Why the BX23S Is Not So Compact

You may be familiar with my other thread where I had a fowled up delivery of a BX23S that is getting returned. That experience led me to do more research and look more closely at the John Deere 1025r and then the Kubota B2601, two models that would generally be seen as a step up in size and capability, but I also saw them as physically bigger and therefor less suitable for work in very small spaces. Spending quite a bit of time looking at all 3, I came to a conclusion that I did not expect: the Kubota BX23S, though physically smaller, is not as good for working in constrained spaces as other tractors. Here's why:

1) The ROPS on the BX23S is rather wide, 40.625" or 43.625" at the hinge point. That is nearly as wide as the rear tires. I quickly found that I had to be constantly watching the ROPS which driving tight spaces. The 1025r ROPS is about 30” wide and the B2601 is 31.5” (33” at the hinge hardware). I saw no issue with operator space while operating the 1025r backhoe. I’m not sure why the BX ROPS needs to be so wide, but it makes working in tight spaces much more difficult.

2) Fully retracted, the feet on the BX backhoe stabilizers are 49” wide, and that’s only if they’re held perfectly orthogonal to the ground. In their ‘relaxed’ state, they’re 50.75” wide. This is assuming the stabilizers are completely retracted, don’t have rubber feet, and haven’t drifted down at all. In constrained spaces, you have to watch those feet like a hawk to make sure they didn’t catch/scrape anything. The backhoe feet on the 1025r are 47” wide (exactly the same width as the rear tires), and have catches to ensure that they can’t drift down. I haven’t been able to measure the BH70 backhoe for the B2601. To be fair, I don’t have enough tractor time to know if the stabilizers drifting down is a thing, but it seems like a real concern, especially when they’re already the widest point on the BX. I feel Kubota should modify their BX23S spec sheet for the BX23S to reflect this width.

3) The smaller tires on the BX amplify problems 1 & 2. Working parallel to a fence or structure, a fairly small divot in the ground can really tip the tractor, making the ROPS and/or backhoe stabilizer smack into something. The 1025r would also have this problem to some extent, as the tires seem about the same size, however the ROPS and stabilizers are less an issue on the 1025r. I suspect a tractor with much larger tires like the B2601 would be much more stable in this regard.

3) I thought a smaller loader bucket would be better for small spaces, but the smaller 48” bucket on the BX actually makes working in constrained areas harder. The bucket barely extends beyond the 45” (which is really 49” with the backhoe on) footprint of the BX. Scooping or grading work parallel to a structure like a building or a fence is very hard because you can’t get close to anything without risking the tires/ROPS/stabilizers will do damage. I feel a wider loader bucket like the 54” on the 1025r or B2601 would be better for these constrained areas. I suppose I could put a wider bucket on the BX, but that would be a heavier wider bucket on a loader that already has pretty low lifting capacity.

4) The loader on the BX sticks out 6” further than the loader on the 1025r. This is measured from the front axle to the bucket front edge. I guess the extra length can be good when trying to reach and dump, but in a constrained space it just makes the BX turn radius seem that much bigger. The B2601 has exactly the same distance from front axle to bucket edge as the BX, but with a much more powerful loader.

5) In constrained spaces, a bigger backhoe is much better. I found several spots where access was extremely difficult and longer reach on the backhoe would really help. The 1025r wouldn’t help here but the extra length on the B2601’s BH70 would.

6) The BX has a bigger turning radius than the 1025r and the B2601. I don’t find this to be that big a deal, and the difference isn’t that big, but it’s just one more thing that seems to make the very compact BX feel not so compact. The B series also comes with individual wheel brakes but I don’t suspect the big advantage there is in making really tight turns. I suspect the wheel brakes may be really useful when working in constrained spaces, like right up near a structure or fence. Could you use the brake to stay close and parallel, but keep from drifting toward the building/fence?

Each by itself, none of these things are super deal-breaking issues, but after sorting all this out, I’m wondering what exactly I was gaining by choosing a BX. I kept thinking that the smaller narrower BX was going to be best at working in small spaces, and that the concessions I was making on lift capacities were worth it to have the more nimble machine. But it actually seems the BX is a worse candidate for small spaces than the next two bigger options I looked at. Everything I had originally figured turned out to have the opposite effect. I can’t recall reading anything online where anyone claimed the BX was actually worse for constrained spaces than the slightly bigger tractors (except maybe the bigger turn radius compared to the 1025r). Neither my JD nor my Kubota dealer pointed these things out either, even though I told them I was working in very constrained spaces.

I'm really interested in getting feedback on my points from more experienced people (I only have a few hours of seat time). Am I seeing this right?

North Idaho Wolfman said:

All these things are things you should have looked at and considered before you bought anything.

I don't think your going to equip any B with everything the BX23S model has for the same price, but I could be off on that as I haven't priced either in a long while.

I have a feeling you're basing some of your measurements of a L2601 with AG tires?
Turfs, Industrials or the new R14's (all three are much better options for a city tractor), are all going to change the width of the tractor.

I'll skip the rest of your points except #6.
Split brakes are not used in any fashion as your thinking, doing that would be cumbersome and dangerous, you cannot / and should not use split brakes for maneuvering, especially in tight areas.

Split brakes are for turning sharper in open areas like a lawn ( yet very likely to tear up the lawn) or a field not in tight spaces.

Most users and uses will never unlock the split brakes.

Click to expand...

Some of these things, I'm just not sure I could have figured out until I drove the tractor in real-world space, or if someone experienced explained them to me. Maybe if my dealers had obstacle courses. Furthermore, I explained my applications to both dealers and both seemed to think the little BX was better for small spaces because of its very compact design. I even posted a few times on this forum that I thought the BX was best for small spaces, and no one threw any doubt my way. It just seemed to be a generally accepted truth that the little BX was more nimble.

You're right, the B will cost more, come with more features and greater power, AND be as good or better in small spaces (I think). I think the reason to choose the BX would be purely cost, as the compactness argument just doesn't seem to hold ground.

I personally measured the B2601 with R14 tires.

I read one or more posts where people said they used their tire breaks to correct drift while driving an implement in a straight line (or even mowing on a hillside). The application I see, is trying to grade on a slope along a building or fence. I've never tried this so that's why I'm asking.

Oliver said:

I'd go with a B2301/2601, as you point out it's not much larger (in some cases not AS large) as the BX and I think you'll appreciate the additional ground clearance, larger tires, and overall ability over a BX or 1025. I imagine it'll cost more but if price is an issue couldn't the hoe be added later?

Click to expand...

One of the big cost advantages of the BX is that the 60" rotary broom option is much cheaper than JD's or the broom option for the B series. I was going to go for the broom for snow clearing, but I think I'm ok dropping that option and that would makeup the price difference to a B01. I think I'll be gaining more than I'd be losing.

Does anyone know the ground clearance of a mower deck on the B01? That is one thing I just can't find anywhere. The BX has 6-6.5" of clearance, and the 1025r is maybe an inch less. I hoped the B would have greater clearance with the mower deck but pictures and video have me wondering if it actually has less clearance than the BX.

dirtydeed said:

I'll add a few more points (to confuse you further )

I had a BX23 (older version) for many years. I used it for a part time landscaping business. It made quite a bit of $ for me. You'd soon figure out how to get into spaces that you didn't think you could get to...I can promise you that. I also did appreciate the wider ROPS (it provides much more room when operating the hoe). I would have to agree with you on the bucket width. It was difficult to run alongside a structure with the hoe when trying to bucket material with the loader (I had to replace one clients' downspout ).

The backhoe on both the BX and '01 B series will not swing 180 degrees. This can get quite frustrating if you have to do perimeter drains etc in close to a structure. You'd have to move up another frame size to the 50 series to get that full swing. Not sure what the limitations are on the green models, but, I'd suggest that you consider that limitation.

Regarding the split brakes on B series...I use them when plowing snow with a rear blade. I can keep the machine where I want it without the snow pushing me around. I've used them infrequently when I've gotten off camber.

The other thing to keep in mind is that all of the B series machines have (in addition to 3pt position control) a 3 speed transmission. The two speed transmissions of the BX and 1025R lack that middle gear. The middle gear is where most of the work gets done. To me, that's a pretty significant feature.

I believe Kubota was running some pretty sweet rebates on the B2301. That may be a good fit for you since you were looking for a bit smaller mower deck as well.

Best of luck

Click to expand...

I do want a MMM and I'm not sure if I can get away with the 60" deck on the B2650 (even a 54" deck is pretty wide, with a collection boot attached to the discharge). With the backhoe I would be doing a fair amount of trenching, maybe 3ft at the deepest, to run 4" drain pipes for gutter downspouts. I never lay the pipe right next to the foundation - usually more like 16-24" away when I need to run "close" to a building. However, usually the portion of the trench right near the building ends up being rather shallow - maybe 16-20", so the backhoe is less needed. If the trench is 24" from the building foundation, a compact tractor can park parallel to the building extremely close, and dig without dropping the building-side stabilizer.

If you have a B2650 parked orthogonal to a building and digging with the backhoe arm 90deg to the tractor, where do you dump the spoils? Or am I seeing it wrong? In many situations, I wouldn't even have the space to park the tractor like that.

I agree, the B2601 would come with some good feature upgrades.

Oliver said:

Are you considering a 2650 too? That***8217;s a lot bigger tractor.

The farther a mid mount deck extends past the rear wheels the easier it is to get close to things. I made the mistake of getting a 54***8221; deck on my B7500 (similar size to B2301) thinking it***8217;d be more maneuverable and regretted that.

Will you be installing gutter drains ongoing? Because if just them and a few other things like that for yourself you might consider hiring that out and save having to buy and store the hoe.

Click to expand...

I suspect the B2650 will be too big for me, but I think I'd better consider it and look at one just to make sure. Seems the B2650 is a bit bigger than the 01 and comes with 10-25% greater capacities. The only notable feature upgrade I could see was the 180deg backhoe arc. I'll do just a couple downspout trenching projects per year. I've done them by hand the digging labor really adds up. Other backhoe uses are stump removal, small tree transplanting, digging for basement egress windows and doors, digging for electrical to garages and such, etc... Of all the projects I listed, I'll tackle just a handful per year, and I do prefer to do the work myself - this isn't an everyday occupation.

I'm using the mower deck primarily for leaf cleanup, which is substantial in my area. We hit about 100+ man hours of manual labor per year for pickup and bagging. With a tractor mower with collector, I can slash that number, eliminate the time and cost to make trips to our landscape recycling center, handle the compost pile myself, and reuse it for other gardening projects. I won't have to time the work with the city curb pickup schedule, which never aligns nicely with the leaf fall. Right now, I don't see a very big advantage to using the tractor for regular yard mowing, since the yards are quite small. That could change in the future though.

I tried driving around with a 54" deck and found it really tight getting through some areas. On some of the smaller lots, the method is going to be to use backpack blowers to get the leaves onto the sidewalk, then pick them up with the mower there. On some of the sidewalks I tested out, a 54" deck could barely fit through.

North Idaho Wolfman said:

Here is my last input on this, now that I know what your wanting to do with this tractor...

Number 1 forget a tractor, it's not really suited for what you trying to do, it's too big and not properly equipable to do what you want.

You need to look at a f series unit or a zero turn and a very very small mini ex...

I really worry about your motivation / focus to get a tractor and a BH, mainly because you said you don't even have the ability to move it.
What are you going to do, drive the tractor to all these jobs?
You should really quit putting the cart before the horse and get the first things done first.
One would be to get a vehicle and a trailer capable to haul whatever your getting.
Next rent some equipment and figure out exactly what works the best, not one unit that you think will be a fit all, do all unit, as there is rarely ever one of those.

Click to expand...

Why would I buy a mower-only when I just explained that my tractor 'mowing' is mostly just limited to annual leaf cleanup? A tractor can run a PTO collector fan nicely if desired and on a zero-turn such a setup ends up being such a hack onto the deck belts. An F-series mower is what, $20k?
This summer the neighbors and I produced about 15 yards of compostable material which I have piled in two different places. How is a zero turn going to help me process and move that material for projects as needed?

What about grading yards and gravel driveways? I have tons of that work to do as well.

How am I going to transport a mini excavator if I already can't transport a tractor? The tractor is the transport for the backhoe, the mower, and any other implements, and yes, I'm going to drive to all these jobs. Everything I manage is within a 5 block area. I already tried this out with the BX and driving around my area is just fine. With a B2601 my maximum drive distance would be 1.5 minutes in high range. I quite literally have no other place to take a tractor on a trailer right now. Why would I buy a big truck and trailer when I don't have anything to haul or anyplace to haul it? I think you're putting the horse and the cart before the other horse that doesn't need a cart because it's a horse and can walk on its own just fine.

I have a utility trailer which serves me very well for almost everything I need to do. I might be able to transport a tractor only (no loader, no backhoe) but I'd have to be very careful.

Oliver said:

If driving around with a 60" deck (on any tractor) is tight I believe a B2650 is too large. I had a 72" deck on my B2650 and while a 60" would be 6" narrower on each side it would be a little more difficult to cut close to something with, similar to a 54" on a B2601. A 54" will work on a B01 but will be more cumbersome in actually use than the 60" deck IMO.

Click to expand...

I'm sure I could make a 60" deck work. I'm also pretty sure there are going to be some spots that I'll no longer fit through, but there are always workarounds. Hard to say which will prove better. I would be less worried about a 60" deck if I knew the 01 would raise it up higher - lots of spots where the deck can't drive through unless you can lift it up above obstacles.

The B2650 at 53.7" is a bit wider than the 01. The spec sheet has the B2301 at 45.3" wide and the B2601 at 49" wide, but my understanding is the width is entirely a matter of tire choice. The B2601 I saw had R14's and was 49" wide. Seems like bar turf tires might be best for me, which I think might be less wide. The other notable difference is that the B2650 weighs 661lb more than the B2601. That's a 47% increase in the tractor weight which won't be good for driving on yards, something I plan to do a lot of.

GreensvilleJay said:

It seems you have two major jobs to accomplish
1) digging trenches
2) leaf pickup

OK, NO TLB is the choice for those 2 jobs.

re: #2 That simple,easy task can be easily accompished with a 'Cyclone Rake' or similar unit. You use a regular riding mower. It can be used, abused,ugly and cheap. It's NOT cutting 10 lawns every week...only gets used 1-2 times a year. Good, used riders are maybe $500 up here. The Cyclone Rake is the tool where you need to spend your coins. I'd go the 'semipro version...bigger bag and engine. It'd be a lifetime purchase and really next to nothing to maintain. As for getting into tight spots, it'll go anywhere the current 'grass cutter' goes.

re: #1 digging trenches in close quarters like fences and foundations requires precise operations. Yes, a TLB can do rough holes, but a mini-ex can do PRECISE work. For really tight spots, a 'micro-ex' is even better ! They don't dig deep( maybe 4 feet) but less than 3' wide.

I get the impression this is all 'local' work but really you need a trailer. A small tandem axle rig will easily haul equipment AND carry/store all the tools. Shovels, fuel,oil, grease,rakes,saws,levels,buckets,supplies,etc. All that stuff probably fill a full size pickup. Having everything on the trailer helps keep 'stuff' organized and 'ready to roll'. Again, if you're not travelling far, the trailer will outlive you, same as the 'rake' and mini-ex.

I came to the conclusion that several 'dedicated' machines were better than a 'Swiss Army knife' unit.In my case I have 1 rider for house grass(has bags), 1 rider for rough cutting 1 acre 'lawn', 1 rider/snowblower,1 5000# forklift (as BX23S can't lift 2,000# logs),1 D-14 to lift giant pumpkins,1 D-14 for huge veggie garden(subsoiler/3f plow/till/etc.) and a spare D-14.just in case. The BX23S is for digging trenches, removing stumps,hauling small logs, carrying gravel/ponypoop,etc.It's also great at towing trailers and dead vehicles. I've got far less than the cost of the BX23S invested in all the others combined including the 16' car hauler,6by10 dump and 5by8 utility trailer.
By having several units , I have 'backups'. That's something you need to consider when running a business. If you only have one unit, the customer does NOT want to here ,'it's in the shop', they want their job done !

Jay

Click to expand...

First, I have a lot more things to do than the two things you chose. Did you read what I wrote? Tons of yard and driveway grading to do. Tilling as well.

It isn't clear to me how much I would use a tractor for regular mowing work, maybe I'll find it is really useful. It'll probably just depend on how many lawns I have to do in one day. If it's just one small lawn and the deck isn't on the tractor, I'll probably just grab a walk-behind mower.

A decent riding mower starts at maybe $2k and is another engine to maintain an another fairly large thing to store. A mower deck just gets put up on the shelf in the garage. I already bought a DR lawn vac a couple months ago when I though I'd have a tractor any day. I ended up towing it around and using it just as a material collector this fall. A load of wet leaves plus the lawn vac can easily be more than 1,000lb in total. I'm not sure if hauling that with a 450lb riding mower is the best idea. Plus, it'll be really nice to be able to dump the collector and push the pile with the loader.

I understand that everyone is really enthusiastic about how much better a mini excavator is, but I don't see why a tractor mounted backhoe won't work just fine for occasional stump/trench/whatever projects. I've operated a couple and they seemed to work just fine. Why would I spend $20k on a mini excavator instead of $5-7k on a backhoe that I can easily transport with the tractor? Any issues with precision and mess seem like operator issues. By the way, isn't a tracked machine going to tear up lawns much worse than a tractor with turf tires?

Did you read what I wrote? My max travel distance is about 1,500ft. I can drive a tractor from point to point before you can get your trailer hooked up.

I'm sure you have a really great setup, but I really don't want 6-10 machines to store and maintain and I feel like the real cost of obtaining all of those things is probably 3-4 times the cost of one new tractor.