Electric Vehicles. Can anyone make this make sense?

[NCL4701]

I know there are many on here much more knowledgeable than I on many topics, including electric power generation and transmission, thus the question.

To my stupid, simple self it seems totally crazy to think our current power grid is anywhere close to being able to handle the increased load of mass adoption of fully electric vehicles. Got to thinking about it because this morning we’re asked to reduce consumption of electricity because it’s cold. Just cold. Majority of residential systems here are the heat pump/“emergency” strip heat the power company has been pushing for many years, but when it gets really cold for a few days they can’t handle the demand.

Also appears to be a nearly insane security risk. If the majority of personal and business vehicles (saw an electric tri-axle Mack boom truck delivering sheetrock a few days ago) are electric grid dependent, an attack on a substation, or worse a power plant, would be unacceptably crippling to a large area.

Makes the battery fires look like one of the more minor issues. I’ve been to training classes for responding to lithium battery fires and for O&C investigation after, but it’s been a couple years so maybe they’ve come up with some miracle to handle them. Couple years ago they were a total nightmare.

Pairing an internal combustion engine with a battery and electric drive makes some sense to me. That’s retaining the same level of autonomy as internal combustion only and isn’t adding load to the electric grid.

Government forced grid dependent full electric appears mind numbingly stupid. I don’t want to go all tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but what am I missing? Is there some way to make the current push for grid dependent electric vehicles make sense?

 

[jimh406]

Government forced grid dependent full electric appears mind numbingly stupid.

I don't think you are missing anything. It's pretty simple to find out that in some parts of the country the electric grid had barely enough during some times of the year. Adding a tremendous number of EVs wasn't going to work without adding a lot of capacity. It's not conspiracy ... it's math.

For areas where EVs make sense, it was still a chicken and egg kind of scenario. Without the extra capacity, it wasn't going to work.

Of course, the security issue remains if first responders only use EVs, and there is no power.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Most power plants prefer to run with continuous load. This of course will never happen, the load fluctuates with the time of the day, the season, and soccer and football schedules.

As far as I know the grid load is typically lower at night time when the majority of electric vehicles are being charged. So the requirement for additional peak power may actually be very small.



In Germany a left/green government was pushing for electric vehicles, electric house heating (heat pumps) for years and switching off all nuclear power plants (that provided a huge portion of the electricity used) the same time.

With the lack of storage capacity this is leading to electricity supply problems which they seem to solve by buying in electricity from neighboring countries. So basically getting a "green/clean" economy at the expense of their neighbours.

The Norwegian government was debating stopping electricity sales to Germany because it was driving electricity cost up for their own population (not sure if a decision was made). And switching off your own nuclear power plants and then buying nuclear generated electricity from France defeats the purpose, I'd say.

Fact is that in my parents town the street lighting has been switched off on numerous occasions already. The official reason was to save CO2 emissions. I believe they simply did not have enough electricity but of course could not admit that.

Here in Ireland we have an increased number of power cuts, strangely enough always when it's dark and calm. Again, a green minister in charge pushed electricity for cars and house heating (and allowed loads of electricity hungry data centres to be built) without providing one additional power plant for years.

My prediction is that this will get worse and also electricity prices per kW hours will go very high with people installing solar panels everywhere without storage leaving only peak power supplies to the grid. Hence I started working on going off-grid. Another reason for that is power interruptions after storms. In the North people were without electricity for up to three weeks after the last storm.

 

[ken erickson]

And on top of that consider what the large data center's demand for electricity and water is and will be. I have a close friend that him and 10 or 12 other landowners are going thru pure hell with plans for a large data center proposed with a electric grid that is already running close to or at maximum capacity. They have been given no clear answers as to where the kilowatts and water is going to be sourced from.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I know there are many on here much more knowledgeable than I on many topics, including electric power generation and transmission, thus the question.

To my stupid, simple self it seems totally crazy to think our current power grid is anywhere close to being able to handle the increased load of mass adoption of fully electric vehicles. Got to thinking about it because this morning we’re asked to reduce consumption of electricity because it’s cold. Just cold. Majority of residential systems here are the heat pump/“emergency” strip heat the power company has been pushing for many years, but when it gets really cold for a few days they can’t handle the demand.

Also appears to be a nearly insane security risk. If the majority of personal and business vehicles (saw an electric tri-axle Mack boom truck delivering sheetrock a few days ago) are electric grid dependent, an attack on a substation, or worse a power plant, would be unacceptably crippling to a large area.

Makes the battery fires look like one of the more minor issues. I’ve been to training classes for responding to lithium battery fires and for O&C investigation after, but it’s been a couple years so maybe they’ve come up with some miracle to handle them. Couple years ago they were a total nightmare.

Pairing an internal combustion engine with a battery and electric drive makes some sense to me. That’s retaining the same level of autonomy as internal combustion only and isn’t adding load to the electric grid.

Government forced grid dependent full electric appears mind numbingly stupid. I don’t want to go all tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but what am I missing? Is there some way to make the current push for grid dependent electric vehicles make sense?

There are several the reasons for the system overload during cold spells.
Probably #1 is the amount of cheap simple terribly inefficient electric heater that get cranked on, along with the thousands of vehicles and tractors that get their block heaters plugged in.
And yes all of the other heating systems that get put into overdrive doesn't help.

No the whole power grid is not up to the task of handling a huge surge in the consumption rate.
There will need to be some major improvements for it to keep up with demand.
Some areas are better than others not only is grid capability but in electric production.
Most if not all of our power is Hydro, so it's cheaper to produce and "cleaner".

Here is a twist in the logic:
What happens to gas / diesel vehicles in the event of a power outage...
They run out of fuel and quit working.
Where you can solar charge an electric vehicle, try that with your gas or diesel rig and see what that does for you.

Full disclosure: I do have an electric vehicle, and yes it's great, it's cheap to operate, it's freaking fast, and super comfortable to drive or ride in.
But I also have a diesel truck and a gas car or 4 so we are covered.

I would love for them to perfect the hybrid hydrogen vehicle or even a standard hybrid to be as efficient, but we are not there.

Do I think that everyone and their cousin is going to do great with an electric vehicle, nope.

Do I think they are perfect, nope.
This a technology / innovation, and like every other piece of technology and Innovation / device / tool it will take some time to perfect it and iron out all the bugs.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

And on top of that consider what the large data center's demand for electricity and water is and will be. I have a close friend that him and 10 or 12 other landowners are going thru pure hell with plans for a large data center proposed with a electric grid that is already running close to or at maximum capacity. They have been given no clear answers as to where the kilowatts and water is going to be sourced from.

The sad thing is that all those data centres are mainly used for watching netflix/facebook/youtube/etc/etc... videos that basically, in my humble opinion, make the younger generation stupid. And now, on top of all this, all this useless (again, my humble opinion) "artifical stupidity intelligence". Serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

[Speed25]

I know there are many on here much more knowledgeable than I on many topics, including electric power generation and transmission, thus the question.

To my stupid, simple self it seems totally crazy to think our current power grid is anywhere close to being able to handle the increased load of mass adoption of fully electric vehicles. Got to thinking about it because this morning we’re asked to reduce consumption of electricity because it’s cold. Just cold. Majority of residential systems here are the heat pump/“emergency” strip heat the power company has been pushing for many years, but when it gets really cold for a few days they can’t handle the demand.

Also appears to be a nearly insane security risk. If the majority of personal and business vehicles (saw an electric tri-axle Mack boom truck delivering sheetrock a few days ago) are electric grid dependent, an attack on a substation, or worse a power plant, would be unacceptably crippling to a large area.

Makes the battery fires look like one of the more minor issues. I’ve been to training classes for responding to lithium battery fires and for O&C investigation after, but it’s been a couple years so maybe they’ve come up with some miracle to handle them. Couple years ago they were a total nightmare.

Pairing an internal combustion engine with a battery and electric drive makes some sense to me. That’s retaining the same level of autonomy as internal combustion only and isn’t adding load to the electric grid.

Government forced grid dependent full electric appears mind numbingly stupid. I don’t want to go all tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but what am I missing? Is there some way to make the current push for grid dependent electric vehicles make sense?

You're definitely correct. As proof to that point, Duke Energy locally will give me $700 to replace my old HVAC unit with a new, all-electric 15 SEER heat pump. On the other hand, if I do a new 15 SEER dual-fuel (gas and electric) heat pump, they'll give me $2,500.

The only rational reason I can see that the power company would incentivize me more to use gas instead of electricity is because they don't have enough power.

Now I do like the idea of some of the range-extended vehicles coming up that can run on gas, or plug in and recharge as that gives me both options in case one system or the other goes down. I remember when the Colonial pipeline thing happened several years ago. Gas was hard to find, but power wasn't an issue. Both power and gas infrastructure is a good hack away from collapse at any given time.

Edit: Okay, I might've found another reason why the power company is incentivizing me to use gas. The local gas company is a wholly owned subsidiary of the power company...

 

[TheOldHokie]

[

I know there are many on here much more knowledgeable than I on many topics, including electric power generation and transmission, thus the question.

To my stupid, simple self it seems totally crazy to think our current power grid is anywhere close to being able to handle the increased load of mass adoption of fully electric vehicles. Got to thinking about it because this morning we’re asked to reduce consumption of electricity because it’s cold. Just cold. Majority of residential systems here are the heat pump/“emergency” strip heat the power company has been pushing for many years, but when it gets really cold for a few days they can’t handle the demand.

Also appears to be a nearly insane security risk. If the majority of personal and business vehicles (saw an electric tri-axle Mack boom truck delivering sheetrock a few days ago) are electric grid dependent, an attack on a substation, or worse a power plant, would be unacceptably crippling to a large area.

Makes the battery fires look like one of the more minor issues. I’ve been to training classes for responding to lithium battery fires and for O&C investigation after, but it’s been a couple years so maybe they’ve come up with some miracle to handle them. Couple years ago they were a total nightmare.

Pairing an internal combustion engine with a battery and electric drive makes some sense to me. That’s retaining the same level of autonomy as internal combustion only and isn’t adding load to the electric grid.

Government forced grid dependent full electric appears mind numbingly stupid. I don’t want to go all tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but what am I missing? Is there some way to make the current push for grid dependent electric vehicles make sense?

Short answer - demand fuels expansion.

You are already seeing lots of interest and money flowing into nuclear. It will be interesting to see how that dynamic works out in the next decade.

Dan

 

[jimh406]

You are already seeing lots of interest and money flowing into nuclear. It will be interesting to see how that dynamic works out in the next decade.

It's not really for EV though. It's for the AI datacenters. SpaceX/xAI's plan to put datacenters in orbit sounds like an interesting idea.

There is one large AI datacenter planned in MT that is supposedly using small new nuclear systems to power them.

Obviously, both of those approaches require the powered devices to be in the same location which doesn't work for EVs.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

I know there are many on here much more knowledgeable than I on many topics, including electric power generation and transmission, thus the question.

To my stupid, simple self it seems totally crazy to think our current power grid is anywhere close to being able to handle the increased load of mass adoption of fully electric vehicles. Got to thinking about it because this morning we’re asked to reduce consumption of electricity because it’s cold. Just cold. Majority of residential systems here are the heat pump/“emergency” strip heat the power company has been pushing for many years, but when it gets really cold for a few days they can’t handle the demand.

Also appears to be a nearly insane security risk. If the majority of personal and business vehicles (saw an electric tri-axle Mack boom truck delivering sheetrock a few days ago) are electric grid dependent, an attack on a substation, or worse a power plant, would be unacceptably crippling to a large area.

Makes the battery fires look like one of the more minor issues. I’ve been to training classes for responding to lithium battery fires and for O&C investigation after, but it’s been a couple years so maybe they’ve come up with some miracle to handle them. Couple years ago they were a total nightmare.

Pairing an internal combustion engine with a battery and electric drive makes some sense to me. That’s retaining the same level of autonomy as internal combustion only and isn’t adding load to the electric grid.

Government forced grid dependent full electric appears mind numbingly stupid. I don’t want to go all tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but what am I missing? Is there some way to make the current push for grid dependent electric vehicles make sense?

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would point out that the plan is to transfer the national energy system from free enterprise (more or less) gas/oil/petroleum products to government controlled electricity.

Ever since the oil crisis of the '70's, in the US at least, there has been a lot of mistrust of Big Oil and letting the free market work. Government has played a role in this. I was astounded that the two largest oil companies in the world, Exxon and Mobil, were allowed to merge with nary a peep from the FTC or either party/either house of congress.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people continue to see government as the solution to each problem, in spite of more and more failures and abuses.

. . . stepping off soap box . . .

 

[PoTreeBoy]

It's not really for EV though. It's for the AI datacenters. SpaceX/xAI's plan to put datacenters in orbit sounds like an interesting idea.

There is one large AI datacenter planned in MT that is supposedly using small new nuclear systems to power them.

Obviously, both of those approaches require the powered devices to be in the same location which doesn't work for EVs.

In Memphis, I think they installed natural gas turbine generators to drive the data center. I don't think they got the emissions permits for this. Remember when gas was the 'clean fuel'? Now it's killing us to cook or heat our homes with it, but these datacenters are free to use it like there's an unlimited supply.

Which leads me to this, what are all these datacenters doing? These energy- hungry behemoths are going up everywhere.
Again, IF I were a conspiracy theorist I might suggest they are mining our every word, transaction, etc that passes through the internet. For what? We already see how it's being used to direct targeted advertising against us. To a small degree this can be beneficial, if we weren't getting bombarded with shotgunned crap. But, since big brother has started to demonstrate its ability and willingness to demand access to this information, where will it end?

Edit to add words to ponder
Dan 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

. . . picking self up after falling off soap box . . .
(If you don't see my posts on here after this, well . . .)

 

[GreensvilleJay]

sorry wolfy ,but electric heaters ,even the cheap ones are very efficient at converting electrons into heat. even the line losses aren't real losses as they generate heat, which after all is the name of the game.

The big problem is most people want to sit around in their t shirts when it's -20 outside, have every light in the house on, huge TVs, mega stereos, and other power hungry devices..
the real problem is the 'grid' .it cannot reliably supply the power 'we' demand of it. 200 amp service is the norm here BUT if required to have EV service, that add 100 amps. It's crazy to see 400 amp services going into new homes ! While night time rates are low now, when demand rises with recharging EVs overnight, then low night time rates will vanish. I've already seen the 'Time Of Use' times change 3 or 4 times since we got 'smart meters', each time the hours of cheaper rates got less and less. Every time we went to better light bulbs, out use went down(good) BUT the RATE went up , BAD....so paying same or more than before !
some think 'green' is good BUT until cheap batteries to store the energy AND cheap inverters to PUT it onto the grid are here, well 'green' isn't good.

 

[jimh406]

Data center don't like heat, fwiw. They make effort to evacuate it. They could convert this heat for other purposes.

Personally, I have LED lights and large LED TVs. Neither use very much AC even if they are on all of the time. Good warm color LED lights aren't cheap, but the power is.

My water heater is propane, and so is my heat if I'm not burning wood. Also, we haven't had -20 this year, so it's someone else's fault.

 

[TheOldHokie]

It's not really for EV though. It's for the AI datacenters. SpaceX/xAI's plan to put datacenters in orbit sounds like an interesting idea.

There is one large AI datacenter planned in MT that is supposedly using small new nuclear systems to power them.

Obviously, both of those approaches require the powered devices to be in the same location which doesn't work for EVs.

The modular nuclear idea is more than just data centers and Musk is a very long way from having data centers in space.

Dan

 

[jimh406]

The modular nuclear idea is more than just data centers and Musk is a very long way from having data centers in space.

Probably will be here before you know it. My guess is the plan was worked out before it was announced.

 

[NCL4701]

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people continue to see government as the solution to each problem, in spite of more and more failures and abuses.

Same.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against EV’s. I don’t have one for the same reason I don’t have a lot of other things; as they currently exist they’re not a good fit for my current needs and I don’t want one as a toy.

Government advocacy, incentivizing, and backhanded mandating by phasing in stricter and stricter emission restrictions; that’s what concerns me. Particularly when the infrastructure isn’t there to support the mass adoption they seem to want.

Not sure how to say much more on this topic without drifting into politics, so I think I’ll have to just sit back and watch.

I do appreciate all the thoughtful responses.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

sorry wolfy ,but electric heaters ,even the cheap ones are very efficient at converting electrons into heat. even the line losses aren't real losses as they generate heat, which after all is the name of the game.

The big problem is most people want to sit around in their t shirts when it's -20 outside, have every light in the house on, huge TVs, mega stereos, and other power hungry devices..
the real problem is the 'grid' .it cannot reliably supply the power 'we' demand of it. 200 amp service is the norm here BUT if required to have EV service, that add 100 amps. It's crazy to see 400 amp services going into new homes ! While night time rates are low now, when demand rises with recharging EVs overnight, then low night time rates will vanish. I've already seen the 'Time Of Use' times change 3 or 4 times since we got 'smart meters', each time the hours of cheaper rates got less and less. Every time we went to better light bulbs, out use went down(good) BUT the RATE went up , BAD....so paying same or more than before !
some think 'green' is good BUT until cheap batteries to store the energy AND cheap inverters to PUT it onto the grid are here, well 'green' isn't good.

I'm sure you know, but many don't. Yes, electric resistance heat is efficient, but the cycle efficiency is not. The old steam generating plants were what, around 30% efficient? With gas turbine and combined cycle, etc., I think it's possible to get ~50%. That compares to a basic gas furnace efficiency of 80%, and high efficiency furnaces of 90+%.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Same.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against EV’s. I don’t have one for the same reason I don’t have a lot of other things; as they currently exist they’re not a good fit for my current needs and I don’t want one as a toy.

Government advocacy, incentivizing, and backhanded mandating by phasing in stricter and stricter emission restrictions; that’s what concerns me. Particularly when the infrastructure isn’t there to support the mass adoption they seem to want.

Not sure how to say much more on this topic without drifting into politics, so I think I’ll have to just sit back and watch.

I do appreciate all the thoughtful responses.

Same here. An EV would meet my travel pattern. I need a small pickup. I might have sprung for a Maverick hybrid, had I known they were coming out, instead of my Nissan Frontier. Wouldn't even consider a Cybertruck, and this is coming from someone who seriously, I'm ashamed to admit, considered an AMC Pacer when they came out.

In my defense, I did shut down the salesman showing me a Pontiac Aztek before he could finish his sentence. I recall it looking uglier than this picture.

If I have offended anyone with this post well, I'd apologize, but you deserve it.

BTW, ever seen anybody actually haul anything in a Cybertruck?

 

[jimh406]

I'm ashamed to admit, considered an AMC Pacer when they came out.

In the late 70s/early 80s, a company in CA was converting Pacers to EVs. That would have been perfect for you.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

In the late 70s/early 80s, a company in CA was converting Pacers to EVs. That would have been perfect for you.

I was living in the 'Energy Capital of the World', Houston, at the time, working for an oil company. Probably would have been tarred, feathered and thrown out.