114416

Tank lines are always open to sump hence low pressure. Hose barb tee with clamp is fine. Nylon, brass, steel all work

.The factory fitting is probably BSPP and since I am anal I would probably do aomething excessive like this.

EDIT: nope. After looking closer that fitting is not what I thought. Hose barb and clamps

.https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9151-06-06-06.html



Dan

 

[tjaltz]

Tank lines are always open to sump hence low pressure. Hose barb tee with clamp is fine. Nylon, brass, steel all work

.The factory fitting is probably BSPP and since I am anal I would probably do aomething excessive like this.

EDIT: nope. After looking closer that fitting is not what I thought. Hose barb and clamps

.https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9151-06-06-06.html



Dan

Dan;
You have been incredibly patient with me and I appreciate it. I do have one more question. I am piping it together as you suggested, shown in (yet another) flow chart below. I just got a notice that the Power Beyond Adapter from Summit for the P40G-2A1 valve body is on back order. I need to get this tractor back in service. Could I temporarily route the green line from the Summit ”T” back to the return fitting on the 3 point, eliminating the Power Beyond loop for the backhoe For now? I won‘t need to use the backhoe in the immediate future. I would also plug the “T” in the loader valve return to tank hose that was going to connect the the “T” port on the Summit. Once I get the Power Beyond Adapter, I will complete it as shown.
Thanks,

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan;
You have been incredibly patient with me and I appreciate it. I do have one more question. I am piping it together as you suggested, shown in (yet another) flow chart below. I just got a notice that the Power Beyond Adapter from Summit for the P40G-2A1 valve body is on back order. I need to get this tractor back in service. Could I temporarily route the green line from the Summit ”T” back to the return fitting on the 3 point, eliminating the Power Beyond loop for the backhoe For now? I won‘t need to use the backhoe in the immediate future. I would also plug the “T” in the loader valve return to tank hose that was going to connect the the “T” port on the Summit. Once I get the Power Beyond Adapter, I will complete it as shown.
Thanks,
Tom.
View attachment 114438

Light that cigar!

Now - can you temporarily use the T port for power beyond to the 3pt while you wait on the back ordered sleeve? Yes. I have had multiple customers install those valves without PB and use them like that for years without any problems. But it was against my advice and I did have ONE that experienced damaged seals and had to replace his leaking valve.

I have a brand new P40 valve on the shelf here and I think there is a sleeve in the box with it. Let me check and if so I can send the sleeve to you and you can have Summit ship me a replacenent. It will cost you a few bucks extra for shipping but you can avoid the (pretty low) risk of damaging your valve. How does that sound?

In my experience Summit gets backordered items back in stock pretty fast and I have never waited long if you prefer to wait on them.

Dan

 

[tjaltz]

Light that cigar!

Now - can you temporarily use the T port for power beyond to the 3pt while you wait on the back ordered sleeve? Yes. I have had multiple customers install those valves without PB and use them like that for years without any problems. But it was against my advice and I did have ONE that experienced damaged seals and had to replace his leaking valve.

I have a brand new P40 valve on the shelf here and I think there is a sleeve in the box with it. Let me check and if so I can send the sleeve to you and you can have Summit ship me a replacenent. It will cost you a few bucks extra for shipping but you can avoid the (pretty low) risk of damaging your valve. How does that sound?

In my experience Summit gets backordered items back in stock pretty fast and I have never waited long if you prefer to wait on them.

Dan

If you have PB Adapter that would be great. I was going to call Summit later today to find out when they were expected. Thank you.

 

[TheOldHokie]

If you have PB Adapter that would be great. I was going to call Summit later today to find out when they were expected. Thank you.

Tom

I checked and I do have one. Check with Summit and let me know what you want to do.