B8200 leaking front axle

[Bigearl]

Hey guys what’s up? I haven’t been on here for a while as my kubota has been dominating all this snow we have in Minnesota.

Anyways I ran my b8200 for about 2 to 2.5 hours last Sunday and after I parked it I noticed a puddle on the floor about the size of my fist.

A couple months ago i had a bunch of drama with this tractor but i got everything figured out and in the process the tractor got all new fluids front to back. The front axle was filled with 80-90w gear oil. When I say filled I mean it was filled to the brim. Now this leak appears to be at the seal of the front output driveshaft where it meets the outer sheeth or tube. I also noticed some seepage up around the axle pivot pin where it mounts to the frame. I saw a similar post with the same possible issue.

Now did I simply overfill the axle from the first place and the pressure build up is causing leakage?

Or should I look into replacing the seal as it has lost some of its spring and seems to be a bit sloppy.

Lastly I checked my fluid level in the axle and it is lower due to the leakage, I can see about half the axle shaft and the top layer of fluid was a bit foamy. Should I leave it be or top it off again? I have read that some axles are vented with a breather, I can not seem to locate any type of vent.

Thanks!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I would bring it up to the proper level, if it still leaks you probably damaged the seal, then replace it.

 

[torch]

Now did I simply overfill the axle from the first place and the pressure build up is causing leakage?

Or should I look into replacing the seal as it has lost some of its spring and seems to be a bit sloppy.

Lastly I checked my fluid level in the axle and it is lower due to the leakage, I can see about half the axle shaft and the top layer of fluid was a bit foamy. Should I leave it be or top it off again? I have read that some axles are vented with a breather, I can not seem to locate any type of vent.

I think the top of the differential is above the height of the fill plug on the axle, creating an inherent air space. The gears dip down into the oil, and carry it along as they rotate above the liquid level. Some of that oil undoubtedly could fling off at high speed, but this is a tractor; how fast could those gears be spinning?

For oil to leak out the top from around the pivot pin suggests there was a lot of foaming. Excessive foaming may be caused by water in the gear lube. Any sign of emulsified water in there?

I would also be concerned that the casting might be cracked near the pivot pin, but it's possible there is a vent cast in there somewhere, or the casting has a small porosity near the pivot pin, or that the oil you saw was flung from the driveshaft seal when it rotated. I would certainly examine things very closely to verify what is going on up there.

If all else fails, you could switch to a marine-grade outboard motor gear oil. They are a bit more expensive, but have anti-foaming agents and are more tolerant of water contamination.

 

[Bigearl]

There should be no water as the case was drained and filled within the last couple of months. When looking in the fill port the very top layer of oil was foamy. I don’t think the axle is cracked as there was only a small bit of oil oozing down the side of the differential, not even enough to drip. That oil did appear to look black and maybe it’s old engine oil that was puddled somewhere (my oil pressure indicator had a prior leak).

Anyways back to the seal, is that the only seal from the environment? From what I can tell it is, and behind it within the tube is oil per se. When I said the seal is sloppy I mean I can easily pop it in or out with just my finger. It’s very loose fitting.

I’m gonna wait until plow season is over and I’ll switch out the seal. Are the drive pins easily pushed out when breaking the joint? Any tips?

Thanks guys!

 

[torch]

If it's the seal I'm thinking of, around the driveshaft, before the front u-joint, then I think it's more of a dust seal. If it's the one around the spline shaft sticking out from the differential, then that's the oil seal that would retain gear lube. (Maybe someone more familiar with the B8200 could jump in here -- I'm assuming it's similar to the B7100)

Of course, if that is gear lube leaking out of the driveshaft seal, I guess that means the spline shaft seal must be leaking and filled the housing around the u-joint. On the plus side, the u-joint will be well-lubricated!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

When you unbolted the three bolts and removed the drive shaft cover did fluid pour out?

How was the gasket on the cover?

If not then the seals not leaking.
If it did was it black or fluid colored?
Also if the seal is so loose that it just falls out then put a little RTV on it and reinsert it.


The pivot point has 4 O-rings that seal it.

A leaking front crank seal or leaking oil pan will flow right down on top of the drive shaft cover.

You need to seal up the drive shaft cover when you reinstall it or water and dirt can get in there.

 

[Bigearl]

I haven’t taken the three bolts or the cover off yet. The seal that I was talking about originally was the dumb little dust seal at the end of the protective tube. I hadn’t looked deep enough into the schematics. The seal inside the cover was ordered today along with a couple pins and an o ring. I only want to open it up once so I’m hoping the seal is the issue. On Sunday the entire protective tube was wet with gear oil and running back down to the cover. Laying on my back in the wet cold garage isn’t always the funniest thing to do. After I get the new seal in I’ll re assemble and yes I’ll put some rtv on that old dust seal at the tube end.

I may dig into to axle pivot bolt or I’ll continue to monitor. The tough thing is it’s very hard to see the top side of the housing as it’s tucked up in between the frame rails. Like I said when I got the tractor there was a lot of black oil on the bottom side of the motor as the oil pressure sending unit was allowing oil to pass through which in turn would ooze down over the starter and down the side of the motor. From what I can tell the engine is not using any oil.

Aside from condensation, I’m still confused how water would get into the front axle housing...

 

[Bigearl]

I finally got my new seal and roll pins. Took housing off and a bunch of gear oil came pouring out. Once I got to the old seal the inner diameter had a big tear.

So I then struggled for a good hour trying to get the new seal in. It’s being a royal pain and I gave up for the night. By hand you can sort of get it engaged but the inner lip seems to want to fold in on itself causing the seal spring to pop off. Every time I pull it back off the spring is half off.

I tried just placing it near the collar and then tapping it on using a deep socket, that seems to be working but again I can see the inner lip isn’t seating right as there are high and low spots.

Can you guys give me some pointers on gettting the new seal installed correctly which may been been the problem all along. Aside from that the job is going good. I’m hoping to get thing finished up and then get it out of my garage until fall again.

Oh and I even thought of maybe trying the seal without the spring but I decided to not risk it, I want to do it right.

 

[Bigearl]

Bump, I need some help on this guys...

 

[D2Cat]

What is causing the inner part of the seal to roll? Is it snagging on one of the splines?

A couple of ideas. 1. Put a light coat of grease on the inner part of the seal.

2. Take an alum can, like a pop/beer can, cut a piece off of the side that is wide enough to go in past the splines on the shaft and long enough to wrap around the shaft with a slight overlap. Then roll the alum to shape the shaft and insert the circular alum piece into the seal leaving the seal so when inserted the alum will be on the splines. Then put the seal in place and squarely insert it.

 

[Bigearl]

The splines are not the problem as the OD is smaller. It’s the step up onto the smooth bore shaft.

I had a thought this morning while eating a ham and cheese omlet. The front diff still has oil in it, the fill and drain plugs are still in place. When I push the seal in it feels like a plunger. I am going to try draining all fluid and leaving plugs out to see if I am right. Seems weird but it’s worth a shot. It’s like it hydro locks.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Post some pictures of what you're working with!

It's the quickest way to get to the bottom of things.

Could be the seal is wrong.

 

[eserv]

The splines are not the problem as the OD is smaller. It’s the step up onto the smooth bore shaft.

I had a thought this morning while eating a ham and cheese omlet. The front diff still has oil in it, the fill and drain plugs are still in place. When I push the seal in it feels like a plunger. I am going to try draining all fluid and leaving plugs out to see if I am right. Seems weird but it’s worth a shot. It’s like it hydro locks.

There should be a bushing on that shaft that is removable and goes inside the seal. remove it, then install the seal and then push the bushing back in.

 

[Bigearl]

I’m pretty sure it was part of the spline shaft, but maybe it was a bushing. I didn’t try very hard to get it out as i thought it was part of the shaft. With the big square corner the seal would constantly fold over itself on the ID.

I ended up using electrical tape to make a ramp from the spline section up to the smooth bore. I re packed the inner ID and spring with sticky bearing grease, and I think I successfully got the seal properly seated. I used the old seal and a big socket to tap it into place. Looking back the pop can trick may have worked well too.

Now time will tell if I did fix this pesky leak. Thanks again guys.

 

[zoombats]

I was working with my B8200 on my island building project and suffered a catastrophic breakdown with my front universal. It exploded and came off the spline. The joint case was ripped to pieces and the universal is in two pieces. The front piece is still attached to the shape but the shaft is quite sloppy in the case so I guess the two bearings are shot. The front left wheel initially locked up and the right wheel moves indicating full function at the diff case. I pulled the left wheel hub off to reveal the bottom of the bevel gear. I guess I should drop the whole axle assembly and open up the diff first or should I work outboard back to the diff starting at the bevel bearings? I just installed a new hydraulic pump and got that running and now this. Not getting much work done. I"m hoping I can get all the parts I am fearing I will need.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I was working with my B8200 on my island building project and suffered a catastrophic breakdown with my front universal. It exploded and came off the spline. The joint case was ripped to pieces and the universal is in two pieces. The front piece is still attached to the shape but the shaft is quite sloppy in the case so I guess the two bearings are shot. The front left wheel initially locked up and the right wheel moves indicating full function at the diff case. I pulled the left wheel hub off to reveal the bottom of the bevel gear. I guess I should drop the whole axle assembly and open up the diff first or should I work outboard back to the diff starting at the bevel bearings? I just installed a new hydraulic pump and got that running and now this. Not getting much work done. I"m hoping I can get all the parts I am fearing I will need.

I personally would pull all of it apart and check everything!

 

[zoombats]

Thanks Wolf. I got the axle apart and the bearing from the right axle was in pieces in the diff. The pinion gear at the front u joint was flopping around in it's case and I got all new bearings for that piece. My big concern is the shims 22,23,24 on the drawings were not shipped. How do I tell the need for the shims? I think the originals are reusable and were part shims not whole ones. I think the bevel gears and the diff, spider gears and all are ok. Keeping fingers crossed for a reinstall tomorrow to get back to work.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Thanks Wolf. I got the axle apart and the bearing from the right axle was in pieces in the diff. The pinion gear at the front u joint was flopping around in it's case and I got all new bearings for that piece. My big concern is the shims 22,23,24 on the drawings were not shipped. How do I tell the need for the shims? I think the originals are reusable and were part shims not whole ones. I think the bevel gears and the diff, spider gears and all are ok. Keeping fingers crossed for a reinstall tomorrow to get back to work.

You should be able to reuse the old shims, but they may or may not be the right fit, as that's what there job is.

The WSM should tell you how to check and adjust the shims.

 

[zoombats]

Thanks Wolfman. I would really like to get a WSM and will try to get one from my dealer. It's a long weekend here so I am stalled at the moment. I need the "O"ring for the diff case halves as it got stretched as I soaked it in diesel. The bearing bits in the diff were the two bearings for the pinion shaft which have been replaced and I am not sure as to the finished depth of the pinion. I brought the whole shooting match off the island and have it in my shop now on a bench instead of a saw horse in the sand. I think I will take the next two days and use your advice to take the entire thing apart. I think I should replace the big bearings(17) on the ends of the diff for the axle splines. I guess I have to take the bevel bearing housing off, pull the individual shaft and bash the bearing and races out from the ends?