BX2200 not running with key in run

[dover7838]

Long time lurker, first time poster. You all have been a deep well of knowledge for other problems. Thank you for that, and any help in advance.

that said, looking for suggestions.

have a 2002/03 (can’t remember year off hand) BX2200 that won’t stay running with key in “run”.

Based upon advice here, replaced the “stop” solenoid.

That didn’t fix it. The “rod” on the new solenoid is staying out, with key in run. If I push it in, it will stay in.
Replaced the key assembly thinking it had caused the problem. It is still doing it.

checked (none blown) and replaced all the fuses under the dash. Still doing it,

so, in order to get tractor to move, I pull the “stop” solenoid. Sometimes when I push it back in to kill it, the tractor will shut down. Other times, it won’t.

I noticed the turn signals and hazard lights will not work. Getting a slight buzzing sound under dash when hazards on.

However, Head LED lights, and additional LED ROPS lights still work (upgraded alternator based upon suggestions on here).

I’ve seen where water can cause issues on the switches. I try and keep tractor covered. Unfortunately, seemingly been raining for a week straight so it hasn’t had a chance to dry out.

Am I dealing with two different issues? Or one interconnected issue?

 

[Dave_eng]

Water in relays can cause issues with performance and noise.

Your model of tractor which is usually shown as BX1800, BX2200 has two completely different stop solenoid configurations as frequent poster Henro has finally drilled into my head.

On the BX1800 with the D722 engine, the stop solenoid is powered to stop the engine.

On the BX2200 with the D905 engine the stop solenoid has two independent internal coils. A PULL IN coil marked in BLUE and a HOLD coil marked in GREEN.

Based upon your description of engine wont stay running, you need to investigate the GREEN circuit for the HOLD coil which gets power from the Acc position on the key switch and then flows through a fuse to get to the Solenoid hold coil.

The Acc position of the key switch also feeds other circuits like the Blinker. ie. 4 way flasher

Dave

 

[Henro]

Just to build on what Dave said, the BX2200 does not have the timer relay that is show with the designation D722 next to it in the drawing.

If the BX2200 starts but does not stay running when the key moves back to the run position, there is an issue with the hold coil circuit of the fuel cutoff solenoid, as Dave said. I think you could verify this by removing the solenoid and watching it when you start the tractor. The armature pin should pull in when the starter turns the motor over, and should stay pulled in when the key returns to the run position. [EDIT: To do this with the standard BX2200 wiring, you would have to jumper between the solenoid case and the engine block or negative battery terminal. Otherwise the solenoid would not activate, and the engine would not turn over, since the solenoid start coil is part of the starter solenoid circuit.]

You can download the workshop manual for the BX2200 from Kubotabooks.com. The WS manual has a procedure for checking the fuel cutoff solenoid, if you want to go that route.

Since the engine starts, you pretty much know the start coil of the solenoid is working properly. Since you replaced the solenoid, it is likely the issue is not the solenoid, but you do need to verify it is operating correctly just to be sure.

What is not so obvious looking at the BX2200 schematic, is that the starter solenoid circuit is completed through the start coil of the fuel cutoff solenoid. If you unplug the solenoid, the starter will not activate.

You could unplug the fuel cutoff solenoid, and check voltage on the two wires feeding the solenoid. One should have voltage on it when the key is turned to the on (run) position as well as when the key is turned to the start position. This is the hold coil wire. The other wire should have voltage on it only when the key is in the start position. This is the start coil wire.

Since the tractor runs with the solenoid out of the injector pump, the injector pump seems to be working normally. One thing that puzzles me is how you are getting the tractor to start with the solenoid out of the injector pump. This should not happen.
[Edit: This is because the started solenoid circuit is connected to ground through the fuel cutoff solenoid start coil.]

This brings up another possibility. Could your BX2200 be one of the last units produced that uses the wiring scheme of the next BX version?

IF so, everything I have written does not apply to your BX, as it would be wired like a BX23 I believe, if that was the next model in the series.

Does your tractor have a switch on the seat, that senses operator presence? IF so the diagram posted by Dave would not apply to your tractor, as it would be one of the rare ones that have an OPC module and different wiring than most BX2200s.

I am relying on my memory telling me that I read someone here on OTT reporting his BX2200 had an OPC module...

 

[lugbolt]

Here is a story that you might find interesting.

About 2008 I was working at a dealer, had a BX2200 show up that wouldn't start. Once in the shop I cranked it over, and it cranked fine just wouldn't kick off. No fuel. Tank full, etc, solenoid was not releasing so the rack wouldn't move fuel to the injunktors. Replaced the stuck solenoid. Great now that works. Fired it up it runs awesome. Went to go turn it off to go do the work order paperwork and it doesn't shut off. Nothing. Had to manually kill it. Since the solenoid is on a fused circuit, I checked the fuse-and sure enough it was blowed. Put a new fuse in and fired it up, then when I go to turn it off it just keep running and running. Blowed another fuse. So I got to fiddling with it trying to figure out why it's blowing fuses. In that process I thought I found the problem (shorted wire by the loader frame)-repaired, stuck a fuse in and when I turned the key on I hit the hazard switch somehow maybe with my knee or something. Engine runs fine. Turned key to off, hazards keep blinking but the engine would come on every time the hazard lamps would turn off. Soon as the hazards come on engine would shut off. WEIRD!! My coworker looked over at me from across the shop thinking I was doing something weird, so I called him over and said look at this...why's it doing it?

We fiddled with it for about an hour and he found a pair of wires back under the seat that are normally not connected to anything (accessories I guess?)-they were plugged together. Unplugged them, engine starts/stops normally. Hazards work normally. Tail lamps work normally. Everything works perfect so I taped the wires off to the harness and sent it--I did tell the customer about it when he showed up and showed him the two wires that I taped off, and he said they ran it out of fuel and couldn't get it to start so they thought those wires was supposed to be plugged together.

Point being, look closely at your wiring, fuses, and the rest of the electrical system--particularly the grounds. You can use the voltage drop test to scrutinize your grounds very easily--and that test has saved my butt a bunch of times.

 

[dover7838]

I appreciate the responses. Looks like you all have given me some good places start to look for the trouble spot.

thank you

 

[dover7838]

I appreciate the responses. Looks like you all have given me some good places start to look for the trouble spot.

thank you

so, needed the tractor to take trash can up for pickup. Wanted to double check some of the stuff I posted before. I’m just starting to learn about engines, rebuilding, etc so my apologies if my nomenclature is wrong.

As stated, tractor starts right up, but once key is put to “run” it dies,

If I pull the “stop” solenoid from the engine, it will start right up, and stay running.

if I put the stop solenoid back in place, it will die. The pin on it is staying extended even in “run”. However, after running for a minute or two, if I put the stop solenoid back in place, it won’t kill the engine. Pin still extended though. Have to kill with the fuel cutoff on the injector (?).

If I put slight pressure on the pin, it will retract as it should. It stays retracted. Turn the key to off, it pops out. So, for some reason, the stop solenoid isn’t retracting as it should when starting and putting key to run.

“New” (aftermarket I assume) solenoid I purchased off eBay from a link on either this forum, or another Kubota forum.

haven’t traced wires yet but it seems the stop solenoid is getting power. Just not enough?

could it be a battery that is slowly dying? I had it on a charger, but that didn’t change anything.

thanks!

 

[Henro]

so, needed the tractor to take trash can up for pickup. Wanted to double check some of the stuff I posted before. I’m just starting to learn about engines, rebuilding, etc so my apologies if my nomenclature is wrong.

As stated, tractor starts right up, but once key is put to “run” it dies,

If I pull the “stop” solenoid from the engine, it will start right up, and stay running.

if I put the stop solenoid back in place, it will die. The pin on it is staying extended even in “run”. However, after running for a minute or two, if I put the stop solenoid back in place, it won’t kill the engine. Pin still extended though. Have to kill with the fuel cutoff on the injector (?).

If I put slight pressure on the pin, it will retract as it should. It stays retracted. Turn the key to off, it pops out. So, for some reason, the stop solenoid isn’t retracting as it should when starting and putting key to run.

“New” (aftermarket I assume) solenoid I purchased off eBay from a link on either this forum, or another Kubota forum.

haven’t traced wires yet but it seems the stop solenoid is getting power. Just not enough?

could it be a battery that is slowly dying? I had it on a charger, but that didn’t change anything.

thanks!

Your situation is exactly the same as what I had a year or two ago. My cheap solenoid off ebay works perfectly.

What is strange is that you say putting the solenoid back in after the tractor runs for a couple minutes, does not cause the engine to shut down. Are you SURE the solenoid pin is fully extending when you do that? Do you mean after the key is turned to the off position. I assume so.

Battery voltage is required to keep the solenoid pin pulled in fully. The pin is held against a spring, so if the battery was weak it is possible the pin would not be held fully retracted. BUT you seem to have enough battery capacity to start the engine, which means you are retracting the fuel cutoff solenoid pin enough. And the pin should fully extend when the key is turned off, and voltage is removed from the hold coil.

It is possible you have a after market solenoid that is defective. Perhaps the pin is not fully extending after it is retracted? This would be opposite the initial problem, but possible with the replacement solenoid. The fact that you need to put some pressure on the solenoid pin to get it to retract is a hint that the replacement solenoid is defective. BUT I am not sure how the solenoid would work that way, if the wiring is like my BX2200. In order to work, if the solenoid is out, there needs to be a jumper between the solenoid case and the tractor ground on my BX2200.

This leads back to my previous question: Dose your BX2200 have a seat switch or OPC?

An answer to this question is VERY important to troubleshooting your problem. It is not that hard to lift the seat and take a look for a switch. IF your tractor is one of the last produced it MAY have the wiring of the BX2230, which I think is the next model, and I believe includes an OPC.

 

[dover7838]

Your situation is exactly the same as what I had a year or two ago. My cheap solenoid off ebay works perfectly.

What is strange is that you say putting the solenoid back in after the tractor runs for a couple minutes, does not cause the engine to shut down. Are you SURE the solenoid pin is fully extending when you do that? Do you mean after the key is turned to the off position. I assume so.

Battery voltage is required to keep the solenoid pin pulled in fully. The pin is held against a spring, so if the battery was weak it is possible the pin would not be held fully retracted. BUT you seem to have enough battery capacity to start the engine, which means you are retracting the fuel cutoff solenoid pin enough. And the pin should fully extend when the key is turned off, and voltage is removed from the hold coil.

It is possible you have a after market solenoid that is defective. Perhaps the pin is not fully extending after it is retracted? This would be opposite the initial problem, but possible with the replacement solenoid. The fact that you need to put some pressure on the solenoid pin to get it to retract is a hint that the replacement solenoid is defective. BUT I am not sure how the solenoid would work that way, if the wiring is like my BX2200. In order to work, if the solenoid is out, there needs to be a jumper between the solenoid case and the tractor ground on my BX2200.

This leads back to my previous question: Dose your BX2200 have a seat switch or OPC?

An answer to this question is VERY important to troubleshooting your problem. It is not that hard to lift the seat and take a look for a switch. IF your tractor is one of the last produced it MAY have the wiring of the BX2230, which I think is the next model, and I believe includes an OPC.

There are no wires or pressure switches on the seat.

 

[Fordtech86]

Ugg these wiring diagrams are painful on an iPhone. Feel free to ignore as well, I have no experience with your tractor.

Just from reading through, it appears you have excessive resistance somewhere on the hold circuit. It may not have enough voltage available to initially activate the solenoid but enough to hold it. There will be a spike when it initially switches on when key is released to run. Being there is light issues to I would put it all back together and pull this fuse

And see if the problem persists.

 

[Henro]

There are no wires or pressure switches on the seat.

That is a sign that your BX2200 is the same as mine.

With mine the starter will not activate to turn the engine if the fuel cut off solenoid is unplugged, or removed. If yours does, something is different between our tractors.

Try unplugging the solenoid and see what happens.

Second important test would be to measure voltage on the wire feeding the solenoid hold coil, as close as possible to the coil itself.

IF you unplug the solenoid and the engine dose not turn over, and if you measure close to full battery voltage on the wire feeding the hold coil of the solenoid, chances are very high you have a bad solenoid.

 

[Fordtech86]

if you measure close to full battery voltage on the wire feeding the hold coil of the solenoid, chances are very high you have a bad solenoid.

Ive seen he has replaced the switch and solenoid, both could have been avoided with some “quick” electrical tests with a meter (I say quick but don’t know how accessible the items are. Checking for voltage at the solenoid with it unplugged will not give you the whole story. If it has high resistance in the circuit before the solenoid it will still read 12 volts on a volt meter. But with that said I would start with checking voltage there at the solenoid connector with it unplugged. If there is 12 volts then reconnect it.

Then take a volt meter, take one lead and put it on the ignition switch run terminal

And the other lead one the stop solenoid hold circuit wire (solenoid has to be plugged in, will need to back probe the connector. If its has seals on the wiring in the connector you need to make sure you touch the wiring with the probe)

I would remove that other 15 amp fuse for the time being before testing. If there is any measure voltage (over .5 volts) there is excessive resistance in that wire. We can rule out the ground side of the solenoid since its working when starting.

Being there is issues with the lights on the other circuit fed from the ignition switch my suspicion would be there is high resistance in this part of the circuit.

 

[dover7838]

To answer one posters question, the Tractor will start with fuel cut of solenoid plugged in, but physically disconnected from its mounting point on the engine.

Predictably the Tractor will *not* start if it is not plugged in electrically.

 

[dover7838]

Doing some investigation on this. Double checked the fuses, replaced any ones I thought were possibly suspect again. Have the stop solenoid pulled.

When I turn the key to start, the solenoid retracts. As soon as key turns to run, it pops out. If I push the solenoid pin in, it will stay retracted, and stays there until I turn the key to off.

On a whim, installed the old solenoid again, and it behaves the same way.

it’s obviously getting enough juice to retract the pin to “start”, but doesn’t hold it after key is put to run. But will hold it in, if it’s pushed in.

still no hazard or turn signals either.

 

[Fordtech86]

Doing some investigation on this. Double checked the fuses, replaced any ones I thought were possibly suspect again. Have the stop solenoid pulled.

When I turn the key to start, the solenoid retracts. As soon as key turns to run, it pops out. If I push the solenoid pin in, it will stay retracted, and stays there until I turn the key to off.

On a whim, installed the old solenoid again, and it behaves the same way.

it’s obviously getting enough juice to retract the pin to “start”, but doesn’t hold it after key is put to run. But will hold it in, if it’s pushed in.

still no hazard or turn signals either.

Do you have a voltmeter?

 

[Henro]

To answer one posters question, the Tractor will start with fuel cut of solenoid plugged in, but physically disconnected from its mounting point on the engine.

Predictably the Tractor will *not* start if it is not plugged in electrically.

All I can say, is if you look back at the schematic drawing for the BX2200, that DaveEng posted, which I can verify is accurate for MY BX2200, if you are able to read electrical schematics, you will see that it is impossible for the fuel cutoff solenoid to energize with the solenoid removed from the engine, since the connection to the engine provides the path to ground for the electrical circuit.

Edit: The starter solenoid circuit also requires the ground connection, so the starter would not turn over if the solenoid was disconnected from ground. BUT if one of the wires connected to the solenoid connector were grounded, it might be possible for something to happen while the solenoid was hanging in the air. But a grounded wire should result in a blown fuse, which you appear not to be seeing.

Yours is starting with the solenoid hanging in the air and not touching anything. This DEFINITELY would NOT happen with my BX2200.

Fordtech86 gave you some things to check. I suggest you use a VOM (volt ohm meter) and check some of the things he suggested.

I keep coming back to the possibility that your BX2200 may have wiring of the BX2230, or whatever the next model was. Not having a seat switch does not rule out that possibility. That was an assumption on my part. But the fact that your tractor does not work like mine with the fuel cutoff solenoid is NOT an assumption, going by what you have reported.

Please do update the thread with your solution, when you eventually discover the problem cause.

 

[Fordtech86]

Yours is starting with the solenoid hanging in the air and not touching anything. This DEFINITELY would NOT happen with my BX2200.

I obviously don’t have a machine in front on me, this is just speculation off the wiring diagram…

does yours have a three wire connection at the solenoid connector?

It appears to have a ground wire, not grounded through the body of the solenoid, so as long as its plugged it it still has a path to ground even when its hanging.

It also appears the solenoid is grounded through the body of the starter

The plunger just makes the connection to the contact for the stop solenoid when starter solenoid is activated. So the starter solenoid would need to activate first to do this regardless of if the connection is made at the solenoid.

 

[dover7838]

I obviously don’t have a machine in front on me, this is just speculation off the wiring diagram…

does yours have a three wire connection at the solenoid connector?

Yes, it is a three wire connector at the stop solenoid.

It appears to have a ground wire, not grounded through the body of the solenoid, so as long as its plugged it it still has a path to ground even when its hanging.

The plunger just makes the connection to the contact for the stop solenoid when starter solenoid is activated. So the starter solenoid would need to activate first to do this regardless of if the connection is made at the solenoid.

it would make sense that it has its own ground as there is some kind of gasket material on the block where it connects. I suppose the screws could be counted on to carry the ground

in addition to no hazard or turn signals, dashlights for those aren’t coming in either. However, the flasher relay is getting power, as it is “clicking”.

the lights for “glow plug” are coming o. when starting the tractor.

I do have a voltmeter, unfortunately it just has probes and not clips. Because of that, and distances between the check points, haven’t been able to put the meter on.

 

[Fordtech86]

Yes, it is a three wire connector at the stop solenoid.



it would make sense that it has its own ground as there is some kind of gasket material on the block where it connects. I suppose the screws could be counted on to carry the ground

in addition to no hazard or turn signals, dashlights for those aren’t coming in either. However, the flasher relay is getting power, as it is “clicking”.

the lights for “glow plug” are coming o. when starting the tractor.

I do have a voltmeter, unfortunately it just has probes and not clips. Because of that, and distances between the check points, haven’t been able to put the meter on.

refer back to post 11, 3rd pic. Without doing any testing, and based on what Ive read and reading the diagram, I would bet a beer that the problem is on the circuit I highlighted between the ignition switch and fuse panel. I do not know the tractor specifically, but issues could be connections on either end of that circuit, corrosion in the wiring, melted connection on backside of fuse panel, etc…

 

[Henro]

I obviously don’t have a machine in front on me, this is just speculation off the wiring diagram…

does yours have a three wire connection at the solenoid connector?

View attachment 68189
It appears to have a ground wire, not grounded through the body of the solenoid, so as long as its plugged it it still has a path to ground even when its hanging.

It also appears the solenoid is grounded through the body of the starter

View attachment 68190
The plunger just makes the connection to the contact for the stop solenoid when starter solenoid is activated. So the starter solenoid would need to activate first to do this regardless of if the connection is made at the solenoid.

In my case, the plug has a two wires, not three, and the ground connection is through the connection of the solenoid body to the frame. That is why the engine will not crank with the solenoid in the air, on my BX2200. Electrically that is the same as the schematic you show. But physically, there is no third wire.

Again, this causes me to wonder if the OP's BX2200 actually has the wiring of the BX2230. If his has a three wire connector to the solenoid, it is obviously different than mine.

But I bought a solenoid off ebay, advertised for the BX2200, and it came with the same two wire connector and was identical to the original unit. So I wonder what the OP actually bought, if it has a three wire connector on it? Obviously, he bought what he needed...

Edit: Also, my solenoid mounted against the injector pump housing without any gasket or sealant.

 

[Fordtech86]

In my case, the plug has a two wires, not three, and the ground connection is through the connection of the solenoid body to the frame. That is why the engine will not crank with the solenoid in the air, on my BX2200. Electrically that is the same as the schematic you show. But physically, there is no third wire.

Again, this causes me to wonder if the OP's BX2200 actually has the wiring of the BX2230. If his has a three wire connector to the solenoid, it is obviously different than mine.

But I bought a solenoid off ebay, advertised for the BX2200, and it came with the same two wire connector and was identical to the original unit. So I wonder what the OP actually bought, if it has a three wire connector on it? Obviously, he bought what he needed...

Edit: Also, my solenoid mounted against the injector pump housing without any gasket or sealant.

Cant tell the difference because it looks like they used the same picture for both solenoids, but there is a s/n break for 2 different solenoid p/n for that

also interesting the starters are different which may explain why yours wont crank with out the solenoid attached. By the wiring diagram it should as I described earlier.