LA211 hoses, what fitting?

[thenextman]

The red capped hose that runs from the tractor loader controls to the loader hardline got a little crack in it. I took the hose to my local Kubota dealer and they made me a new one. I didn't look at it closely, got it home and hooked it up. It leaks from behind the nut on the loader side.

If I compare the old hose and the new hose; the old hose has a kind of internal "cup" in the fitting. The new hose is just a straight down cone shape without the cup.

It's hard to see in the picture but the old hose is the brass one (on top) and the replacement is the bottom.



I don't know squat about hydraulic fittings; but the new hose appears to be a 3/8" Female JIC Swivel. And that matches the spec when I look up hoses on e.g. Messicks. But it's clearly not the same as the old one, and I don't know what kind of fitting the old one is. JIS?

Can anyone shed some light? I'm sure the fitting is wrong, but I can't understand how the dealership would've messed that up. I'm 99.9% certain the hardline on the loader are factory. The serial number of the loader is 307XX.

I'm tempted to just take it back or take both hoses to NAPA and ask what they think. But I'm very willing to accept I'm just doing something wrong....

Thanks!!

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Surely the old one is the bottom one, I see a crack in the flare. I've had to re-tighten new swivels after a few cycles, maybe cheap imports? That top flare looks ok, did the threads match ok? If tightening it didn't fix it, how does the male end look?

 

[thenextman]

Surely the old one is the bottom one, I see a crack in the flare. I've had to re-tighten new swivels after a few cycles, maybe cheap imports? That top flare looks ok, did the threads match ok? If tightening it didn't fix it, how does the male end look?

Nope, the new one is the bottom (with the crack).

The old hose is the top one. The fittings were fine, it the hose itself had a break in it.

The new hose is the bottom one. It wasn't cracked when I got it; I probably over tightened it.

The male ends are identical on both.

So, the question is: are these fittings functionally the same? They do not look the same internally. I hooked up the new hose, it was dripping fluid from behind the nut, so I tightened it up some more and that's probably when it cracked.

Thanks!

 

[thenextman]

Because, it's also possible that the fittings are functionally the same and I just cracked the new one by over tightening it in the first place, and that's where the leak came from. But I don't think so. The old one was cranked down pretty hard.

 

[thenextman]

What I think is, the dealership gave me the wrong fitting and as soon as I started to tighten it, it cracked the flare which caused the leak.

I'm just struggling to understand how the Kubota dealership would make such a mistake.

I'm finding it impossible to determine the spec for the fittings and I'm confused about the difference between JIS and JIC, and which one is specced versus what they gave me.

 

[TheOldHokie]

What I think is, the dealership gave me the wrong fitting and as soon as I started to tighten it, it cracked the flare which caused the leak.

I'm just struggling to understand how the Kubota dealership would make such a mistake.

I'm finding it impossible to determine the spec for the fittings and I'm confused about the difference between JIS and JIC, and which one is specced versus what they gave me.

JIS uses a 30` seat angle and BSPP thread.
JIC uses a 37` seat angle and UNF thread
They wont even mate up.

You are not doing anything wrong. Those fittings are not compatible. That old fitting looks like it might be an NPT swivel. Post a pic of the male fitting on the hard line. I would not be at all surprised by a counter man screwing that up

Dan

 

[thenextman]

JIS uses a 30` seat angle and BSPP thread.
JIC uses a 37` seat angle and UNF thread
They wont even mate up.

You are not doing anything wrong. Those fittings are not compatible. That old fitting looks like it might be an NPT swivel. Post a pic of the male fitting on the hard line. I would not be at all surprised by a counter man screwing that up

Dan

This is the other side of the fitting

 

[TheOldHokie]

This is the other side of the fitting

View attachment 180438

That is a male JIC. I am confused about what was being screwed into what. Do you own a caliper? The top fitting in yoir picture looks like JIC and the bottom one (orange paint) looks like a NPT swivel.

Dan

 

[thenextman]

That is a male JIC. I am confused about what was being screwed into what. Do you own a caliper? The top fitting in yoir picture looks like JIC and the bottom one looks like NPT.

Dan

Thanks, that's very helpful.

In my OP, the brass connection on top is what was screwed onto that male. It was fine but the hose leaked.

With no knowledge of different fittings, and no way to figure out the fittings from the information online, I took that old hose to the dealer and asked them to make me a new one.

The new one is the in my OP, the silver connection on the bottom with the cracks.

Fundamentally, the new one and the old one look different internally, but I have no idea if:

- It's the wrong part, fundamentally incompatible, i.e. the counter guy screwed up
- It's not the same part, but the sealing surface is compatible, and I overtightened it and cracked it

I just want it to be right, so the answer determines what I do next

- I take the hoses to NAPA and ask them to figure it out. Maybe they will do better, maybe not
- I shlep back to the dealership and ask them to fix it, but are they wrong or did I make a mistake? I don't have a good relationship with the dealer and I'd rather not drive all the way back there. If it's there mistake, I'd rather just send an email and complain (not the first problem I've had with them, although my first interaction with the parts department)

I'm frustrated because I don't seem to able to just say "this is the type of fitting I need" (type, not size, the threads and etc seem perfect on both hoses i.e. the both screw on just fine)

Thanks for listening!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks, that's very helpful.

In my OP, the brass connection on top is what was screwed onto that male. It was fine but the hose leaked.

With no knowledge of different fittings, and no way to figure out the fittings from the information online, I took that old hose to the dealer and asked them to make me a new one.

The new one is the in my OP, the silver connection on the bottom with the cracks.

Fundamentally, the new one and the old one look different internally, but I have no idea if:

- It's the wrong part, fundamentally incompatible, i.e. the counter guy screwed up
- It's not the same part, but the sealing surface is compatible, and I overtightened it and cracked it

I just want it to be right, so the answer determines what I do next

- I take the hoses to NAPA and ask them to figure it out. Maybe they will do better, maybe not
- I shlep back to the dealership and ask them to fix it, but are they wrong or did I make a mistake? I don't have a good relationship with the dealer and I'd rather not drive all the way back there. If it's there mistake, I'd rather just send an email and complain (not the first problem I've had with them, although my first interaction with the parts department)

I'm frustrated because I don't seem to able to just say "this is the type of fitting I need" (type, not size, the threads and etc seem perfect on both hoses i.e. the both screw on just fine)

Thanks for listening!

No offense but they do not screw on fine. Very murch the opposite.

My guess is you need hoses with female JIC swivel ends and what you got was female NPT swivels. One easy way that could happen is if they made the new hoses and some numb nutz pulled the wrong ends. Its easy to ID thes fittings. Measure the OD of the male fitting, 9/16 = 3/8 JIC

Dan

PS > Thats not brass - its steel with yellow chrome anti-corrosion plating

 

[thenextman]

No offense but they do not screw on fine. Very murch the opposite.

My guess is you need hoses with female JIC swivel ends and what you got was female NPT swivels. One easy way that could happen is if they made the new hoses and some numb nutz pulled the wrong ends. Its easy to ID thes fittings. Measure the OD of the male fitting, 9/16 = 3/8 JIC

Dan

PS > Thats not brass - its steel with yellow chrome anti-corrosion plating

Thanks for the corrections. What you wrote sounds good. I will go to NAPA with this information and both the old and dealer hose and see what they say.

The thing is - the new one does screw on fine. It threads on perfectly, tightens up by hand easily; then grab the hardline fitting with a wrench and tighten the female side good and snug. Honestly there's no problem.

 

[Dustyx2]

It's easy to over tighten and damage JIC fittings. One that size is probably hand tight plus one flat of the hex. If it leaks, give it a little more. The picture had me confused too. The bottom one looks like the old one with orange paint on it.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Here's a reference of hydraulic fitting dimensions

https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/thread_guide.pdf

Sometimes you need calipers and thread gages. But you'll notice #6 JIC thread is 9/16"-18; I bought a 9/16 NF bolt and nut to use as a gage. JIC is commonly used by Kubota, but often they use a #8 swivel on #6 hose.

 

[dirtydeed]

I'd suggest using hydraulic sealant on the threads as well. Loctite or permatex hydraulic sealant.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I'd suggest using hydraulic sealant on the threads as well. Loctite or permatex hydraulic sealant.

That is a JIC male and a NPSM female. The threads are different dimensions and pitch. Regardles of how it feels fo you they do not mate correctly and are mechanically unsound. Not to mention the crack

@PoTreeBoy gently corrected me wirh his comment that Kubota uses JIC-08 hose ends so that thread is .750-16 snd a 1/2 NPSM swivel would be ..823-18. Can you tighten them? Probably but they are cross threaded and not even close to being right let alone "perfect".

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

I'd suggest using hydraulic sealant on the threads as well. Loctite or permatex hydraulic sealant.

JIC fittings and NPT swivels do not seal on the threads. Thread sealant is useless and a very poor idea.

Dan

 

[PoTreeBoy]

That is a JIC male and a NPSM female. The threads are different dimensions and pitch. Regardles of how it feels fo you they do not mate correctly and are mechanically unsound. Not to mention the crack

@PoTreeBoy gently corrected me wirh his comment that Kubota uses JIC-08 hose ends so that thread is .750-16 snd a 1/2 NPSM swivel would be ..823-18. Can you tighten them? Probably but they are cross threaded and not even close to being right let alone "perfect".

Dan

It wasn't meant as a correction , I was just pointing out, to new users, that Kubota often 'upsizes' swivels so the swivel size # may not match the hose size #. This is a BX; I think they are plumbed with 1/4" hose, so that may well be a #6 JIC male fitting. I would have to break out my 9/16" bolt (where did I put it?) to tell.

In any case, OP's swivels (I won't call them nuts here ), don't match.

 

[TheOldHokie]

It wasn't meant as a correction , I was just pointing out, to new users, that Kubota often 'upsizes' swivels so the swivel size # may not match the hose size #. This is a BX; I think they are plumbed with 1/4" hose, so that may well be a #6 JIC male fitting. I would have to break out my 9/16" bolt (where did I put it?) to tell.

In any case, OP's swivels (I won't call them nuts here ), don't match.

Dont be shy - you caught me with brain in neutral

The swivels clearly have different seats. The JIC swivel has a concave tapered seat. The other swivel has an inverted cone seat which indicates NPSM. I suspect wedging that inverted cone up against the nose of the JIC fitting produced enough radial force to split the fitting.

Dan

 

[dirtydeed]

JIC fittings and NPT swivels do not seal on the threads. Thread sealant is useless and a very poor idea.

Dan

maybe not for swivels, but NPT does need sealant.

 

[TheOldHokie]

maybe not for swivels, but NPT does need sealant.

Yes it does as does BSPT (R) thread.

Technically NPTF does not but its still commonly used.

Pips swivels are an entirely different design and sealant is not appropriate and should not be used

The fittings being discussed here are JIC and they never need sealant.

Dan