RIP Ford F150e (long live the F150)

[Sidekick]

Here are the US versions on fire now in NY. One after another are lighting up.

Fire breaks out again at battery storage facility in Warwick

It's the second fire there since 2023, the town supervisor says.

spectrumlocalnews.com

 

[Shawn T. W]

From my very limited experience, the best way to put out a lithium battery fire, is dump dirt on top of it!

 

[InTheWoods]

Physics is neither optimistic nor pessimistic. It just IS. Same for economics, by the way. Both say our present technology is not viable...

What do you mean by 'not viable'?

Just curious about the basis for your opinions...

 

[Mark_BX25D]

What do you mean by 'not viable'?

Lithium ion batteries currently cost too much, and don't store enough energy to make them a useful replacement for fossil fuels. The key factor there is a metric called, "energy density". Gas and diesel just pack far more energy into a tank than any battery can. You see this in the range limitations.

Hybrids get around this by cheating - they use fossil fuels.

We don't have any current or reasonably foreseen battery technology that can even come close to competing with fossil fuels for energy density. The best we have is PeeWee Herman versus Mike Tyson. But it's not even that close.

If this whole thing were being driven by real market considerations instead of misguided politics, there would not be a single EV on the road today, and Ford wouldn't be reeling from this financial disaster.

And then there's the pollution problem - LiON batteries are an environmental disaster. But I guess that's okay, because it's not happening in the U.S. Don't worry about it. Well, for now. Once we start piling up the dead batteries.... it's not going to be pretty.

Nor do EVs do anything to get us off of fossil fuels. They just move the problem somewhere else. The energy still has to come from somewhere.

 

[InTheWoods]

You of course are welcome to hold those opinions, but you've offered nothing concrete to sway mine. Last year, 1.1 million people bought Tesla's Model Y, making it the best selling car in the world. (The best-selling car, let alone the best selling EV). I guess you'd argue all these people are deluded, clueless or somehow misled?

The batteries in my EV provide 320 miles of range, and I wake up mornings to them being fully charged at an energy cost of $.03/mile. I've traveled across the country and never had a problem getting a charge. The car is fast and quiet. It has a low center of gravity and is more responsive by far than anything I've owned.

I'm an engineer - I've studied this inside and out. Are they going to save the planet? No. Do EV's have downsides? Yes. But they're 100% "viable" for some customers, and at the same time non-viable for you and others.

For me at least, it's beyond viable - My daily driver car is the most amazing and entirely satisfying machine I could afford. And it happens to have batteries instead of a gas tank.

 

[xrocketengineer]

Have you guys been watching on YouTube the Edison Motors saga? I am not a trucker and I know nothing about heavy trucks but I find this fascinating. It is a group of Canadian logging truckers that decided to start their own hybrid (diesel /electric) truck manufacturing/assembly company and all the technical and regulatory issues that they encounter along the way. They present a very interesting business/technical case on why this makes sense.
As a minimum it is entertaining.

 

[McMXi]

The batteries in my EV provide 320 miles of range, and I wake up mornings to them being fully charged at an energy cost of $.03/mile.

It's currently costing me $0.23/mile to drive my '02 F-250 around (fuel only), but there are a lot of other variables in the cost/benefit equation that are more significant to me than simply cost per mile. I don't see an EV in my future, but I'm certainly not opposed to the technology or what we learn from it.

There are thousands of examples of technology that took years to develop and perfect, or at least get to a level of performance and reliability that made the effort and cost of development worthwhile. EVs are no different in this regard, and I'm all for options even if the benefits are not obvious.

 

[InTheWoods]

...but there are a lot of other variables in the cost/benefit equation that are more significant to me than simply cost per mile...

Yes! And I'm not the guy trying to convince anyone that an EV has a lower total cost compared to ICE vehicles. Energy costs will probably be lower, but other costs (mainly depreciation) are likely to be higher.

 

[xrocketengineer]

Here is another application where battery technology makes sense.
A Battery-Electric Train That Never Has To Be Charged

 

[ken erickson]

Here in the upper midwest with cold winter climates and other factors EV's will cost more over the life of the vehicle compared to ice vehicles. Most comparisons that you find online assume a more temperate climate.

A few of "hidden" costs usually not mentioned are the increased insurance costs including home insurance if you are garage charging. Not all insurance companies build in a higher premium but some do when home charging.

The other one is the cost of tires over the lifespan of the vehicle. ( I used 200,000 miles).

 

[Sidekick]

Right now in cold weather at $2.49 a gallon my truck averages 22.6 mpg and costs me 11 cents a mile to drive. The average for the lightning in winter is approximately. 5 kwh per mile. My electricity rate is 33 cents a kwh delivered that would bring it to 16.5 cents a mile not counting the 6% loss from charging inefficiency. Not something that would work for my use.
The thing about EVs is they have been designed from the bottom up. Someone got the idea they could stack up thousands of flashlight cells as a power source. The whole battery technology is poorly thought out. I was involved in developing the first lithium cell jelly packs for Motorola phones over 30 years ago and not much has changed since them. Now that companies are pulling r&d funds from ev's hopefully they invest it in better alternatives engineered from the top down. Energy storage and creation should see improvements once AI replaces narrow minded engineering based on short term profits.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Our Car (well the wifes).
Bottom line for us:
Initial cost was the same if not a little cheaper than an ICE equipped the same.
Insurance is 1/3 of what here 2008 SRX cost us (that was a huge shock).

The maintenance costs are and will be next to nothing.
Our "fuel" cost for the month of November was $20.59, December looks to be the same.
That works out to 112 miles per gallon.
The miles per gallon will vary depending on Gasoline prices at the time.

I've yet to discover this "down side" to owning and driving that everyone talks about.
It's quick (ok, down right fast), it's very comfortable and fun to drive, and even more comfortable to ride in.
It doesn't stink up the garage.

And most important of all things,
My wife is super happy with it!

 

[jimh406]

First, there are good and bad of every profession including Engineers. Declaring a title doesn't mean anything on the internet when there is no way for us to decide if you are one of the good or the bad ones.

I have no idea what my cost per mile is for my vehicles. It's variable for a lot of reasons including cost per gallon of fuel. If I didn't have purposes for my vehicles and any vehicle could work, I can see how it could matter.

There isn't any reason to debate EVs as viable any more. We've had commercially successful EVs since 2007-2008. There was a company building EV conversions in the early 80s. I don't think the battery technology is advancing that much but bells and whistles have. I don't want to pay for it as a taxpayer when I can't even use it.

The EV charging stations should be moved to the back of the lots. I don't believe you should have extra privileges for buying one. That being said, I regularly park near the end of lots, so don't take it as punishment for driving EVs. It would also make more room to add the electricity needed to charge them, and also provide more spaces up front for handicapped people who need to be close. Also, a novel idea, make them accessible for larger EVs or EVs with trailers if you are going to build them.

 

[InTheWoods]

First, there are good and bad of every profession including Engineers. Declaring a title doesn't mean anything on the internet when there is no way for us to decide if you are one of the good or the bad ones.

Fair enough. Just making a point that I'm at least capable of doing first grade math. And if someone is flat out saying out 'EV's aren't viable' and offering no basis, I'm one person that's not swayed.

 

[InTheWoods]

...I've yet to discover this "down side" to owning and driving...

1. Charging on the road requires more planning/forethought than ICE cars.
2. If you're on the road in one of the less populus parts of the country, chargers get hard to find - not impossible, but it takes effort and can be a stresser.
3. Depreciation on an EV is generally higher than a comparable ICE car.

Depending on your use case, you may never experience these things though. But I'm pretty sure they're true for a lot of folks.

 

[Poohbear]

the lithium batteries should come down in price with the up coming technology of removing the lithium from the oil/gas wells salt water waste. Im not sure where the tech development is but a county over from me a plant is being built to do just this.
I hope it gets developed soon as I own mineral rights in the Smackover Formation which supposedly has a high concentration of lithium in the salt water

 

[Shawn T. W]

I don't believe most people take in the cost of the charger, and infrastructure if they are charging at home, amortized over the time/miles of use ...

For a new building, it may not be a lot extra, if it's part of "the plan", but adding in to existing home, and you want to use more than a 120 volt plug ... It may depend on what size the service is coming in, if it's even possible to add, without upgrading the service from the pole ...

In Vermont I had 2 different houses with 60 amp service ... One had 100 amp, which was considered "modern" back in the 90's ... Both my Arizona house, and my Missouri house have 200 amp service, some go up to 400 amp I've heard ... Which also have an increased monthly hook up charge ...

 

[Mark_BX25D]

You of course are welcome to hold those opinions, but you've offered nothing concrete to sway mine.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were asking an honest question. Everything I said is easily verified.

Last year, 1.1 million people bought Tesla's Model Y, making it the best selling car in the world.

Ah, of COURSE! Popular opinion is ALWAYS right! People are NEVER swayed by advertising and hype into making poor decisions!

And of course, the buying public is always very far-sighted and well-informed!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I don't believe most people take in the cost of the charger, and infrastructure if they are charging at home, amortized over the time/miles of use ...

For a new building, it may not be a lot extra, if it's part of "the plan", but adding in to existing home, and you want to use more than a 120 volt plug ... It may depend on what size the service is coming in, if it's even possible to add, without upgrading the service from the pole ...

In Vermont I had 2 different houses with 60 amp service ... One had 100 amp, which was considered "modern" back in the 90's ... Both my Arizona house, and my Missouri house have 200 amp service, some go up to 400 amp I've heard ... Which also have an increased monthly hook up charge ...

Funny fact the "level 1 (120 vac) and level 2 chargers (240 vac)" are in the car not in the power / charging station.
All the power charging station does is monitor and control the 120, 240 vac power sent to the car.
Now the same is not true for super chargers, they shove high voltage DC into the batteries.

Our charging station was $400 and $250 in wiring to feed it off the subpanel, that I had already planned to add it when we needed it.

But yes if your home was not designed for it to be added or you have to pay to have it installed it can get rather costly and should be factored into the buying / operating costs.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Oh, sorry. I thought you were asking an honest question. Everything I said is easily verified.




Ah, of COURSE! Popular opinion is ALWAYS right! People are NEVER swayed by advertising and hype into making poor decisions!

And of course, the buying public is always very far-sighted and well-informed!

Please, Take it down a couple notches...
Everyone including you needs to stay civil in the conversation.

We get your opinion on it that EV's are bad and people with EV's are just misinformed.