I bought a 10000kw generator head and am trying to decide on powering it with a small 4cyl motor or my Kubota B1750. Have any of you had experences with PTO driven generators? Would like to hear your input.
PTO Generator
- Thread starter likearock
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I too had considered a PTO driven generator in the past but decided to go standalone because I didn't want to rack up the hours on my tractor's engine.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
A PTO generator requires 2 hp (pto) for every 1000kw of generating capacity. Although with not enough hp you will just lose capacity and can still be used.
If I could find a splined pulley this is what I will do......hang it like weights, easy on, easy off.
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gpreuss
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There is a strong tendency to want to hook things to your shiny tractor. The problem is the tractor is then tied up to that task. Better to have a stand-alone generator, and still have the tractor for snow removal, or to attend to whatever reason you are lacking power.
Another consideration is speed. Most inexpensive generators are 3600 RPM. You'll need a hefty gear drive for the PTO, or some pulleys, etc for the front shaft.
As was already mentioned, the small 4cycle engine will be 20+ horses.
Just by the way, however you do this, use a transfer switch panel to hook to your house/barn. You do not want to backfeed the grid, and kill a lineman. You also don't want to have power come back on out of phase, and blow up your generator.
Another consideration is speed. Most inexpensive generators are 3600 RPM. You'll need a hefty gear drive for the PTO, or some pulleys, etc for the front shaft.
As was already mentioned, the small 4cycle engine will be 20+ horses.
Just by the way, however you do this, use a transfer switch panel to hook to your house/barn. You do not want to backfeed the grid, and kill a lineman. You also don't want to have power come back on out of phase, and blow up your generator.
I bought the 12k PTO driven generator and just finished making my own 3 point mount with wheels under it for moving it out of the way easily when not in use.
Sounds to me like you bought the generator head only and if so you're in for some serious work figuring out how to make the connection to your tractor.
I'm fairly, no I AM CERTAIN that you won't be able to turn a 10k head with some light duty pully setup like what's pictured on the posts here on the smaller lawn tractors. Think lots of torque to turn it just like you need for a brush hog or rototiller to start then more like a standard mower once everything is running smoothly. The most critical thing is maintaining a steady RPM range that produces the correct power and be stable at that speed.
Lots of posts if you look around as plenty of people have PTO generators and have posted very good information about them.
Al
Sounds to me like you bought the generator head only and if so you're in for some serious work figuring out how to make the connection to your tractor.
I'm fairly, no I AM CERTAIN that you won't be able to turn a 10k head with some light duty pully setup like what's pictured on the posts here on the smaller lawn tractors. Think lots of torque to turn it just like you need for a brush hog or rototiller to start then more like a standard mower once everything is running smoothly. The most critical thing is maintaining a steady RPM range that produces the correct power and be stable at that speed.
Lots of posts if you look around as plenty of people have PTO generators and have posted very good information about them.
Al
Couple of points here-
The Cub rear pto is shaft driven to a pulley, then pulley driven to an electric clutch, then shaft driven to the tiller (or other). This tiller never skipped a beat in hard TN clay, I have to believe that the tiller would cause a greater strain (at the belt) than even a 10K gen. For that matter there are cogged pulleys and belts available. As for rpm.......4" at the crank and 3" at the gen should take you up near the 3600rpm range.
There is also the possibility of shaft-drive off the front.
Why did I post what I posted?
Just ideas.
Front drives leaves the 3pt available for other work.
There are two reasons that I would have a gen on the tractor. Work in the field that requires electricity.
And for temp power at home. I could see this coming in handy for powering my well pump or other appliances for just moments at a time or at a half hour at a time to keep freezers up and soforth.
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What speed does your gen head require for 60hz?
The problem is if you turn a standard (non inverter) gen head at the wrong speed you get the wrong frequency. Too low a freq and any motor you're driving spins too slow and draws a lot more current and will probably burn up. Too high and your motor is spinning too fast, in something like a fridge this could cause the system to over pressurize and blow a seal. Then you get into the issue of power transmission. A 10kW output head will be drawing 13.4hp times the generator's efficiency + 1 + safety factor (call it 20hp total) and your power transmission system needs to be able to handle that. A PTO is turning 540RPM at rated power and any commercial PTO generator will be designed for that or will have a gear drive that brings it back up to 3600RPM. Any sort of belt or chain system (off the PTO or the crank) requires some engineering to ensure you don't end up with a squealing belt or a chain and sprockets with a lifespan of hours. Google chain selector or vbelt selection if you want to see what I mean.
It's not rocket science but requires some thought and a little engineering to pull off.
The problem is if you turn a standard (non inverter) gen head at the wrong speed you get the wrong frequency. Too low a freq and any motor you're driving spins too slow and draws a lot more current and will probably burn up. Too high and your motor is spinning too fast, in something like a fridge this could cause the system to over pressurize and blow a seal. Then you get into the issue of power transmission. A 10kW output head will be drawing 13.4hp times the generator's efficiency + 1 + safety factor (call it 20hp total) and your power transmission system needs to be able to handle that. A PTO is turning 540RPM at rated power and any commercial PTO generator will be designed for that or will have a gear drive that brings it back up to 3600RPM. Any sort of belt or chain system (off the PTO or the crank) requires some engineering to ensure you don't end up with a squealing belt or a chain and sprockets with a lifespan of hours. Google chain selector or vbelt selection if you want to see what I mean.
It's not rocket science but requires some thought and a little engineering to pull off.
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I have a 13000 surge 12000 continuous output. It calls for 24hp minimum. We have used it behind a 8n Ford when my dad originally bought it around 10yrs ago. We now have a L3700SU Kubota and it runs it great. We do not get the snow like some of you do which means the tractor can sit under the shelter and run the generator.
Ismurphy-sorry if you took offense and you certainly posted some awesome pics that were good for giving various ways to mount and drive a generator.
I meant no offense to you and understood why you posted the.
I'm thinking those on the garden tractors are not 10k which are fine for what they're intended where 10k will usually run a whole house. I referred to the torgue for a reason simply to get him thinking it has to be setup in a way that will take the serious power required to maintain perfect rpm range or it won't work and cause costly loss of those items not getting the correct power.
A PTO driven gear box is the serious setup and in my research nobody listed anything running off the mid/front PTO shaft due to the difference in speed that it turns. Nearly all tractors are at 540 rpm PTO speed and can maintain it by the engine governor quite well if matched to the 2HP per KW formula.
Al
I meant no offense to you and understood why you posted the.
I'm thinking those on the garden tractors are not 10k which are fine for what they're intended where 10k will usually run a whole house. I referred to the torgue for a reason simply to get him thinking it has to be setup in a way that will take the serious power required to maintain perfect rpm range or it won't work and cause costly loss of those items not getting the correct power.
A PTO driven gear box is the serious setup and in my research nobody listed anything running off the mid/front PTO shaft due to the difference in speed that it turns. Nearly all tractors are at 540 rpm PTO speed and can maintain it by the engine governor quite well if matched to the 2HP per KW formula.
Al
I have a PTO generator and had no problem running the hours up on my B7100 during an extended outage in CT. When I ran out of fuel it was siphoned out of the home heating oil tank. We ran through about 5 gallons a day for a week. My parents in New Jersey have a gasoline stand alone generator the only problem was after using their 30 gallons of gas it was almost impossible to get more. I brought them 40 gallons from CT to help keep them running. In my opinion the only stand alone generator worth having would be a diesel or natural gas.
Oh no, I've got thick skin.
I just wanted to point out to others here that I have thought about this and I have a desire for one myself. Seemingly, a lot of us here have compacts or sub-compacts and most of us po-boys generally cobble up something ourselves. For the guys who can afford a $50-60K tractor.... I assume they can afford the $3,800 or so for a commercial 3pt unit.
I think that those of us in the 20hp range could find a 5K unit used from say a GenSet with a blown Onan for about $200 and make something work.
I bought a 15kw one from Rural King for $1100 that runs off the pto. Harbor Freight sells the same one for around $1500. Rural King stopped selling the 15kw I believe but do have larger pto powered units. Seems to work real well and has excellent ratings on HF.
Check out Utterpower.com for details on ST gen heads.
you can usually get them on EBAY for 3-400 and most run at 1800 as opposed to 3600rpm.
you can usually get them on EBAY for 3-400 and most run at 1800 as opposed to 3600rpm.
I thought I was the only one that ever did that with a garden tractor,, many years ago I found a 7kw gen with a blown motor and got it for free and cobbled it up to the front of my Bolens G14 garden tractor,, I think the Ex still has it out in the shed
Opinions from others:
I believe the generator Boss Hogg mentioned is a Chicago Electric Generator from Harbor Freight. You may not be able to get parts for the Chicago set.
Can we call it China Electric, because I'm not even sure Chicago Electric even has a office in Chicago. As Chicago Electric states - We just sell them we don't repair them.
I suspect there is something very basic that I am missing, which explains why these Chicago generators are so much cheaper than the Onans...
If the onan is broken, MOST times there is no need to pull it out of the hole. 95% of the important parts are in front.
These Chicago electric generators are probably good enough for people that want a generator to put in the shed for those once per decade major power outages from ice storms, hurricanes, etc. and want to keep the beer cool, frozen food frozen, a couple of box fans, a few lights and a tv running until the power comes back on. Just remember they were built with the philosophy of don't use metal where plastic will do, and there is no such thing as too thin of safety margin, or too optimistic of performance rating.
AK
I believe the generator Boss Hogg mentioned is a Chicago Electric Generator from Harbor Freight. You may not be able to get parts for the Chicago set.
Can we call it China Electric, because I'm not even sure Chicago Electric even has a office in Chicago. As Chicago Electric states - We just sell them we don't repair them.
I suspect there is something very basic that I am missing, which explains why these Chicago generators are so much cheaper than the Onans...
If the onan is broken, MOST times there is no need to pull it out of the hole. 95% of the important parts are in front.
These Chicago electric generators are probably good enough for people that want a generator to put in the shed for those once per decade major power outages from ice storms, hurricanes, etc. and want to keep the beer cool, frozen food frozen, a couple of box fans, a few lights and a tv running until the power comes back on. Just remember they were built with the philosophy of don't use metal where plastic will do, and there is no such thing as too thin of safety margin, or too optimistic of performance rating.
AK
It is not Chicago electric but is made in China...along with almost every other generator and thing made. Putting an American label on it doesn't change that fact.
There have been some long threads on this forum (in different subsections by different authors at different times) to which I've contributed.
Search and you'll receive all kinds of information with a lot of different experiences and viewpoints.
Basically...
If you need a standby genset you don't need it hooked to the tractor.
Everybody has their own ideas and experiences. My observations are based on having tried every possible combination and now doing our designed installs for others that like our system. Ours is 45-kVA w/ 1,500-gals propane. Averages about 40-hours a year loaded, down from a peak of 17-day icestorm few years ago (we're literally at the end of the grid's lines).
Sidenote: I know this thing is oversized for the application as it could power a small hospital. But the price was right. And it's more than paid for itself. We even put in a couple pedestals so neighbors can pull their fifth wheels into our pasture and plug in when the grid fails. If you shop seriously you can find genset bargains regularly.
Tractor will be busy doing other things if you're without power for any usual natural calamity.
Get the biggest 'whole house' aux genset you can afford and install it using a 'whole house' 200-amp transfer switch or larger. That way you can upgrade the genset later.
Even with diesel you have fuel management problems unless stored in bulk with rapid turnover. Very few people can do.
NatGas is great until flood or fire or windstorm (trees uproot meters) creates a leak or floods the distribution system: then you too are out.
Propane is the way to go, with a dedicated 'whole house' correctly wired unit. Turn a valve, push a button, drink coffee.
Interesing alternative with dual use: cart mounted gas-engine drive arc welder, converted to propane. Get a minimum 250-gal propane tank near house with wiring preconnected to 200-amp transfer switch. Roll welder on cart from shop to pole, plug in cable, quick-connect propane, flip switches, drink coffee. In other times use welder to better use around the place with 5-gal bbq cylinders.
Search and you'll receive all kinds of information with a lot of different experiences and viewpoints.
Basically...
If you need a standby genset you don't need it hooked to the tractor.
Everybody has their own ideas and experiences. My observations are based on having tried every possible combination and now doing our designed installs for others that like our system. Ours is 45-kVA w/ 1,500-gals propane. Averages about 40-hours a year loaded, down from a peak of 17-day icestorm few years ago (we're literally at the end of the grid's lines).
Sidenote: I know this thing is oversized for the application as it could power a small hospital. But the price was right. And it's more than paid for itself. We even put in a couple pedestals so neighbors can pull their fifth wheels into our pasture and plug in when the grid fails. If you shop seriously you can find genset bargains regularly.
Tractor will be busy doing other things if you're without power for any usual natural calamity.
Get the biggest 'whole house' aux genset you can afford and install it using a 'whole house' 200-amp transfer switch or larger. That way you can upgrade the genset later.
Even with diesel you have fuel management problems unless stored in bulk with rapid turnover. Very few people can do.
NatGas is great until flood or fire or windstorm (trees uproot meters) creates a leak or floods the distribution system: then you too are out.
Propane is the way to go, with a dedicated 'whole house' correctly wired unit. Turn a valve, push a button, drink coffee.
Interesing alternative with dual use: cart mounted gas-engine drive arc welder, converted to propane. Get a minimum 250-gal propane tank near house with wiring preconnected to 200-amp transfer switch. Roll welder on cart from shop to pole, plug in cable, quick-connect propane, flip switches, drink coffee. In other times use welder to better use around the place with 5-gal bbq cylinders.
My apologies for the delay responding to your fuel use question. Been out doing other things in the interim.
To answer your question: The best I can tell this unit uses between 4- to 5-gals per hour whether fully loaded or idling. I've got this lash-up sized for about 10-days of continuous run-time. In practice when in actual use, we shut down at night and keep the house warm with propane direct-vent heaters (heaters added later during remodel and with their own fuel supply, another 500-gal tank).
Allow me to explain our system.
We've got a 45-kVA Onan prime-power rated skid mounted fully enclosed genset driven by a 300-cu in Ford 6-cyl truck engine running at 1,800-rpm.
This thing is so oversized that when absolutely every electricial device in the house (originally all electric, heat pump with 10-kW aux heat strips), main shop (machine tools, air compressor, grinders, welder), wife's shop (air compressor, heater, A/C), barn (corral lights, heaters, air compressor) is forced to start and run the ammeter shows about 125-150-amps with occasional peaks due to starts and the machine never bobbles or bogs down even a little.
We stumbled into this deal while searching for for a genset for a customer. We sucked this thing up fast and got the customer one more suited to his needs.
We converted the unit from natural gas (urban environment) to propane for our use. Pretty simple to do.
Fuel storage is approximately 1,350-gals liquid propane in two tanks with one 500-gal tank used for normal ops and one 1,000-tank used as backup and insurance.
Note approximate fuel volume at ~90% tank volume. Tank percentage gauges are iffy at best, being not much more than a gross indicator, not detailed (few people I know look at the gauge, just depending on route sales to come by every so often). And I've replaced both tanks gauges in an effort to get better information, to no avail.
Onan never produced a fuel consumption curve for this particular setup on propane. I've gone so far as to talk with the guy on the factory floor that actually assembled the unit and dug up retired Onan techs and engineers that kept old files that were otherwise trashed when computers came along. I like data, can't have too much. The 4-to-5-gph noted above is somewhat verified by comparing BTU of propane to natural gas (with some assumptions) and using Onan's nat gas fuel consumption curves.
All fuel supplies are interconnected and valved through a manifold for liquid and vapor.
Overkill? Perhaps. Three major ice storms in ten years. Longest we were down for 17-days. We are literally at the end of the grid on a rural co-op. If ANYTHING happens upstream, we lose power.
We've also got a 12-kVA Lincoln / Kohler welder dual-fuel (gasoline, propane) as a secondary standby. And we stock bulk gasoline and diesel year-round for our routine operations.
One other consideration: we install auto-start panels for most all the gensets we set up but I recommend against using them. We're active in VFD and have had housefires where structural damage resulted in fire when the power dropped, the genset kicked on, and breakers didn't trip. We keep our transfer switch turned to 'manual' all the time. Open a fuel valve, push the start button, flip a transfer switch, all there is to it.
Lastly, keep at least one full set of consumables on hand at all times for any genset: every filter, belt, plug...and become intimate with the machine itself. Otherwise in a blizzard at night with a flashlight life is going to get interesting fast.
To answer your question: The best I can tell this unit uses between 4- to 5-gals per hour whether fully loaded or idling. I've got this lash-up sized for about 10-days of continuous run-time. In practice when in actual use, we shut down at night and keep the house warm with propane direct-vent heaters (heaters added later during remodel and with their own fuel supply, another 500-gal tank).
Allow me to explain our system.
We've got a 45-kVA Onan prime-power rated skid mounted fully enclosed genset driven by a 300-cu in Ford 6-cyl truck engine running at 1,800-rpm.
This thing is so oversized that when absolutely every electricial device in the house (originally all electric, heat pump with 10-kW aux heat strips), main shop (machine tools, air compressor, grinders, welder), wife's shop (air compressor, heater, A/C), barn (corral lights, heaters, air compressor) is forced to start and run the ammeter shows about 125-150-amps with occasional peaks due to starts and the machine never bobbles or bogs down even a little.
We stumbled into this deal while searching for for a genset for a customer. We sucked this thing up fast and got the customer one more suited to his needs.
We converted the unit from natural gas (urban environment) to propane for our use. Pretty simple to do.
Fuel storage is approximately 1,350-gals liquid propane in two tanks with one 500-gal tank used for normal ops and one 1,000-tank used as backup and insurance.
Note approximate fuel volume at ~90% tank volume. Tank percentage gauges are iffy at best, being not much more than a gross indicator, not detailed (few people I know look at the gauge, just depending on route sales to come by every so often). And I've replaced both tanks gauges in an effort to get better information, to no avail.
Onan never produced a fuel consumption curve for this particular setup on propane. I've gone so far as to talk with the guy on the factory floor that actually assembled the unit and dug up retired Onan techs and engineers that kept old files that were otherwise trashed when computers came along. I like data, can't have too much. The 4-to-5-gph noted above is somewhat verified by comparing BTU of propane to natural gas (with some assumptions) and using Onan's nat gas fuel consumption curves.
All fuel supplies are interconnected and valved through a manifold for liquid and vapor.
Overkill? Perhaps. Three major ice storms in ten years. Longest we were down for 17-days. We are literally at the end of the grid on a rural co-op. If ANYTHING happens upstream, we lose power.
We've also got a 12-kVA Lincoln / Kohler welder dual-fuel (gasoline, propane) as a secondary standby. And we stock bulk gasoline and diesel year-round for our routine operations.
One other consideration: we install auto-start panels for most all the gensets we set up but I recommend against using them. We're active in VFD and have had housefires where structural damage resulted in fire when the power dropped, the genset kicked on, and breakers didn't trip. We keep our transfer switch turned to 'manual' all the time. Open a fuel valve, push the start button, flip a transfer switch, all there is to it.
Lastly, keep at least one full set of consumables on hand at all times for any genset: every filter, belt, plug...and become intimate with the machine itself. Otherwise in a blizzard at night with a flashlight life is going to get interesting fast.