Diagnostic tool K-OBD ACE

[jeepers_85]

Hello colleagues. Can anyone tell me what exactly the KUBOTA K-OBD ACE diagnostic kit includes? These are the numbers I find: 07916-81100-changed with: 07916-81102-changed with: 07916-81103, but there is no information anywhere about what exactly is inside (what cables, software, hardware). Best regards

 

[William1]

$2,500 and an annual subscription.....

 

[TheOldHokie]

$2,500 and an annual subscription.....

Plus a requirement for initial training in AZ and annual followups. Big time recurring bucks....

Dan

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

Hello colleagues. Can anyone tell me what exactly the KUBOTA K-OBD ACE diagnostic kit includes? These are the numbers I find: 07916-81100-changed with: 07916-81102-changed with: 07916-81103, but there is no information anywhere about what exactly is inside (what cables, software, hardware). Best regards

designed to help farmers / fleets that run and repair our equipment.
Not cost effective or realistic for a single unit owner IMHO. Costs a couple thousand dollars. You can buy with or without laptop, etc... so you customize the parts and pieces you need based on what equipment you are operating. For example construction equipment and Ag. equipment can use different cables and plugs. Your dealer should be able to tell you what bits and pieces will be needed for your fleet of equipment. I have seen a page of options of add ons and do dads avaliable.
Its lets us read codes, make resets and diagnose problems. Helps diagnose and repair.
What it doesn't do is let you into the ECU to change programed parameters calibratetions like shutting off sensors, doing DPF deletes, change max rpm's, injector settings, etc...

 

[jeepers_85]

Thanks for the answers, but my question is what is hidden behind these numbers, what is in the briefcase? I am engaged in the repair and maintenance of agricultural equipment (Kubota) and have worked with this diagnostic and am aware of its functions. Now I want to purchase my own.

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

What it should be is a USB-A plug and a universal phone app for $100. This stuff is stupidly expensive for no good reason. Farmers used to be able to fix their own tractors which is why there are antiques at parades, but with computers that lock owners out of repairs modern equipment becoming "antiques" is coming to an end.

 

[TheOldHokie]

What it should be is a USB-A plug and a universal phone app for $100. This stuff is stupidly expensive for no good reason. Farmers used to be able to fix their own tractors which is why there are antiques at parades, but with computers that lock owners out of repairs that's hit a time-wall.

View attachment 168609

Absolutely.

To your exact point - I have a BMW scan tool app for my phone. Its a partial port of the OEM diagnostic and coding software used by the dealers. BMW has made the code and vehicle data files public. The only thing private is the vehicle factory security modules that let you do things like change a VIN. If I wanted to I could build a laptop with the same functionality as the ones dealer techs have.

So this is strictly on Kubota and other OEMs that are holding equipment owners hostage for no reason other than greedy profits.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks for the answers, but my question is what is hidden behind these numbers, what is in the briefcase? I am engaged in the repair and maintenance of agricultural equipment (Kubota) and have worked with this diagnostic and am aware of its functions. Now I want to purchase my own.

Contact a dealer for a definitive answer. My understanding is based on a previous thread involving @whitetiger.

First and foremost Kubota has to approve your "need" for the software and you have to attend a multi-day factory training class in AZ before you can actually buy the software and hardware.

The software is divided into separately licensed packages for agricultural and undustrial machines. You will get pretty much everything the dealer techs have.

The software requires a yearly license for which you pay an annual 4 figure license fee. You also have to attand a yearly refresher training class in AZ.

Maybe whitetiger can weigh in and correct any inaccuracies or ommisions in my response.

Hope this helps.

Dan

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Kubota is just following John Deere and not allowing 'right to repair', which I thought went to court and Deere lost.
For Kubota it's a HUGE money maker. There is no good reason why owners can't have access to the 'computer' to reset 'codes' or look at sensor outputs.
It's been posted here ,that changing an injector requires a $$$$$$$ trip to the dealer to 'program the computer'. Rediculous. That simple task should be done by the owner. Actually the 'computer' should just read the sensor and automatically update it's firmware.Less than 30 lines of code for that operation

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

Thanks for the answers, but my question is what is hidden behind these numbers, what is in the briefcase? I am engaged in the repair and maintenance of agricultural equipment (Kubota) and have worked with this diagnostic and am aware of its functions. Now I want to purchase my own.

gotcha.... from what the kids tell me but this is from the top of their heads. They suggest you ask the people selling these products (OEM or aftermarket supplier) whats in the boxes as the aftermarket suppliers may be different than an OEM supplier.

81100 is the license which gets you access to the Kubota website, login ID, software and passwords
81103 are the plugs, cables, vehicle communicator interface for Ag. equipment using canbus in a small packout style briefcase.
90014 for non canbus users these are the serial connectors and cable including a vehicle communicator interface in a small packout suitcase.

this is all they had on hand but for sure your supplier of choice will be able to tell you.

 

[TheOldHokie]

gotcha.... from what the kids tell me but this is from the top of their heads. They suggest you ask the people selling these products (OEM or aftermarket supplier) whats in the boxes as the aftermarket suppliers may be different than an OEM supplier.

81100 is the license which gets you access to the Kubota website, login ID, software and passwords
81103 are the plugs, cables, vehicle communicator interface for Ag. equipment using canbus in a small packout style briefcase.
90014 for non canbus users these are the serial connectors and cable including a vehicle communicator interface in a small packout suitcase.

this is all they had on hand but for sure your supplier of choice will be able to tell you.

It would be really nice to have a 3rd party service provider with reasonabke rates near me

Dan

 

[Hugo Habicht]

It would be really nice to have a 3rd party service provider with reasonabke rates near me

Dan

Maybe time to reverse engineer their interface and messages and publish the results as an open source project

 

[jeepers_85]

The thing is, even the official dealer in my country doesn't give me any information. I have completed courses and certificates for service activities and handling computer diagnostics and believe me, not everyone can handle it, you need to understand what exactly you are doing. Calibrations, ignition corrections, entering injector codes, programming computers and many other options are done. That's why I think that only trained personnel should handle it (my opinion). And modern tractors are self-diagnosed via the CAN bus so that if there is a real problem, they display an error code on the dashboard, which can orient the operator where exactly the problem is and try to fix it.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Maybe time to reverse engineer their interface and messages and publish the results as an open source project

Lots of people have tried that with other OEMs and with limited success. The interfaces are pretty standard.

But capturing and reverse engineering the traffic on a CAN buss is daunting. Add to that some OEMs are encrypting the data making it nearly impossible without the proper keys.

I think the real solution is regulatory requirements but big money lobbys are hard at work to prevent it.

Dan

 

[Hugo Habicht]

I am afraid Dan, you are 100% correct in all points.

Especially the encryption is a huge hurdle.

Nevertheless somebody that has access to the Kubota system should be able to accomplish that. Possibly legislation will take care of that when the people will govern their countries again instead of large corporations through their lobbyists.

But this is something people with newer tractors and cars have to worry about, for exactly those reasons all the vehicles I will drive until the end of my life I own already and none of them was built after 1991.

 

[TheOldHokie]

The thing is, even the official dealer in my country doesn't give me any information. I have completed courses and certificates for service activities and handling computer diagnostics and believe me, not everyone can handle it, you need to understand what exactly you are doing. Calibrations, ignition corrections, entering injector codes, programming computers and many other options are done. That's why I think that only trained personnel should handle it (my opinion). And modern tractors are self-diagnosed via the CAN bus so that if there is a real problem, they display an error code on the dashboard, which can orient the operator where exactly the problem is and try to fix it.

Thats the Readers Digest version of the OEM talking points..

My response is its my machine and my money. If I want to risk screwing it up that should be my choice.

Most OEMs sell "reasonably priced" tools and licenses via third parties. Kubota is not in that group.

I wish you luck dealing with the Great Orange Wall.

Dan

 

[whitetiger]

With the introduction of KOBD ACE, Kubota has relaxed the terms for third-party access to the electronic service tool.
Diagmaster is no longer supported by Kubota Tractor Division, only Kubota Industrial Engines.

The package includes a case with the cables, connectors, and an interface box.

KOBD ACE 3rd Party/Customer Availability: To accommodate 3rd-party organization/customer requests to diagnose and repair equipment outside of Kubota Authorized Dealerships, Kubota has made KOBD ACE available for purchase by these groups.
1.10.4.1 3rd Party License Management: Each 3rd-party organization/customer must purchase one KOBD ACE license and the required hardware to begin using the tool. This license is an annual license, and the license fee must be collected by the selling dealer once the annual subscription has ended. The first-year license fee is included in the cost of the KOBD ACE license initial purchase.

For the initial setup of a 3rd party organization/customer KOBD ACE Organization, the selling dealer must fill out the KOBD ACE 3rd Party Organization Registration Form. Kubota will create the KOBD ACE Organization in the Account Manager system. Once this form is submitted, a KOBD ACE license and the required hardware must be purchased.

Note that the order is for a 3rd party organization/customer and provide the organization/customer name. Once the 3rd party organization/customer KOBD ACE Organization is created and the license is ordered, Kubota will associate the KOBD ACE users with the license code.

All KOBD ACE users registered in the Account Manager and linked with a license will receive an email containing their username, temporary password, and a link to the License Management Server. Once received, the user can log in to the KOBD ACE system and download a KOBD ACE application from the License Management Server.

Please advise the 3rd party organization/customer to check their spam folder if the license does not show up in their inbox. To limit the unlicensed use of KOBD ACE, 3rd party organizations/customers are not allowed to administrate the users associated with their license. Kubota dealers must submit a TSC case request with the 3rd party organization/customer name and license number to modify users for a 3rd party organization/customer. Kubota will then perform the changes to the user account in the KOBD ACE Organization.

1.10.4.2 3rd Party Manual Access: 3rd party organizations/customers do not have access to Workshop/Diagnosis Manuals through KOBD ACE.

1.10.4.3 Support for 3rd Party Organization/Customer; Dealers are responsible for providing support and managing the relationship with the 3rd party organization/customer for KOBD ACE. These users will be unable to contact Kubota for support on KOBD ACE tools; they must work with their local dealer to resolve issues.

This support includes, but is not limited to:
• Hardware/Software support
• Functional training on how to use the KOBD ACE tool

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

Kubota is just following John Deere and not allowing 'right to repair', which I thought went to court and Deere lost.
For Kubota it's a HUGE money maker. There is no good reason why owners can't have access to the 'computer' to reset 'codes' or look at sensor outputs.
It's been posted here ,that changing an injector requires a $$$$$$$ trip to the dealer to 'program the computer'. Rediculous. That simple task should be done by the owner. Actually the 'computer' should just read the sensor and automatically update it's firmware.Less than 30 lines of code for that operation

It's not quite that simple, like injector tolerances are so tight nowadays with emissions and efficiency standards they aren't "perfect" so they're tested and that result is entered into the computer when changing an injector...however, changing an injector shouldn't require dealer intervention.

...I have completed courses and certificates for service activities and handling computer diagnostics and believe me, not everyone can handle it, you need to understand what exactly you are doing. Calibrations, ignition corrections, entering injector codes, programming computers and many other options are done. That's why I think that only trained personnel should handle it (my opinion). And modern tractors are self-diagnosed via the CAN bus so that if there is a real problem, they display an error code on the dashboard, which can orient the operator where exactly the problem is and try to fix it.

That sounds like a design problem to me, where too complex a solution is applied to a simple problem. If that complex a solution is needed then there should be supporting service tools to fix the problems in the field. Diagnostic software should be able to say:

Sensor X reading: 0​

Normal range: 100 to 500​

Test:​

Sensor Location: [image]​

Meter set to OHMS.​

Sensor resistance: [table of values]​

Diagnostic software should be available at no charge since the it is needed to service the vehicle and therefore a required cost of producing the vehicle (tractor, in this case). The reason I say this is we know some brands will go out of business, and once that happens their products are obsolete-no more changing an injector, the software can't phone home as there is no "home."

Diagnostic software should be standardized. If UNIX variants can be relatively standardized to the point an open-source version exists, and R/C helicopter (very complex) transmitters/receivers (hardware) and software can be open-sourced, there's no reason common "commodities" such as vehicle ECUs cannot follow the same approach, and as a side effect cost much, much less. (Horizon Hobby R/C controllers were incredibly expensive, and getting 8 channels or more was a huge investment. When people got fed up and open-sourced R/C 16-channel controllers not only became available but also at around the same price as a Horizon Hobby 5-channel, and with far higher quality and easily replaceable parts!)

 

[TheOldHokie]

It's not quite that simple, like injector tolerances are so tight nowadays with emissions and efficiency standards they aren't "perfect" so they're tested and that result is entered into the computer when changing an injector...however, changing an injector shouldn't require dealer intervention.


That sounds like a design problem to me, where too complex a solution is applied to a simple problem. If that complex a solution is needed then there should be supporting service tools to fix the problems in the field. Diagnostic software should be able to say:

Sensor X reading: 0​

Normal range: 100 to 500​

Test:​

Sensor Location: [image]​

Meter set to OHMS.​

Sensor resistance: [table of values]​

Diagnostic software should be available at no charge since the it is needed to service the vehicle and therefore a required cost of producing the vehicle (tractor, in this case). The reason I say this is we know some brands will go out of business, and once that happens their products are obsolete-no more changing an injector, the software can't phone home as there is no "home."

Diagnostic software should be standardized. If UNIX variants can be relatively standardized to the point an open-source version exists, and R/C helicopter (very complex) transmitters/receivers (hardware) and software can be open-sourced, there's no reason common "commodities" such as vehicle ECUs cannot follow the same approach, and as a side effect cost much, much less. (Horizon Hobby R/C controllers were incredibly expensive, and getting 8 channels or more was a huge investment. When people got fed up and open-sourced R/C 16-channel controllers not only became available but also at around the same price as a Horizon Hobby 5-channel, and with far higher quality and easily replaceable parts!)

I agree in general but would like to make a couple points.

1. Software and documentation is not free. Every owner needs an operations manual but not every owner needs a service manual. I would expect to pay a reasonable fee for service manuals and software distribution. Additional fees for periodic updates and maintenance.
2. OEMs compete and ECUs are key to performance and competitive edge. Thats not going to get standardized anymore than you would standardize an engine.
3. Interfaces are what gets standardized and right now outside of OBD2 there are no "open source" diagnostic or maintenance standards. Thats another competitive area but there are enough generic functions (e.g. coding an injector or battery) that some baseline standard COULD be developed. I dont see any industry interest in that and I dont see that happening without OEM support. From a historical perspective OBD2 was a CARB regulatory mandate that they were forced to adopt.

Dan

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I don't like it one bit BUT i can understand why companies like TESLA, etc... protect their coding, science, software, etc.... cause they invest so much time and money inventing self driving cars or even flying cars, or stuff to meet gov't emission guidelines, etc.... Why would they invest any money into these new technologies if say a foreign or even local competitor could just copy it and have "0" science and technology costs?

So JD or Kubota or whoever protecting their investment in how to meet emission requirements, or make their stuff more fuel efficient or make their stuff more reliable is understood on this end. Not liked but I understand why.