I have an older L245DT tractor that I use to brush hog. When I started it yesterday, It started easily but only ran for about 10 seconds with a squealing sound that sounded like a belt slipping. Charged battery and tried starter again. When starter was engaged, fan (which is all I can see) moved slightly. Continued, and fan still only moved slightly, but was turning in right direction. Thought something was locked up as it has to be stored out in the weather, but when I checked, alternator, and water pump were free. Have had no trouble with this tractor and the oil has been changed regularly. Was advised by another "shade tree mechanic" that a bearing may have frozen. The squeal to me sounded like it was outside the engine, if you can understand what I mean. I know the tractor is old, but it only has 790 hours on it. Any heads up would be appreciated! Was suggested by shade tree to try to turn engine with front output shaft, and if hard, should pull bottom off and check bearings. All input appreciated!!!!
L245dt
- Thread starter donp815
- Start date
I've seen a water pump bearing freeze up and cause similar symptoms that but you say it turns normally. Hummmm..... When it ran for 10 seconds did you shut it off or did it stall?
I'm wondering if one of the clutch discs is broken or stuck. Tie down or get someone to hold the clutch in and with the PTO and transmission in gear see if the tractor can be pushed and the PTO turned by hand. Make sure the decompression lever is pulled when you're doing this! You should be able to move both freely in gear with the clutch all the way in.
I'm wondering if one of the clutch discs is broken or stuck. Tie down or get someone to hold the clutch in and with the PTO and transmission in gear see if the tractor can be pushed and the PTO turned by hand. Make sure the decompression lever is pulled when you're doing this! You should be able to move both freely in gear with the clutch all the way in.
Hi Stumpy. I was reaching for the fuel shutoff, but engine stalled before I got to it. After my post, I did try to turn the front output shaft with a 16" pipe wrench with no luck. I only tried in the operating rotation. If I turned it backwards and it was the starter, it might free it up. I couldn't get much torque on it from my position, but think it should have moved a little even at that. I have copd, and shouldn't be out in damp weather so the next day I was sick and just now have started feeling better. Sorry I haven't posted sooner, but not being able to work on tractor, I wasn't even thinking about it. Will try your suggestion today. I never even thought of the clutch plate. I still don't believe the squeal was inside the engine, but my buddy insists that he has heard them before. He has ran heavy equipment all his life, so he has more experience than me. He also said that the starter may not have disengaged and locked up, therefore the squeal and also possibly locking engine. By the way the starter was trying to bump the engine, even only if it was a very small movement, I don't think that's the problem. To me the clutch disc seems more sensible than anything else. I know I'm just grabbing at straws for something, ANYTHING!!, but a bearing!!! Thanks for the input, and I will log in tomorrow with the results. At least I never had any replies saying that it did soung like the engine. Keeping fingers crossed!!
Company left early yesterday
RELIEF!!! Love them all, but when something is pressing to do, wanna try to do it. Enough of that. Back to subject.
Ruled out clutch and starter. Engine turned freely backwards, then freely forwards to the point it was when it stalled. Not knowing what's in store, didn't try to force anything. Only rolled engine about a half rotation backward. Should I roll it until it stops? Have bad feeling something on top of one of the pistons. I have never worked on a diesel engine. Are the valves in the head? If so may be able to see a problen with the cover off? Want to call it valve cover, but trying to show no more of my ignorance than I already have. I think I can get an exploded view thru Messicks.
Looks as if this job may drag on for a while due to financial situations and 2 grandkids constantly needing help. Please don't give up on me. I am in very unfamiliar waters here and ALL advice will be very much apprediated!!! I will devote as much time as I can towards repair.
Have to rescue grandson today. Alternator on 2000 Audi went out for the 3rd time in a year.
RELIEF!!! Love them all, but when something is pressing to do, wanna try to do it. Enough of that. Back to subject.Ruled out clutch and starter. Engine turned freely backwards, then freely forwards to the point it was when it stalled. Not knowing what's in store, didn't try to force anything. Only rolled engine about a half rotation backward. Should I roll it until it stops? Have bad feeling something on top of one of the pistons. I have never worked on a diesel engine. Are the valves in the head? If so may be able to see a problen with the cover off? Want to call it valve cover, but trying to show no more of my ignorance than I already have. I think I can get an exploded view thru Messicks.
Looks as if this job may drag on for a while due to financial situations and 2 grandkids constantly needing help. Please don't give up on me. I am in very unfamiliar waters here and ALL advice will be very much apprediated!!! I will devote as much time as I can towards repair.
Have to rescue grandson today. Alternator on 2000 Audi went out for the 3rd time in a year.
Oooo an Audi. Did you have to take half the engine apart to get to the alternator? I HATE working on any Volkswagon product built after about 1990. Technically smart but some of the stupidest designs I've ever had to work on in terms of serviceability and common sense. Why oh why is the thermostat buried behind the P\S pump on the bottom of the engine?
So to clarify you can rotate it back and forth about a point less than a full revolution? Does it move smoothly or is there drag when turning? You heard no banging sounds just squealing correct? Were it not for that squealing sound I'd agree with you on piston damage theory. A squealing sound in my experience is made by two parts in constant contact and motion with one another. A binding ring perhaps or a spun bearing for example. Things hitting the pistons sounds more like ball bearings in a coffee can with a little freight train throw in. A gear with damaged teeth sounds like rumbled strips on the highway.
Yes the valves are in the head, remove the valve cover and you'll see the stems, springs, push rods, and rockers. If you take it off look for a broken valve spring, bent push rod, or bent\broken valve stem. To properly inspect the chamber for mechanical damage you really need to take the head off or use a borescope. What you can do instead is pull the glow plugs or injectors and see if there are any metal particles in the prechamber but the damage would have to be extensive to force stuff up there.
I'd do that just for caution's sake (and the fact it'll take all of 15 minutes) and then drain the oil and run the oil through a course filter (fine spaghetti strainer, paper towel and a funnel, ect) to look for metal particles. If you get chunks and shavings but can't identify them check and see if they're magnetic. If they are it's then it could be a gear bearing, a cam lobe or journal or some other things, but it's not a crankshaft or rod bearing. If they're not then it's either aluminum from the piston or white metal from the crank or rod bearings. If you get nothing unusual then you've either caught it very early or the problem is inside the combustion chamber.
Using that information it would then be time for some exploratory surgery. Whatever this is it's not looking to be cheap or easy.
Keep us in the loop and good luck!
So to clarify you can rotate it back and forth about a point less than a full revolution? Does it move smoothly or is there drag when turning? You heard no banging sounds just squealing correct? Were it not for that squealing sound I'd agree with you on piston damage theory. A squealing sound in my experience is made by two parts in constant contact and motion with one another. A binding ring perhaps or a spun bearing for example. Things hitting the pistons sounds more like ball bearings in a coffee can with a little freight train throw in. A gear with damaged teeth sounds like rumbled strips on the highway.
Yes the valves are in the head, remove the valve cover and you'll see the stems, springs, push rods, and rockers. If you take it off look for a broken valve spring, bent push rod, or bent\broken valve stem. To properly inspect the chamber for mechanical damage you really need to take the head off or use a borescope. What you can do instead is pull the glow plugs or injectors and see if there are any metal particles in the prechamber but the damage would have to be extensive to force stuff up there.
I'd do that just for caution's sake (and the fact it'll take all of 15 minutes) and then drain the oil and run the oil through a course filter (fine spaghetti strainer, paper towel and a funnel, ect) to look for metal particles. If you get chunks and shavings but can't identify them check and see if they're magnetic. If they are it's then it could be a gear bearing, a cam lobe or journal or some other things, but it's not a crankshaft or rod bearing. If they're not then it's either aluminum from the piston or white metal from the crank or rod bearings. If you get nothing unusual then you've either caught it very early or the problem is inside the combustion chamber.
Using that information it would then be time for some exploratory surgery. Whatever this is it's not looking to be cheap or easy.
Keep us in the loop and good luck!
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Needless to say, didn't get to tractor yesterday. After alternator, grandson had to go to class and didn't have time to drag tractor from behind garage so would have room to work on it. Will try to have one of my buddies do this today.
As for the Audi, the worst part is the top mounting bolt: gettin an allen wrench to fit in the small amount of clearance between it and the radiator shroud. Socket types too long. Used vice grips. Alternator definitely was not charging on vehicle, but when bench tested at Advance, it checked good. Found nothing wrong with wires or plug in. But with a new alternator, it charged great?????? I know this should be in Audi forum, but got a little carried away. Sorry. Back to tractor.
Engine rolled easily and smoothly. Was running probably about 800 rpm, no knocking or any other abnormal sound other than the high pitched squeal and then stalled. The squeal wasn't muffled as I would have expected if it came from inside the engine. But not seeing anything external, I guess it has to be inside. You're so right about being costly. Everything I've priced on diesel is definitely top dollar. Wish I could afford to take to shop and know it's done right. When I rolled it backwards, I didn't keep turning until it stopped. Just turned enough to see if it was free, then rolled it back and it did stop at same position that it stalled. I did a sort of mock run yesterday and timed what I did when it stalled, and it was less than 5 seconds that the engine actally ran. Everything was so quick and unexpected so the 800 rpm is close because that's about what it normally starts at. The only thing that seemed out of order was that after sitting out all winter, it started amazingly easy. After glowing, probably only turned over twice before starting. That's unusual even in the warmer weather. Hopefully will have new post on tractor tonight or tomorrow morning. Please bear with me Matt and anybody else that has any ideas. Every time I do something on this engine, I have to check to make sure I'm going in the right direction so this is going to take a while. Thanks.
Don
As for the Audi, the worst part is the top mounting bolt: gettin an allen wrench to fit in the small amount of clearance between it and the radiator shroud. Socket types too long. Used vice grips. Alternator definitely was not charging on vehicle, but when bench tested at Advance, it checked good. Found nothing wrong with wires or plug in. But with a new alternator, it charged great?????? I know this should be in Audi forum, but got a little carried away. Sorry. Back to tractor.
Engine rolled easily and smoothly. Was running probably about 800 rpm, no knocking or any other abnormal sound other than the high pitched squeal and then stalled. The squeal wasn't muffled as I would have expected if it came from inside the engine. But not seeing anything external, I guess it has to be inside. You're so right about being costly. Everything I've priced on diesel is definitely top dollar. Wish I could afford to take to shop and know it's done right. When I rolled it backwards, I didn't keep turning until it stopped. Just turned enough to see if it was free, then rolled it back and it did stop at same position that it stalled. I did a sort of mock run yesterday and timed what I did when it stalled, and it was less than 5 seconds that the engine actally ran. Everything was so quick and unexpected so the 800 rpm is close because that's about what it normally starts at. The only thing that seemed out of order was that after sitting out all winter, it started amazingly easy. After glowing, probably only turned over twice before starting. That's unusual even in the warmer weather. Hopefully will have new post on tractor tonight or tomorrow morning. Please bear with me Matt and anybody else that has any ideas. Every time I do something on this engine, I have to check to make sure I'm going in the right direction so this is going to take a while. Thanks.
Don
Pulled rocker cover, all looked normal. Rolled engine backwards and all tappets operated. Could hear compression on each cylinder. This time I rolled engine at least 2 full turns backwards. No abnormal sounds and rolled smoothly. I've tried to post every little detail, but when I tried to roll engine forward, I remembered I couldn't get wrench on output shaft to turn it. Reread my posts and realized that I had neglected to say that I used the starter to roll it forward. That's why I had ruled out the starter. Very sorry about that omission. The starter or hydraulic pump were my first suspicions as they were more or less on the outside of engine. Honestly, I'm scared to death that I may do something wrong and make problem worse than it already is. Do you think it could possibly be the starter Matt? My buddy ruled the starter out, but since it isn't a spun bearing (so far, with engine rolling smoothly with no restrictions) he's also having second thoughts, although he says the starter theory is pretty far fetched. I'm trying everything possible to avoid the unwelcome task of an engine teardown!!
Planning on pulling starter today. Boy if that turns out to be the problem, I will dance a jig! At least it's something I can do. If it comes to a teardown, I don't think I'm able to handle it and won't be able to afford it right away. I do want to run the oil through a strainer, but I have to get the tractor moved before I can change it. Nobody showed yesterday to help me move it and with the brush hog on and having to pull it backwards on uneven ground I can't do it alone. Thanks for all the hints, tips, ideas and any other input that this post has generated. I will keep this post active until it does come to a teardown at which point I will have to turn the job over to someone else. Keeping fingers crossed, but I know it is a very small chance it's nothing serious.
Weatherman just forecast thunderstorms for next 5 days. BUMMER!!
Planning on pulling starter today. Boy if that turns out to be the problem, I will dance a jig! At least it's something I can do. If it comes to a teardown, I don't think I'm able to handle it and won't be able to afford it right away. I do want to run the oil through a strainer, but I have to get the tractor moved before I can change it. Nobody showed yesterday to help me move it and with the brush hog on and having to pull it backwards on uneven ground I can't do it alone. Thanks for all the hints, tips, ideas and any other input that this post has generated. I will keep this post active until it does come to a teardown at which point I will have to turn the job over to someone else. Keeping fingers crossed, but I know it is a very small chance it's nothing serious.
Weatherman just forecast thunderstorms for next 5 days. BUMMER!!
If you think it's the starter, unbolt it, clamp or strap it down to something solid, and test it out for unusual operation or noise.
I think the starter is unlikely. A damaged tooth on the flywheel could explain why it wouldn't turn over but I'm not sure it explains the squealing noise or the stalling. If the starter gear was stuck engaged with the flywheel somehow and was being forced over the damaged tooth that might explain why it stalled but the forces would be tremendous and I'm don't think the starter would be functional afterwords.
That's easy to diagnose though, do what Karl said. You should also examine all the flywheel teeth.
That's easy to diagnose though, do what Karl said. You should also examine all the flywheel teeth.
Will have to wait on the weather now. Rain got me yesterday and now they're calling for snow!! A few years back, that wouldn't bother me, but now I'm very susceptible to colds and when I get one, it takes a long time to recover. Thanks a lot everybody and I'll revive the post as soon as I can get to the starter. I know the starter is a super long shot, but after checking it, if it is something else, I'll have to turn it over to a mechanic.
Don
Don
Due to other spring duties that must be done, this job has been postponed many times. Found no metal chunks in oil. Starter was full of water in bendix area, armature turns free but bendix doesn't. Don't understand how it even engaged the flywheel. Still need to inspect flywheel. Solenoid had been clicking a couple of times before starting tractor, may have been the bendix causing this. Some condensation around brush area also. After finding water, didn't try to bench test. My buddy who worked for a DC motor repair co. said he would rebuild it for me so he has it now. He took it apart in my garage and took it home with him in a box. He's slower than I am so it could be a week or two. He said solenoid didn't look like rebuildable type, but he would free the bendix and check for grounding, clean armature etc. As far as he could see at that time, all else was ok inside starter. Brushes, bendix drive gear, bearings ok. His plan is to just clean it up and put back together, then give bench test. May have to replace solenoid.
Will give you his analysis of the squeal and stall. All just opinions. Due to a worn alternator belt, (I didn't think it was that bad) alternator may have squealed after battery had set all winter and was low on voltage. Bendix may have stuck on flywheel and caused the squeal. He has no idea on the stall. He doesn't know diesels either and was looking around asking me questions that I couldn't answer either. He asked if the hydraulic pump had ever given trouble. No. He said that he thought his ideas were far out in left field, but I told him I was open to all suggestions. Still am I guess. All still pointing to internal.
Actually, over the 20+ years I've owned this tractor, All I've had to do to it is change fluids and filters, replaced original battery and replaced one front inner tube. Also did a temporary/permanent fix on a rear valve stem I broke off on a stump.
I may be doing wrong, but my plan is to get the starter back on, cross my fingers and fire it up. I do want to try to turn it by hand in proper rotation again 1st. Sorry to make such long posts, but maybe they will be of help to someone if I do find out something. So far, I don't think I've contributed anything useful at all. There are probably good diesel mechanics that are reading my posts for entertainment. haha
Anyway, thanks everybody and look for the final update. Hopefully positive.
Will give you his analysis of the squeal and stall. All just opinions. Due to a worn alternator belt, (I didn't think it was that bad) alternator may have squealed after battery had set all winter and was low on voltage. Bendix may have stuck on flywheel and caused the squeal. He has no idea on the stall. He doesn't know diesels either and was looking around asking me questions that I couldn't answer either. He asked if the hydraulic pump had ever given trouble. No. He said that he thought his ideas were far out in left field, but I told him I was open to all suggestions. Still am I guess. All still pointing to internal.
Actually, over the 20+ years I've owned this tractor, All I've had to do to it is change fluids and filters, replaced original battery and replaced one front inner tube. Also did a temporary/permanent fix on a rear valve stem I broke off on a stump.
I may be doing wrong, but my plan is to get the starter back on, cross my fingers and fire it up. I do want to try to turn it by hand in proper rotation again 1st. Sorry to make such long posts, but maybe they will be of help to someone if I do find out something. So far, I don't think I've contributed anything useful at all. There are probably good diesel mechanics that are reading my posts for entertainment. haha
Anyway, thanks everybody and look for the final update. Hopefully positive.
I'm not sure I buy that the starter motor caused all of this and the squealing was just a belt but stranger things have happened. Your plan's as good a thing as I've got. Definitely turn it over a few revolutions by hand (fuel off and comp release pulled!) while you've got the starter out of there.
Re: L245dt UPDATE
Inspected flywheel: OK Rolled engine 2 complete rotations backward and forward. Slow going in proper rotation 1/8 turn at a time. Again, felt nothing going backwards and thought could hear compression all cylinders. Couldn't swear to that tho. Only turning forward very slow and couldn't really tell anything. Engaged starter, engine turned about 1/2 turn and stopped. Still seems to me like something on top of one of the pistons. Have it in my garage now and planning to do teardown piece at a time. Will look at Matts' idea on combustion chamber 1st. Not real sure how to go about it, but I will learn! From there, not sure where to go to. Will be a while as I think I am going to buy a B8200 from a friend just to get brush hogging done. Tractor has set for 2 years and hydraulics and power steering don't operate. I'm hoping filter and fluid.
Probably should put money toward repairs on L245, but I think he made me a decent offer. $2000 @ $75 month, no interest. He did tell me I could use it this summer for nothing and decide at end of season. Of course that means I have to get hydraulics working before using. Should be cheap price to pay for 3-4 months brushogging. I will be very happy at that. Hopefully, will be able to get going for about $300 ($100 delivery for 48 miles) and if it works ok, another $200?? for new oil, filters, oil, air. THANK HEAVEN FOR VISA!
I do appreciate everybodys' input on my L245. Would have liked to see post from Vic on problem. Some probably think I'm too over cautious, but I've never been inside a diesel before and at the cost of parts, I can't afford to make a big mistake on the engine. Thanks again everybody.
Inspected flywheel: OK Rolled engine 2 complete rotations backward and forward. Slow going in proper rotation 1/8 turn at a time. Again, felt nothing going backwards and thought could hear compression all cylinders. Couldn't swear to that tho. Only turning forward very slow and couldn't really tell anything. Engaged starter, engine turned about 1/2 turn and stopped. Still seems to me like something on top of one of the pistons. Have it in my garage now and planning to do teardown piece at a time. Will look at Matts' idea on combustion chamber 1st. Not real sure how to go about it, but I will learn! From there, not sure where to go to. Will be a while as I think I am going to buy a B8200 from a friend just to get brush hogging done. Tractor has set for 2 years and hydraulics and power steering don't operate. I'm hoping filter and fluid.
Probably should put money toward repairs on L245, but I think he made me a decent offer. $2000 @ $75 month, no interest. He did tell me I could use it this summer for nothing and decide at end of season. Of course that means I have to get hydraulics working before using. Should be cheap price to pay for 3-4 months brushogging. I will be very happy at that. Hopefully, will be able to get going for about $300 ($100 delivery for 48 miles) and if it works ok, another $200?? for new oil, filters, oil, air. THANK HEAVEN FOR VISA!
I do appreciate everybodys' input on my L245. Would have liked to see post from Vic on problem. Some probably think I'm too over cautious, but I've never been inside a diesel before and at the cost of parts, I can't afford to make a big mistake on the engine. Thanks again everybody.
Has the starter been rebuilt or replaced yet? I would lean toward the starter and/or cables and connections. You rolled the crank two revolutions by hand, but the starter can't spin the crank, right?
Have you tried spinning it with the starter while the compression release is open?
Have you tried spinning it with the starter while the compression release is open?
Don,
I'm with Mag on this. Look at the simple stuff first.
Make sure it's in neutral. Sounds stupid, but just making sure it's not in low gear with the brake stuck on...
Take off the fan belt. It will not hurt the engine to run for a minute or two with the fan belt off. Why? Because it will eliminate the alternator and water pump as potential squeal problems.
Next, make sure the battery is good and fully charged. It sounds to me like you are trying to crank it with a dead battery. Also check the cables. Make sure all the connections are good. Any bad or "iffy" cables need to be replaced. Diesels require a starting system that is in really good shape. If your battery has a bad cell, it will act exactly as you describe because it won't have the amperage available to turn the engine past the compression stroke. Hence, the engine will rotate 1/2 turn and stop.
Drain the fuel and replace the fuel filter before you try starting it again. The stall might have been caused by water in the fuel tank. The tractor may have initially started with the old fuel that was in the filter and injection pump. Then, after it started, it started to draw fuel from the tank only it was water instead. The fuel floats on top of the water, so if there was water in the tank that would give you your stall. You will obviously need to bleed the entire fuel system before trying to start it again...
Finally, again to repeat Mag's advice, try engaging the starter with the compression release pulled. Or, you can always pull the glow plugs and engage the starter that way to make sure it spins over okay. Either way, it should spin over easily and will put your mind at ease. Much easier than tearing apart the engine when you don't know what the problem is.
Just my $.02,
Steve
I'm with Mag on this. Look at the simple stuff first.
Make sure it's in neutral. Sounds stupid, but just making sure it's not in low gear with the brake stuck on...
Take off the fan belt. It will not hurt the engine to run for a minute or two with the fan belt off. Why? Because it will eliminate the alternator and water pump as potential squeal problems.
Next, make sure the battery is good and fully charged. It sounds to me like you are trying to crank it with a dead battery. Also check the cables. Make sure all the connections are good. Any bad or "iffy" cables need to be replaced. Diesels require a starting system that is in really good shape. If your battery has a bad cell, it will act exactly as you describe because it won't have the amperage available to turn the engine past the compression stroke. Hence, the engine will rotate 1/2 turn and stop.
Drain the fuel and replace the fuel filter before you try starting it again. The stall might have been caused by water in the fuel tank. The tractor may have initially started with the old fuel that was in the filter and injection pump. Then, after it started, it started to draw fuel from the tank only it was water instead. The fuel floats on top of the water, so if there was water in the tank that would give you your stall. You will obviously need to bleed the entire fuel system before trying to start it again...
Finally, again to repeat Mag's advice, try engaging the starter with the compression release pulled. Or, you can always pull the glow plugs and engage the starter that way to make sure it spins over okay. Either way, it should spin over easily and will put your mind at ease. Much easier than tearing apart the engine when you don't know what the problem is.
Just my $.02,
Steve
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Starter has been rebuilt and installed. Battery charged and holds almost 13 volts steady with battery tester. Held for about 20 seconds instead of recommended 10. When trying starter, sounds strong but stops abruptly after about 1/2 turn. Cannot turn forward even with pipe wrench, but will turn backwards. Planning on starting with injectors 1st, then go on as needed. I welcome and thank everybody for their .02 cents worth I am not going to let this post die. Will keep updating as I do anything.
I picked up the B8200 yesterday afternoon and will be changing fluids and filters on it after the holidays. Pulled hydraulic suction yesterday and looked like it had had water in oil. Filter completely plugged. Cleaned with diesel and can see light through it, but may replace anyway. $42 for filter and $?? for approximately 5 gallons of fluid. Tractor budget will be shot until mid June. I decided to go this way as I needed brush hogging done earlier in spring and this way I can be taking more time and care on the L245. Again, thanks to all.
I may have to start a new post on the B8200 as all I got was the tractor. No manuals or anything else. Have read several posts before deciding to get it. When I get into this forum, time flies by and I don't realize how much time I spend until I shut down. I have really learned a lot from everybodys' posts and enjoy reading them. More after I get B8200 running and some brush hogging done.
Don
I am not going to let this post die. Will keep updating as I do anything. I picked up the B8200 yesterday afternoon and will be changing fluids and filters on it after the holidays. Pulled hydraulic suction yesterday and looked like it had had water in oil. Filter completely plugged. Cleaned with diesel and can see light through it, but may replace anyway. $42 for filter and $?? for approximately 5 gallons of fluid. Tractor budget will be shot until mid June. I decided to go this way as I needed brush hogging done earlier in spring and this way I can be taking more time and care on the L245. Again, thanks to all.
I may have to start a new post on the B8200 as all I got was the tractor. No manuals or anything else. Have read several posts before deciding to get it. When I get into this forum, time flies by and I don't realize how much time I spend until I shut down. I have really learned a lot from everybodys' posts and enjoy reading them. More after I get B8200 running and some brush hogging done.
Don
