What if

[skeets]

Lil Bro and I were having a discussion about world events and of course somebody has to bring up Mad Maxx. He said you have nothing to worry about that little diesel will run on anything. And on the way home I started to wonder,, what if some cataclysmic event would occur and fuel was not readily available other than low sulfur fuel this motor was designed to run on,,, What else could a person run,, yes I know they old diesels could run off just about anything you could inject into the cylinders, but what about the new ones???

 

[Bulldog]

With these new engines I would be willing to bet you'll be back to the old Briggs & Stratton, a wheelbarrow and a shovel.

Damn Zombies!!!

 

[CaveCreekRay]

We must have banged our heads in the same place. I have wondered the same thing... Here is what my marginally functional pea-sized brain came up with.

In a SHTF scenario, you are not going to have much access to "deep fryer" clean outs because no one will be cooking much. For some time, pretty much everything will stop. Just being seen out on an operable tractor will likely make you a target. The one exception is using the FEL to erect roadblocks in your town or neighborhood. Closing off roads will be an essential part of early security measures. Whether on the edge of town or in the country, you will have to work with your neighbors. Survival alone only works in Hollyweird.

I have a small supply of diesel but I have 5-6 "surge" cans that are clean and dry now but can be filled up in the early hours of an emergency. While other people are trying to find canisters, I hope to be filling mine up.

After the "real stuff" goes extinct, and getting more becomes impossible, I suppose as a last ditch effort, you could try and burn kerosene if you have any. If I had motor oil, I would try and cut motor oil with whatever kerosene I had. We have read on these forums about motors going goofy after running on their own crankcase oil. If I was down to my last can of diesel, I might use that to cut some new oil if I had any. After that, I am out of ideas.

Any chemical engineers out there?

One thought --and this is just a prayer really. After the SHTF blows over, or at least stabilizes where society becomes reasonably safe to be seen on a working tractor, I would hope that supply lines start to re-establish and fuel becomes available, at least in limited quantities. At that point, having an engine that has not been running on garlic flavored olive oil for the last 20 hours will make your Kubota a very valuable machine. People will still need tractor work done and that will be a great barter item to have.

Might be a good reason to have some Cetane booster on hand.

Lets hope Mad Max stays on the silver screen... But it doesn't hurt to make plans.

 

[coachgeo]

My guess is lots and lots of diesel that might could burn in a low sulfur diesel fired engine will be available. Add either veg. oil, Motor Oil, trans Fluid, hydraulic oil etc. for more lubricity. remember SULFUR IS ADDED to diesel. So now they just add less.

Here is where you get it- The neighbor(s) trash. You collect everyone's plastic, you then basically distill it. Search [ Plastic, pyrolysis, Diesel ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbNou1lXBck

 

[sheepfarmer]

Gee, this is depressing, kind of like that cabin fever thread about running your bota in outer space. Me, I start to think I should track down some harness, one of my hayburners was broke to drive as a youngster, wonder if he remembers?

 

[CaveCreekRay]

Its terribly depressing.

The only thing more depressing is finding yourself in that situation completely unprepared. Having a horse to plow with is a great back-up. Without that option, I try and come up with alternative ideas. None are permanently sustainable, even plastic stills.

I can get a huge amount of work done for 5 gallons of diesel. If I can grab 15-20 gallons as the poo is hitting the fan, I have options.

Here in the desert, water is critical, even in winter. I put in a well. With a water table at 65', I can bail it up if need be. One gallon of gas represents over a month of well operation for pretty normal life in the house. With 100 gallons of storage gasoline (and loads of StaBil) I have options. With 1000 gallons of propane, at least I can cook and heat water.

This whole mental exercise is simply to get you across the great unknown and to whatever society reconstitutes itself on the other side. Society is both fragile and resilient. Those with no plan or idea are toast. Those with some "options" are far better off.

I hope!

 

[DADL3901]

These questions all came up in the 70's when there was a great deal of canning and storing food for the great catastrophe.

When ever asked what I was doing, I had one reply! "My stash never goes bad, lasts forever and with it I can get anything I need from you. AMMO..."

 

[skeets]

LOL,, yeah it was a big thing being prepared for what ever back in the 70s and in the 2000s as well thing is everything people were doing is what I grew up doing long before that. In the fall when we came home from school on Friday we always went around back of the house,,, if there was boxes and baskets there was no games over the week end cause we knew what we would be doing all weekend with Mom, washing jars pealing and cleaning what ever was in the baskets and then to the canning,, I have to say as a kid we never went hungry the shelves in the old coal cellar were full and with the taters apples and everything else,,, life was good...


Now back to the question now we have cooked plastic bottles filtered all kinds of oils, but how long would my poor little Butoa run on this stuff??

 

[CaveCreekRay]

I heard that comment from a relative once who had a bad leg and poor health. I suppose there is some truth to that but the activity does hold a fair amount of risk. A gun does make the holder a qualified shooter.

I spent ten years with the Federal Government working undercover. I had no investigative authority. No powers of arrest. I was trained to do one thing: Shoot to kill. At my best I placed three rounds in a simu-bots head in 6 tenths of a second with a laser pistol. A real gun would have taken at least a second. Maybe two. Three rounds on a fast draw, emergency magazine reload, three more center of mass in seven seconds. It takes some measure of training to reach that level of competence.

I am maybe half as fast today, but I am still faster than most of the folks who are going to wander around plundering as long as they have gasoline in their truck.

This is precisely why, despite what you see on TV or read on the 'Net, anyone trying to "bug out" or make a break for it when the SHTF is going to die on the road. Criminals will start road blocks and simply rob people as they drive up. Any criminals driving around to gather "supplies" will likely not return home. Anyone driving through a neighborhood who isn't recognized will be treated as hostile. Abandoned vehicles will make usable road blocks.

It'll be Mad Max for a couple of weeks, maybe a month. Those who survive will bug in and lay low in defense of their families and property. Driving around in a Orange Tractor will be an unwise and potentially unhealthy activity -except for security measures like putting up roadblocks. Then they will scurry away to remain hidden until relative safety returns.

The key for everyone to realize is this: 90% of the population has less that $50 in their wallet or purse, less than a weeks worth of food in the house, and well below a half tank of gas in their vehicle. The money and gas will be gone in 24-48 hours as they drive around looking for resources on empty shelves that are long gone. If the electricity is out (EMP -my biggest fear) the water supply is down for a year or more. Six days without water and you are on your back and near death, if not already gone. God forbid anything like an EMP occurs, a month afterwards, most of the population will be gone. At least 90% of it and most of that in major cities. I have friends who have "friends" who know exactly what the government knows. If anyone wants to know more about this stuff, I'll share what I have. At this point, probably no one is reading this post.

Those of you living out in the farms and woodlands are in the best shape of all -IF you have a plan and some additional supplies. Consider them insurance. You hope they are never needed but, if they are, they are worth their weight in gold. Hurricanes and earthquakes? The same plans and preparations really come in handy then too. Its all about being able to be self sufficient for a period of time. The longer, the better.

One bad thing about an EMP is, no more Internet. No more Orange TT!!!
Another good reason it might be good to have that Kubota MSM in hand on a shelf in your barn...

I am not trying to scare anyone. But, think of how close we are to serious danger in this country right now. Israel is about to slam Iran before they get the bomb. Iranian funded ISIS fighters are already in the country planning terrorist attacks thanks to ZERO defense of our southern border. Iran could have Pakistani tactical nukes in a container ship off our East coast, ready to launch an EMP strike. Did you know the US Government has built and installed anti-ballistic missile systems along the northeast coast around major cities? That reflects their measure of that very threat.

Back to napping...

 

[D2Cat]

skeets, I had (sold this week) a 1984 Ford F250 with 6.9. It had two fuel tanks.

I have a barrel I put used motor oil in, mix in diesel in proportion to ambient temperature, filter with a Frantz (yes, toilet paper filter) and put filtered mixture in the back tank.

Always start off on front tank. After a couple of minutes switch to back tank. Come back home, switch to front tank 5-10 miles out. This leave pure diesel for starting.

Been doing it since diesel prices went crazy about 5 years ago.

The truck had been setting for 2 years with a bale stinger in the back. Batteries were no good. I put one 650CCA battery on the pass. side and it fired right up. Even surprised me!!

This is an '84 and I would not do this to a newer style injection pump. But there are ways to get results with unusual methods.

 

[CaveCreekRay]

Friend in Ohio (you know... out by Maine!) bought a multi-fuel Deuce 'n a half. He also got the manuals for that thing and it will run on just about any flammable liquid. Fun little truck and parts are plentiful.

 

[skeets]

I have heard of these multi fuel motors but don't know how they work

 

[sawmill]

Skeets, you could always poach a couple of the neighbors hogs and render out the fat and run it in your bota.

 

[Tooljunkie]

I live in the country, no power, and its a short amount of time and all fuel is gone. Using it to make power for cooking and lights.
Water for me can be got with a bucket.
Food is wandering around just beyond the back 40.
Making our own distillates would be a challenge. Do-able if we had any clue how.
Even if we all made some sort of preparation, how long do we prepare for? Weeks or years??
Weeks, i can handle that. Years, who knows. Biggest concern-winter.

 

[Russell King]

How long will the battery last to power the computer that controls your newer tractor's vital components that allow it to start and run? I guess you can figure out how to overcome most of those if you have some understanding of what control's what.

How do you start a diesel without a battery powered starter - park at top of the hill and hope it starts every time, rig some manual cranking system? Does not sound too feasible.

 

[cabu]

If the diesel is gone...

Short term: There is some heating oil left.

Long term: Maybe you have read about the groupe of people calling themself prepares or the others survivors. The prepares store food and other stuff to stay alive until the civilisation get back working again. The survivors think in longer terms. It is more grouping up to be able to defend themself and to be able to produce everything they need by themself.
So if there will be some sort of Zombieland in the future, all technologie will be gone in the long term, which you are not able to make by yourself, or by your groupe. If you think about only one day in your life, what stuff you eat, need and use, I mean everything, like clothes, powered tools, simple tools like a spanner, screws, everything - you could get an idea that diesel for your orange friend is the smallest problem...
Or say it this way: Try to make a hammer. Find ore, get it heated up, make steel but no iron, get it blacksmithed and formed (with the hole) and finally put a stick to it... Meanwhile you are buisy and making a lot of noise, you have to look around if something is looking after you. Got the point of living in Zombiland?

 

[CaveCreekRay]

Russel,

Harbor Freight has a three-panel solar array that initially puts out 21vdc at 3 amps. It comes with a voltage converter to run USB 5v outlets and 12 and 9v taps. With a charger controller (also at HF) you can charge and maintain almost anything. Its $139 on sale.

Automotive batteries only last 5-6 years. What then?

Cabu is correct. Initially, survival is more about defense and security. That is what short term provisions provide: The freedom to focus on keep your family safe. Then, after the Zombieland, you have other long term issues to contend with.

Let me dig up my Bosnian article. It explains the subject in very stark terms.

 

[CaveCreekRay]

A very interesting thread from a survivor of the Bosnian War. Note the importance of weapons, ammo, barter items, networking with neighbors and friends for mutual defense, and basic meds, like diarrhea control and antiseptics. And, the critically essential need to lay low, blend into the background, and not let folks know what you have. It must have been a truly horrible time. By the way, in my recent remodel, the two guys who tiled my house were Bosnian and they escaped shortly after this stuff started. They are two happy Americans I can tell you. One has a bass boat and spends off time on the lakes. He lost his brother in the war. Their life now is a far cry from what this poor guy experienced. -Ray




Several readers alerted us to a forum thread at Survivalist Boards that centered around an individual named Selco who spent several years in a city setting during the complete collapse of Bosnia circa 1992. Selco describes the experiences and the survival strategies that he, his family and his community used to stay alive. Many forum members chimed in on the conversation and asked questions of Selco, who took the time to provide vivid details to an interested survival community.

The following compendium of the most popular questions and answers from the forum thread has been provided by Chris Kitze of well known alternative media web site Before It’s News. It’s a long read, but well worth your time.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SHTFplan editor’s note: When it hit the fan in Bosnia in the 1990***8242;s the electrical grid and water utilities went down, thus there was no heat in the winter and no potable water available for drinking. The currency and banking system were non-existent and commerce in its traditional form came to a standstill – leaving only barter as a way to acquire goods. The food supply and transportation systems fell apart. Police, fire, and medical services disappeared. Violence, disease and death spread throughout the region. Few were prepared for what would follow. This is Selco’s story. Pay attention, it may save your life one day.

“Nobody wins, we just survived, with a lot of bad dreams.”

– Selco

From Selco:

OK, i wanna share with you my own experience. (be patient with my English, i am from far away )

I am from Bosnia, and as some of you may know it was hell here from 92-95, anyway, for 1 whole year i lived and survived in a city of 50 000- 60 000 residents WITHOUT: electricity, fuel,running water,real food distribution, or distribution of any goods, or any kind of organized law or government.The city was surrounded for 1 year and in that city actually it was SHTF situation.

We did not have organized army or police force, there was groups of defenders, actually anybody who had a gun, fight for his own house and his own family.

Some of us was better prepared, but most of families had food for couple of days, some of us had pistol, few owned AK-47 when all started.

Anyway, after one month or two, gangs started with their nasty job,hospital looked like butchery, police force vanished, 80 percent of hospital staff gone home.
I was lucky, my family was big in that time (15 members in one big house, 5-6 pistols, 3 Kalashnikov s) so we lived and survived, most of us.

I remember US Air force dropped MRE every 10 days (god bless USA for that) as help for surrounded city, it just was not enough.Some of houses had little gardens with some vegetables, most did not.
After three months rumors started abouth first deaths from starvation,deaths from low temperatures, we stripped every door , window frame from abandoned houses for heating, i burned all my own furniture for heating, lot of people died from diseases, mostly from bad water (two of my family members), we used rain water for drink, several times i ate pigeons, once i ate rat.

Money did not worth sh..

we traded things, black market worked, few examples: for 1 corned beef can you could have woman for couple of hours(sounds bad, but it was reality) i remember, most of that womans were just desperate mothers, candles, lighters,antibiotics,fuel,batteries, rifle ammo and of course food, we fight like animals for that.
In situation like that lot of things change, most of people turned to monsters, it was ugly.
Strength was in the numbers, if you were alone in the house, you ve been probably robbed and killed, no matter how well armed.

Anyway, war ended, again thanks to America (and again god bless USA for that)
It is not important witch side had right in that war.

It was almost 20 years ago, but believe me, for me it was just like yesterday, i remember everything, and i think i learned a lot.

Me and my family are prepared now,i am well armed, stocked and educated.
It is not important what going to happen, earthquake,war, tsunami,aliens terrorists, important thing is that something gonna be.

And from my expirience, you can not survive alone, strength is in the numbers, be close with your family, prepare with them, choose your friends wisely and prepare with them too.

And at the end, this is my first post, and my English is not so good, so don t judge me too hard. ”

Q: How did you get around safely?

Actually city was broken in something like lot of street communities, in my street (15 or 20 houses) we organized patrols (5 armed man every night) to watch on gangs or enemies.

We traded things between people in that street, 5 miles from my street there was one street with something like organized traders, but it was to dangerous to go there, it worked only during the nighttime (during the day it was sniper alley) and you had more chance to be robed there than to trade, i used that street only 2 times, and belive me, only when i am really need something bad.

Q: What about wood? It looked like there are many forests around your city, why did you have to burn doors and furniture?

First, thank you for your questions, i did not expect this amount of interest for my post.

I ll be glad to share lot of things with you guys beecause i want to learn lot of things from you.

Anyway:

Bosnia have lot of woods and forests when you check map, but i lived in city closer to the croatian border, more to the south, i don t want to mention name of the city, but if you check map, south part of my country closer to croatia is all in rock.

Yes we had some trees in my city, parks, fruit trees, but most of the city is building and houses” but belive me all trees in the city is going to be burned very fast when you dont have eletricity for cooking and heating. After that all what you have is furniture, doors, wooden floors… (and belive me that stuff is burning too fast)

There was almost no car use in town because: most of the roads jammed with ruins, abandoned cars, destroyed houses stuff like that, and petrol was like gold.

If i needed to go somewhere i almost always used night time, never go alone but also never go in big group (2-3 man maybe), always armed, very fast, always in shadows, trough ruins, rarely openly on the street, actually always hiding.

We did not have suburbs and farmers, in suburbs were enemy army, we were surrounded with enemy army, and inside town you did not know who is your enemy.

And yes, there were organized groops of gangs, 10-15 people, sometimes even 50, but also there were normal people like you and me, fathers, granddads, decent folks, who robed and killed, there was not too much good and bad guys, most of us was gray, ready for everything.

Q: Did you prep and what kind of skills did you need?

Of course you can ask.

We use what we had, we was not prepared for that situation,we did not know for prepping.

So you can imagine in some aspects we go back in stone age, actually in most of.

We just used everything what we had, one example, i had in my propan(or butan i am not sure) stowe big bottle, cylinder (i am not sure is that right word), and i did not use it for cooking or heating, it was to valuable, i manage to built (fix) that bottle with my friend so i can attach a hose on some kind of ventil (sorry my english is going down here) so i can fill those disposable lighters,(they are not disposable if you knowhow to) those lighter worth a small fortune.

To make story short, somebody bring me empty lighter to me and i fill that lighter with gas, usually i took one can for that or one candle or whatewer he can offer me.

I hope you understand my example, my english is poor on some things.

one more example, i am a registered nurse, in time like that, my knowledge was my thing for trade.

And yes, be trained and educated, in times like that it worth a fortune if you know how to fix things, all your goods is going to be exhausted one day, but your specific knowledge can be your food.

I mean learn to fix things (shoes or people, whatewer you can)

My neighbor use to know how to make some kind of oil for oil lamps( oil in glass, peace of rope) and he was not hungry, he never show me how he made that oil ”

i belive he use some tree behind his house and small amount of disel, i don t know.

My point is learn things, people always need somebody who know to fix things.

It was not survival movie, it was ugly, we did what we have to do to survive.

Nobody wins, we just survived, with a lot of bad dreams.

Q: Wasn’t it religious, the war?

Sorry man wrong info, that was not Cristian vs Muslim war, it was civil war, with lot of switching between sides.

And sorry i am not to go in to the politics, i dont care to much for that, i am not going into religious stories, i mean i believe in God as higher power, and I am trying to live by his laws, i am not belong to any dogma, Muslim or Christian.

Q: Who was your support group?

My group was only my family, my blood (relatives like uncles, grandmother…), in my street and in my town trips i had some close friends, but my best friends was my family. I never take stranger in my close group.

Q: If you had three months to prepare today, what would you do?

If i have extra three months to prepare?

Hmmm, probably run overseas

Joke

OK, Now i am very well aware how things can go very bad in very short time so i have food, hygiene, energy etc. supply for 6 months, i live in apartment with some improved security, i have house with shelter in a village some 5 miles from my apartment, in that house also supply for 6 months, that village small community, most of them are my relatives,most of them are prepared (they learned that from war), i have four kind of fire weapons with 2000 bullets for each (sorry, can not go in details, laws are different here for rifles).

I have big garden with that house and some good knowledge about gardening and farming.

I think i have knowledge now to smell trouble, you know when everybody is saying that everything is going to be fine you somehow know that is everything going to fall apart.

I think i have strength to do everything what it takes to keep me and my family alive, because when everything is going to sh.., be sure, you are going to do some bad things to save your kid. You don t want to be hero, you want to survive with your family.

I am nurse, also i am paramedic (US standards)

And i am willing to learn from all of you.

One man survivor, no chance ( OK it is my opinion) no matter how well armed and prepared, at the end you gonna die, i ve seen that, many times. Family groups or closest friend with lot of preparing and lots of different knowledge, i believe that is best.

Q: What items should we stockpile?

Thank you

Well depends, i quess if you stock only one thing you are not going to survive, unless you want to survive like robber, then you need only gun and lot od ammo.

I believe besides ammo food hygiene and energy things (batteries etc.) you need to focus on small things for trade, pocket knives, lighters, flints.

Also LOT of alcohol, kind that can stay long, i mean stuff like whiskey and that, does not important what kind, you can have cheapest kind, it is very good thing for trade in desperate time.

Also lack of hygiene things killed a lot of people, i ve seen that.

You gonna need to have some simple things, like for example lot of garbage bags, i mean a lot, many uses for that, and a LOT of duct tape, many many uses for that.

In case of weapon keep it simple, i mean now i always carry Glock 45 with me, because i like that gun, but it is not usual gun and usual caliber here, so i also have two 7,62 mm TT russian pistols hidden, because almost everybody have that gun here and a lot ammunition.

I don t like Kalashnikov, but here there is that rifle on almost every 3rd house so…

Most of the time i collect my water from roof in 4 big barrels during the war, then cooked to desinfect, we also had river in that town , too poluted but if you can t choose…

I don t think i am expert, i am here to learn.

I quess it depends how far you going to go to survive with your actions, you need to be prepared to do some ugly things.

Oh yes it changed my perspective on life, i know now that bad things can happens, and on more important thing, actually i believe it is most important: I don’t anymore believe government and authority, not at all. When they really doing their best to assure you that everything going to be fine, you can be sure that something bad is happening.

Do not just believe, research.

Q: What about the civil war…and the religious fighting? Did gold and silver help much and how did you get the alcohol and other supplies?

Hello to all

It is me again

I believe in some point this discussion gone wrong way, and no i am not offended, everybody have right for opinion, so here is few of my opinions:

It was a civil war, yes there was a great influence of religion, but somebody mention “what did you do with people of other religion?”

Well in my family there are people with different religious beliefs so what do you mean with that?

I ll try to explain you simple; it was an attackers and defenders, lot of switching sides, civil war. War ended without winners, it ended with truce, thanks mostly to USA.It was the wrong war, wrong reasons. I did not fight for religion or ethnicity, i fought to keep my family and myself alive.

For last 15 years we have peace, we live with people who use to be our enemies, i do not to want to have war and enemy again because ethnicity or religion or any other reason.

Please do not try to generalize anything about that war, there was not good and bad side, we all suffered and we all try to live together again.

And yes every side did bad things, and every side had booth good and bad guys.

I am here for one and only reason- survival, i want to learn, and i can share some useful stuff with you.
I don t think about your religious beliefs, your ethnicity or your politic opinion.

Few words about my city before war, it was a usual Bosnian town, normal life, decent people, schools, theaters, parks, college, airport, crime rate very low, town like most of the smaller towns in USA (i think). I was a young man, just like any of you maybe.

Now very important think: i am not here to discuss about war reasons, or sides, religion or anything similar.

Thanks to the war, in my town was REAL SHTF situation, and we can discuss only about that, only that is important.

You have a lot internet pages, you can learn everything about that war, and you can choose side if you want.
OK that s it.

About survival.

I don t know about other people on this forum, but i have lot of alcohol stacked now.

At the beginning of war tank grenade smashed front wall of small distillery (alcohol factory) close to my house, so we took something around 500 liters of rakia (it is something like bosnian whiskey, i guess, it made from grape, very strong)

It was great stuff for trading, people used alcohol a lot, desperate times i think, we also use it for disinfection.

About hygiene, cups and plates, paper or plastic, you gonna need a LOT, i know, we did not have it at all.

My opinion that hygiene things is more important maybe than food, you can easily shoot pigeon, if you have grandmother she may know some eatable plants on nearest small hill (my experience) but you can not shoot hand sanitizer

Water purifying pills, all kind of cleaning stuff, sanitizers, lot of soap, bleach, gloves, masks, all disposable, take very good care about first aid training, learn how to treat smaller cuts, burns or even gunshot wound, there is not hospital, even if you found doctor somewhere he probably do not have any meds, or you do not have stuff to pay him.

Learn how and when to use antibiotics and have it a lot.

Belive me with good knowledge and good amount of meds you are gonna be rich.

(See Part 2 Next)

 

[CaveCreekRay]

About gold and silver, yes, me personally gave all my gold for ammunition in that time, but it did not worth too much.

About pets, i did not have it, i did not notice a lot pets in that time, did somebody ate it? I don t know, probably.

About small family, hmm, not good, usualy few smaller families get together in biggest house and stay together, all relatives (my case)

Small family or single man, not good for survive in town SHTF, maybe in wilderness (i don t have expirience in that) Even if you stay low profile, hidden in your house with lot of food etc, sooner or later mob will come, and you have maybe have one or two guns, very hard. I agree with low profile policy, it is very important not to attract people with anything, but when they come, you need to have numbers, people and guns, best people is your family.

About moving trough the city: always night time as i mentioned, never alone, 2-3 man, very fast, never attract with anything, look like everybody else, if most folks look desperate, poor, dirty you need to look same, there is no need that everybody know you have good amount of food, ammo , clean cloths and everything else back at home. Look and act like everybody else.

When somebody attack you or your family then you need to show that you are very ready.

I never walked in big groups,in that time and that situation big group is gang.

Now, this is all my experience, it was then, i did a lot of mistakes, i am not expert, i am here just like any of you, to learn and share.

For example i don t know too much about wilderness survival, i am here to check it.

Oh yes, few things to the Sedoy: my wife is different ethnicity, and she is also a Catholic, i am not, and to answer you : no i am not going to shoot her.

Q: What happened to those who died? Where did people get firewood?

Well, who ever died or get killed in that period, did not get proper funeral.

Folks used used every peace of free land, close to house for burial, sometimes even in the garden, 2-3 city parks turned to graveyards,after war most of them are exhumed and properly buried.

There was not noting like burning bodies or anything similar, as far as i know.

Oh one more interesting thing about fire, some people use to go few miles during the night only to find fire somewhere so they can fire peace of wood and bring it home, and start fire for cooking or heating, lighters and matches was really precious, and most of the folks did not have enough firewood do keep always fire. For most of the people it was constant search for something, fire,wood,food,ammo…

Q: Was salt valuable?

It was valuable yes, but not too much, for example coffee or cigarettes worth-ed much more.

Q What about cigarettes?

Hm, i had a lot of alcohol as i mentioned before, i traded almost everything without any problem, let me say it like this: consumption of alcohol was probably 10 times more than in normal time.Not to mention cleaning and disinfection.

On the other side you made a very good point, if you have money and time and you have a storage it is probably better to store cigarettes or candles and batteries for trade, or food.

I was not prepper at that time, we did not have time to prepare, few days before SHTF politicians on TV stated that everything is fine, when sky fell down we just take what you can.

Q: Tell us more about cooking and the foods you were able to prepare. Were you concerned about the smell getting around and alerting people that there was food over there?

About cooking, before the SHTF i used in my house electricity for booth, cooking and heating, so when everything started i traded some stuff for some kind of old wood stove, i put it in kitchen ad fix exhaust pipe (right word?) trough hole in wall, i use that for cooking and heating.

During the summer i cooked in my backyard (walled fence, brick, luckily)

Concerning the smell of the food, hm, i ll try to picture situation: no electricity, no running water, sewage off for months, dead bodies in ruined houses, grime and mess, believe me it was very hard to smell something nice.

It was not like in movies, it was ugly,dirty, and smelly.

Yes i had few problems because of cooking, only few, but as i sad before, enough people, properly armed and with will to defend and you can manage most of the problems with that.

Probably situation would be different in wilderness.

I ate mostly some kind of pancakes with local herbs (does not require cooking oil and too much firewood), and of course everything what i could get and trade, rice was good to eat, not too much firewood for that.

I think i had luck, only few times i ate funny things like pigeons.

I always had something to trade, i guess that saved me, and guns of course.

Q: 1. Why would the night be safer than daytime? Outside of the obvious of being easier to hide at night, but were the gangs more out during the days? Also, why only small groups of 2-3? What happened to larger groups?

2. Why would you have to go out at night? For instance, where were you going and why?

3. How did you handle the mob situation when they came for you, or your family?

4. You mentioned trading for bullets, etc. How much shooting were you doing during that time and how much ammo did you have, or would like to have had?

5. How were you able to determine who was an enemy and who wasn’t? How did you manage to get out there trade with people and when/where?

6. What fortifications did you do to your home and what kind of guard, or protections did you have in place?

7. Finally, how did you avoid snipers? What precautions did people take against them?

First almost nobody were out during the day because of snipers, line of defence was very close, so whatever you have to do, you do it during the night, trade something, look for firewood (i can express how much this was important in town, and hard), looking for anything, check somebody, go to hear news (very very important, lot of people get killed because they go somewhere just to see what happening, or what s new) remember, no news, no radio ,no tv, nothing, rumors fed lot of people.

Already explained, you can stay home and die of hunger and cold, or even infection of some small wound or go out and risk your life, try to find – trade anything useful

I did have situations concerning my house only, it is no need for too much details, we had more fire power, and brick wall.

Also we had something like street watch, people from my street were good organized, in case of gangs, now there were a lot shootings.

There was pretty much shooting in town, i did not have enough weapon at the beginning, one rifle and one pistol (ww2), maybe 100 bullets, later i trade some things for more rifles and ammo, remember i gave car battery for 2 rifles.

How much ammo ?

A LOT, as more as you can.

Most of the time you are not able to determine who is enemy or friend, expect my family and few real friend, everybody else is potential enemy. When your friend must choose between his child s death and your death quess who is going to choose.

Rumors, somebody tells you that some old guy few block away have some cans and he is looking for ammo or whatever, you go there, as i say you are always looking for something. Same some people would came in my street as traders, witha some goods.

There was something like trade street during the night, actualy it was a big ruins of sport center, you can go overthere and look for something or offer something, but it was not controlled by anyone so it was too dangerous.

It was primitive pretty much, brick wall around house,bags of sand on windows and doors, over that bags we used whatever you can, big pieces of metal, stones, inside house we put all kind of stuff on windows, only small openning left for rifle, always 5 members of family ready for fight, one always outside on street hidden.

Stone age situation

To avoid snipers, we stay home at day, it was not so much night snipers, even during the night we never walked openly on the streets if we can avoid that, always shortcuts, trough ruins, fast and quiet.

Q: What was your bathroom situation? Where did you go? Did you have anything to wipe with? Sorry ask such personal questions, but this is something that I’ve wondered about in this type of situation.

we used shovel and any piece of land close to house, sounds dirty, and it is dirty, washing with collected rainwater, sometimes go to river (most of the time that was too dangerous) Most of the time we did not have toilet paper, even if i had it, i trade it.

It was a bad situation all the time.

If i can give some advice: first to prep is a weapon and ammo, then everything else, i mean everything, depends how much money and space you have, if you forget something no problem there is always somebody ready for trade, but if you forget guns and ammo then you may not be able to get to trading places.

I do not see big family or group of really( i mean really) good friends as more mouth to feed, i see them as more guns and strength, it is in people nature to adapt.

And keep it simple and use common sense, in the first period weak people vanished, other fight.

Go with small thing, lighters, candles, flints. It is great idea to have fuel generator( electrical generating unit?) but i think is better idea to have 1000 bic lighters. Fuel generator is great, but in shtf scenario in town it is going to attract whole army,1000 bic lighters don t take too much space, cheap, you can always trade it for something.

Real SHTF scenario demands completely change of normal mindset, hard to explain, i ll try through examples.

Q: How easy/hard was it to get weapons AFTER the SHTF and what could you trade for weapon and ammunition

(I remember you saying a car battery for a rifle) and where would I go to find the people who trade in weapons?

Hm, you re right, after the war every house here had a weapon from war, and yes police did some actions to take illegal weapon from population, depends from man to man i quess, lot of people find ways to hide their weapon somewhere, just in case.

I also have legal weapon (license), and authority here have some thing they call it “temporary collecting”, it is says something like : in a case of unusual event (riots, unrest, etc) government have right to temporary collect all legal weapon, so i keep always in mind that, and i acted like some people.

You know some people have legal weapon for everyday carry( i have glock 45 and taurus 38) but some people with legal weapon also have illegal weapon hidden somewhere just in case SHTF and “temporary collecting”

It is not hard to get weapon in SHTF if you have good stuff for trade, but other thing is important, first days of SHTF is worst in terms of chaos and panic, maybe you not gonna have time to get gun. And to be unarmed in chaos panic and riots is bad.

In my case man needed car battery for radio i think, and he had some extra rifles, so we trade.

Q: What about medical care for people who were shot or became injured?

Wounds was mostly gunshot wounds of course, without specialists and everything else, if wounded manage to find doctor somewhere he had like 30% chances to live, again it is not movie, mostly they died, lot of died even from minor cuts infections, i had antibiotics maybe for 3-4 treatment. Of course for my family only.

Simple things killed people, diarrhea can kill you in a few days without meds and rehidratation, (fluid therapy, IV) especially small kids. Lot of fungal skin deseases,and food poisoning, we could not do too much. Basically we treated diseases mostly with local herbs, and if you had wound, put rakia on it and try to find antibiotics somewhere.

So i was good at fixing wounds in term of emergency help, but longer procedure-bad prognosis.

What i learned? Hygiene again, and a lot of meds, especially antibiotics. You need to learn to treat lot of stuff, go online, finish some training, EMT maybe, first aid etc.

In SHTF things are different, learn how to open IV, when to use certain drug, or antibiotics.

Get your self ANA TE (anti tetanus ) shot injections , snake poison kit, adrenaline kit (allergic reactions, different kinds) thick removal kit, (thick related illness can kill you, learn how to remove thick)…

Get in your prepper storage some reanimation kit (simple one) like small oxygen cylinder, BVM mask etc. It is not really hard to learn to use all of these.

OK let s clear something, of course you can not use anything of this in real world unless you are certified and trained for that ( EMT, nurse, physician ).

But in SHTF nobody ask you for license, just learn and have in your storage big part for medical things.

So to answer question how did i help and treat, most of the time very poor,i help some with resources that i have, i took food or something else for exchange, i was badly prepared for that, now i am what do i need to have.

Q: Did your local currency/money still hold value? Were you still able to use money to purchase items from other people?

No, not really, i mean sometimes you can use foreign money if you had it to buy something, (dollars or German marks) but even in that rare occasion rate was unbelievable for examples 1 can of beans for 30-40 dollars (normal value was maybe 0,50) i quess somebody had connections with outside world, black market you know, so he can earn lot of money.But it was very rare. Trade was main thing to get something.

Local currency crashed very fast, in few weeks or month maybe.

Q: How much space should I keep for alcohol storage? What was security like?

About alcohol first, you right but you are right in booth ways, people need alcohohol more in desperte times then usual, so it is kind of gambling i guess , it is very good item for trading, i never had problems with alcohol trading and having than problems with trading other things.

Also i am thinking about something else, maybe it is better to fill my storage with something less space consuming but still interesting for trade, like batteries, antibiotics etc.

Thing is i had all that alcohol for free, i did not buy it.I don t know about this.

In most of the situations people attack me because they think they are stronger, they did not know for sure what i really had.

About ammunition trade, it depends how much ammo you are going to have, sometimes i trade ammo for food, and in few weeks again food for ammo, but i never never do trade at my home, and never bigger amounts, very few people knowed how much of anything i had in my house.

The point is store as much of anything as you can store (space , money) later during the situation you ll see what is most popular, correction ammo and guns always gonna had 1 place for me, but who knows maybe number 2 for trading gonna be for example masks with filters.

About medical issue , i ll write in my next post what do i have now in my medical part of storage

Defence were very primitive, again we were not prepared, we use what ever we could, windows were broken, roofs mostly damaged from shelling, all windows were blocked with something, sand bags and rocks,every night i blocked my yard gate with junk- rubble from the street and i use old alluminium ladder to get over the wall, when i come back i called somebody from house to get me that ladders so i can move in.

Guy from my street barricaded his house completely, if he go out at night he use a hole that he maded in one room that is connected with neighbor s house, and go trough his (ruined and destroyed) house out, actually he had secret entrance.

It may look weird to say but most secured houses are gone first, of course we had some very nice houses in neighborhood, with walls, dogs, alarms, steel bars on windows, alarms. And you can quess what happened, mob attacked those houses first, some were defended other not, depend how many guns and hands thea have inside.

So i think security is great, but be sure that you keep it low profile, forget about alarm, if you live in town and SHTF you gonna need simple looking non interesting secured house, with lot of guns and ammunitions.

Just keep it low profile and not interesting.

On my apartment door now i have steel door for security reason, but only to keep me trough first short period of chaos, then i am moving out to connect with bigger group of armed people (family and friends) in the country (i hope)

Well in my case migration did not happen because it happen very fast, other army just closed city in ring and that s it, if you ask me where was that army and how we did not seen them coming, the answer is simple, that army was an ally of army of my side and people, and one day we woke up and figured they are enemy now and they are closing all ways out. Politics . It is true, one more side of civil war.

But i heard from others parts of country, and my frends who stayed in villages in the other parts in state, that they have much better situations,countryside had land,corn,wheat, fruit trees, farms etc they had enough food, it was bad, but much better than in city.

I know one thing if we had some way out from the town, we would use it, we did not have it.

(Part 3 Next)

 

[CaveCreekRay]

Q: What was the situation with banks and stores?

About banks, loans, credit cards. Complete monetary system died for about one year, so nothing works.
It is complex question in many ways, i ll try it to answer it in some future posts, need much more time and much much more space to describe it. Even now almost 20 years later folks are at European court suing banks, because they dont want to admit their savings in banks, lot of different things happened in that period , they changed money, i mean monetary name, they changed it 2-3 times , hyperinflation occurs, lost of paper trails about savings, loans … i remember some people use that situation to get rich, they still rich ”

So i ll try to describe that in separate post.

There was a lot problems with proving people s property after everything, for example: my father had nice apartment and because war he must leave it, after war ended he was at court for about 4 years proving that apartment was his, reasons for that were different, because politics in that time, but also he did not have enough paper work to prove that apartment was his (he did not took papers from apartment when he fled, he had more important things to care)

On the other side during the worst period, people just moved in empty house, and that s it.

I mention rural areas in other post. As far as i remember it was better there.

In that period there is not running vehicle, actually i remember tank at the front line, and Lada Niva ( check it on web) with cut of doors and roof and installed machine gun ( i think it was an old m53) and those two only moved when they fired( they keep it hidden behind ruined houses)

For let me call it “civilian population” there was no moving with vehicles, streets were mostly under rubble and unusable and fuel was too expensive.

Not to draw attention was a big thing, about clothing, there use to be some sort of town defense, it was not like real military,mostly mixed civilian clothes with part of uniforms, different weapon, so no rules.

But as soon as go in to that things and try to talk about two armies, their strength, war crimes, politics i am not gonna like it any more, because people gonna start to choose sides, and i think it is not important for us here.

As i said before there was not organized army, but we all been like soldiers, we had to, most of us carry weapon and try to protect from enemy army and robbers.

Inside the town you did not want to look fancy because somebody shoot you and took your good stuff, you did not want to have fancy rifle, because probably you not gonna find ammo in that caliber and also you are drawing attention.

So let s me try to put it this way: if SHTF tomorrow, i will try to look like most of the people outside, scared, desperate, confused and i ll scream maybe, no fancy looking stuff, i ll not go out in fancy new uniform and yell “I am here, you are finished now looters and robbers” I ll stay low profile, heavily armed and well prepared waiting to see my options, even if i have to go out with all my gear to do things i ll go in night, with best friend or brother. Maybe sounds ridiculous, but from my expirience it works, be wery well prepared, but let nobody outside your house know or see that.

No matter how good is your house security, how good is your weapon, if people see that they have good reason to rob you they probably rob you in town SHTF, it is only matter of time and number of guns.Don t ever give them reason to be interesting for robbing. Stay uninteresting. Now this is my opinion, maybe is not working in different situation.

About robbing grocery store and gas stations, it happened very very fast, as soon as shooting started all valuable things was emptied, there vas some effort of authority to keep it together but everything fall apart in first weeks.