PTO generator

Grouse Feathers

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BX2370, FEL, Snowblower-BX5455, Homebuilt Forks, LP RB1560, LP GS1548
Feb 16, 2015
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Lovells, Mi
Continuing the conversation.

Also for consideration is how your place is heated. Summer is hard but survivable. Winter can be tough. If you've got electric resistance heating or heat pump you need more power, lots more power. 'Emergency' heat on your heat pump supplemental strip heaters can easily use up 10-Kw. If you're on oil and you only need a pump and blower, different story.
Stubbyie
Great information, I agree with everything and only have a couple of questions. I have two heat pumps and electric resistance for when it gets cold. My heat pumps are inverter type with a lot of electronic pc board control. I have not powered the heat pumps from the generator as I am concerned about the electronics, do you have any experience? As for heat when the power is out I use my back up propane furnace as it supplies heat at about 80% efficiency versus the generator supplying electricity at 30% efficiency. The propane should last longer with the furnace and I don't have enough generator to pick up all the electric heat if its below zero. If I put in another switch to power the heat pumps they should beat the furnace at least for moderate temperatures.
 

Stubbyie

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Jul 1, 2010
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Dear GrouseFeathers:

I appreciate the kind words. I'll in return offer my experiences.

For years we had an air-to-air Trane heat pump of SEER~13. We successfully ran it on both a Lincoln 12-Kw welding genset and our prime power-rated (more in a moment) generator.

We upgraded to a geothermal Climate Master heat pump with indoor Trane air handler and a CM desuperheater to furnish domestic hot water. SEER ~30+. We have run this entire system off the same units noted above. All with no problems.

I checked and know for certain the power outputted by the Lincoln welder is stable and of good quality under load. The prime power unit is by definition although it gets checked occasionally too.

Without an oscilloscope the best I can offer is to check voltage output when the generator is under maximum load---everything 'on' and all your motors starting at once. Under the same conditions, use a moderately priced true RMS multimeter that will measure frequency. If your voltage and frequency are stable under maximum load, my GUESS is that your electronic heat pump(s) will work fine.

Start your generator, apply no loads, then bring one heat pump online and see what happens. Make it cycle repeatedly, run it for an hour, work it hard, and watch the voltage and frequency.

I realize a risk is involved, but I'd rather know now than later.

I would suggest calling the local TechRep at the distributor, not the local HVAC guy, but my results doing so have been odd. I've had two different TechReps from two different national companies tell me their particular HVAC systems (one heat pump, one conventional) simply would not work off a generator.

Phooey! Electricity is electricity, power is power, watts is watts. What's that, you say?

I finally figured out by looking over one guy's shoulder that the manufacturer has in its Tech Manual to always say 'no' to generators, primarily because somebody might try to miswire a $20,000 system to a Chinee piece of junk and then try to get warranty work.

We commonly advise our neighbors to run their systems on high-quality generators and have no known problems.

For those still tuned in, a plug here for direct-vent propane (or natgas) heaters as a backup. These totally enclosed heaters draw outside air in to combust and exhaust back outside through a pipe-within-a-pipe. No carbon monoxide inside.

Also mentioned is not having enough generator to pick up the electric heat. I assume we're talking here about supplemental strip resistance heaters built into the heat pump air handler.

If you have sufficient generator capacity to live like you wish and have a bit of spare, you can cripple a portion of the strip heaters and leave the others functional. If uncertain how to do this, track down your local HVAC guy and ask for help. My strip heaters on our first unit were installed in 5-Kw increments. I put supplemental switches on two of the relays and could select 20-, 15-, 10-Kw outputs.

Our primary prime power-rated genset is 45-Kw 4-pole 1,800-rpm driven by a 300-CI Ford 6-cyl stationary engine on propane that burns about 5-gallons per hour at full load. It's only been fully loaded on test when tied to a resistance loadbank. And an embarrassing amount of propane standing by, ready to go by unlocking a valve. Flip the transfer switch, push a button, and we're good to go.

I hope this helps further the conversation and look forward to continued interaction.

Please post back your continuing experiences so we may all learn.
 

olthumpa

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L275
May 25, 2011
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One thing I have not seen mentioned instead of a suicide cord or a whole house, automatic or manual, transfer switch in a Generator Breaker Interlock. I used a Homeline 100 Amp 24-Space 48-Circuit Indoor Main Plug-On Neutral Breaker Load Center with Cover - Value Pack wired as a sub panel off the main panel.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...th-Cover-Value-Pack-HOM2448M100PCVP/204836362
with a Lockout Kit, do not remember which one.
http://www.homedepot.com/s/Generator%20Breaker%20Interlock?NCNI-5

I wired all electric circuits that I wanted powered during an outage into the NEW Generator Panel. Ran a 10/3 wire to a power inlet box in an appropriate location out side.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-50-Amp-Power-Inlet-Box-PB50/202216493

In Maine this is a legal setup. Approved and inspected by code enforcement and recognized by the state fire martial.

As for fuel for the generators, I always have gas, diesel and propane on hand. If any kind of weather that might cause an outage is forcasted I will pick up an additional weeks supply for the generator. In the 28 years that I have lived here, the longest outage was under 3 days. 95% are under 2hrs. The rest have been under 6hrs.

 

SLIMSHADIE

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Kubota BX25D
Apr 10, 2013
445
1
16
Eureka,IL
Havent heard from the OP.
I think we changed the thread to "skip the PTO generator and get a stand alone unit"

All joking aside, as I get older, I'm not old by any means, I like to do things right the first time, usually saving time and money later. Maybe a little wisdom is setting in.
Generators have come a long way. I can hear my neighbors everytime 200' away and not mine sometimes 50' away. A whole house transfer switch and proper sized unit can pretty much run everything in your house. I like the fact that I can flip any light switch and it works. I can use any plug and it works. All major appliances works. Geo-Thermal works. I think install time was only about 4 hours, dealer installed. I know when to leave it to the professionals, most of the time. Hooked up to natural gas or propane, the fuel doesnt go bad. Its ready to run 24/7 365 days a year.
They are expensive and depends on your situation. When I lived in the city, I wouldnt buy 1, but know in the country, my retirement house in 20 years, I did. Will it pay for itself, prob not, hope not. But I have my daughters,wife and dogs that depend on me. Heat in the house, running water, food to eat and maybe a little tv. I look at it as insurance, peace of mind and it works :D
 

Grouse Feathers

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BX2370, FEL, Snowblower-BX5455, Homebuilt Forks, LP RB1560, LP GS1548
Feb 16, 2015
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Lovells, Mi
If you have sufficient generator capacity to live like you wish and have a bit of spare, you can cripple a portion of the strip heaters and leave the others functional. If uncertain how to do this, track down your local HVAC guy and ask for help. My strip heaters on our first unit were installed in 5-Kw increments. I put supplemental switches on two of the relays and could select 20-, 15-, 10-Kw outputs.

.
Stubbyie

Thanks for the advice.
If I had to deal with your 27 day outages I would want your system. We are pretty far out, but it would really be unusual for anyone in the lower peninsula of Michigan to go more than a week without power. My heating system is a little basic compared to yours to fit our house. Originally a three season fishing hunting cabin built in 1926 with no crawl space or attic for duct work. So I have baseboard, wall convection, and forced convection electric heaters plus two ductless heat pumps.
The Mitsubishi ductless heat pumps are great, except I installed my own and Mitsubishi tech support refuses to talk to anyone who is not a licensed AC installer.
I will look at putting the heat pumps on the generator, but it is slightly complicated by the 30% reduced rate for electric heat that requires a separate meter. My generator is a 12 kw unit so I will probably be limited to one heat pump to leave enough spare for the well pump to start. As far as the electric heaters I will stay with the propane wall furnace as more efficient than the generator.
 

Stubbyie

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Jul 1, 2010
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Midcontinent
A prior poster offers links to Home Depot and describes how a second panel was wired. This still results in only certain selected circuits being energized. If for some reason a different circuit is desired, an inside properly rated extension cord must be used.

What if Mom-I-L gets cold but her room doesn't have an available circuit for a heating pad or electric blanket? Run an extension cord or spot the old gal on the sofa in the den.

Another poster then describes the convenience of having every circuit energized and available. I agree fully with this concept...

...And for that reason use only whole-house transfer switches on our installs. The switch box has an input from the meter, an input from the generator (hardwired or use a covered MALE plug---male so the cord from the generator is female and can't easily kill you---sometimes called a shoreline connector) and a hardwired output to the house main breaker panel.

Start generator, warm up, plug into transfer switch if necessary, then flip handle on manual (or automatic--see prior post) transfer switch----ALL generator power goes to house and meter / grid is isolated. No manual breaker flipping or locking out required. No mistakes (in dark, rain, snow, blizzard, stress environment). Entire house energized for use as desired.

Another poster describes what is apparently a two-meter system required by utility to earn lower cost for electric heating. Something I've not seen. I am certain a creative DIY-er could figure out a way to get the electric heat on a genset.

What about a small-amperage (25-, 50-A) transfer switch or heavy duty double-pole double-throw (maybe a 20-A 'water heater' DPDT) switch? Normal conditions use Switch position #1 to receive feed from low-cost meter and in emergency conditions flip switch to position #2 to receive power from 'normal' grid, which instead is being fed by the generator through a whole-house transfer switch?

If the grid is down, who knows and who cares how the particular heating circuits in your home are being powered? Grid comes up, flip switch (don't forget; perhaps an indicator lamp on the 'normal' circuit side to remind to flip to 'low cost' meter).

Please continue posting comments ideas and thoughts that we may all learn.