B3350 Prediction Confirmed

SDT

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This week I learned that, as predicted, the mechanically injected 1.5 L 4 cylinder engine used in the B3350, F series and high end ZTR mowers is being replaced with a common rail design. This should eliminate issues with regeneration just as Kubota has apparently resolved such.

I've expected this for some time but it is occurring more quickly than expected.

Nothing regarding timing yet, but the introduction appears imminent.

Stay tuned.

SDT
 

dirtydeed

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That's good news. I really wanted one, but chose the 2650 instead...dealers wouldn't even sell me a 3350 despite having them on their lots.
 

SRG

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Were/are the ZD331's powered by the same 1.5 as the 3350? Did they suffer the same issues as the 3350's?
 

SDT

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Were/are the ZD331's powered by the same 1.5 as the 3350? Did they suffer the same issues as the 3350's?
Don't know the model numbers(s), but yes, and yes.

SDT
 

SDT

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The jury is still out but I predict a small HP increase and a new tractor model number to distance Kubota from the somewhat trouble prone B3350.

How about a B3560?

SDT
 

lugbolt

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ZD331 is completely different than B3350, different engine (D1305 vs V1505T). It shares no commonalities other than some hardware, nuts bolts, maybe a spring, thermostat, etc. B3350 is 4 cylinder with a baby turbocharger(v series engine) and ZD331 is 3 cylinder with natural aspiration (non turbo D series).

ZD331 hasn't been in production for a while, SDT maybe you're thinking of the ZD1511?

I haven't heard of the 3350 changing engines? Just spoke with some higher ups yesterday but we didn't specifically talk about it much, more focus was on the RTV-XG850, couple excavators, SVL's and SSV's.
 

chim

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Were/are the ZD331's powered by the same 1.5 as the 3350? Did they suffer the same issues as the 3350's?
I have read a number of posts concerning that engine. Some claims were made that problems stemmed from colder temps and running the engine at lower RPM's. If those two statements are true, it would seem zero turns shouldn't suffer from the problems because they are normally used only in warmer weather and run WOT.
 

sheepfarmer

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My vote, not that I have one, if they are going to put a common rail engine in a tractor with that size footprint, would be to incorporate the nicer designed transmission of the L3560 series tractors too. That and a better cab would alleviate the other major complaint of the B2650, B3350 about the hst whine when mowing and snow blowing. The throttle control, cruise control, and hst pedal linkages are pretty crude on the B2650 compared to the L3560. I use both, and believe me I am grateful for the cab and maneuverabilitynof the little B, but more of the L tractor features would be even better.
 
Last edited:

motorhead

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This week I learned that, as predicted, the mechanically injected 1.5 L 4 cylinder engine used in the B3350, F series and high end ZTR mowers is being replaced with a common rail design. This should eliminate issues with regeneration just as Kubota has apparently resolved such.

I've expected this for some time but it is occurring more quickly than expected.

Nothing regarding timing yet, but the introduction appears imminent.

Stay tuned.

SDT
Why do you think that a common rail engine will do away with re-gen? Cummins "B" series engines in Dodge pickups have been common rail since 2003 and from January 1, 2007, the 6.7 ltr engine came out and also has regen emissions equipment and DPF filter. 2013, Cummins had to switch to DEF fluid.
So were the problems with the 1.5 due to the emission equipment? I have a 2009 B3200 with the 4 cyl V1505.
 

chim

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There's a similar discussion on another board. On there, I stated that while looking at a pre-Tier IV Kioti at a Massey Ferguson dealership. The salesman said that MF will be releasing tractors with CRD that will have ony a catalytic converter. Mahindra has had their "mCRD" engines that do just that for some time now. That would be two manufacturers that eliminate the regen via CRD, and three if Kubota follows suit.

I'm no engineer, so whether the CRD will only make it possible to meet Tier IV on certain sizes of engines remains to be seen. If CRD is effective and becomes widespread it could have an impact on the market for both new and used tractors.
 

SDT

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Why do you think that a common rail engine will do away with re-gen? Cummins "B" series engines in Dodge pickups have been common rail since 2003 and from January 1, 2007, the 6.7 ltr engine came out and also has regen emissions equipment and DPF filter. 2013, Cummins had to switch to DEF fluid.
So were the problems with the 1.5 due to the emission equipment? I have a 2009 B3200 with the 4 cyl V1505.
Multiple reasons, including history. Kubota has had few regeneration issues with other common rail engines.

SDT
 

motorhead

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It will be interesting to see. Common rail definitely cleans up the soot due to much higher injection event pressures. My 5.9 Cummins generates as high as 23,000psi on the common rail and the injectors are piezoelectric fired with multiple injection events per firing. The ultra high pressure insures a much finer droplet size, thus a more complete burn. Turbocharging will help too. The negative is way more electronics, sensors and such. I must say that My Cummins, 5.9 Dodge has been trouble free for over 100,000 miles.
One other thing that you need to be vigilant with a Common Rail engine is you have to have extremely CLEAN and very low micron filtration fuel. Any contaminants in the fuel, at the high pressures, will destroy the injectors.
 

lescarpentier

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B3350
Oct 12, 2016
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This week I learned that, as predicted, the mechanically injected 1.5 L 4 cylinder engine used in the B3350, F series and high end ZTR mowers is being replaced with a common rail design. This should eliminate issues with regeneration just as Kubota has apparently resolved such.

I've expected this for some time but it is occurring more quickly than expected.

Nothing regarding timing yet, but the introduction appears imminent.

Stay tuned.

SDT
Can you provide a source? A link?
Your post begins by stating an absolute,however in closing you say that "
Nothing regarding timing yet, but the introduction appears imminent".

The mower you must be referring to is the F3990 which uses the same engine as the B3350.

The B50 series has been around for about 5 years now so a new model coming out soon is very predictable .A horsepower increase is unlikely for the B3350 when the power to weight ratio is already probably the highest in the industry and any more power wouldn't make sense for such a small light hobby tractor. I don't like dinking around with the regen either but to be honest in the 490 some odd hours I put on my tractor I have only had one problem with the regen system at 280 some odd hours which required a new $1800.00 reformer which luckily was covered by the warranty.I have had much more problems with the glitchy safety switches than with the regen system.
 

chim

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.....................I have only had one problem with the regen system at 280 some odd hours which required a new $1800.00 reformer which luckily was covered by the warranty.I have had much more problems with the glitchy safety switches than with the regen system.
When the warranty is no longer in effect, I'd much rather adjust a "glitchy" switch on my hydro pedal than be faced with an $1,800.00 bill.
 

lugbolt

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Why do you think that a common rail engine will do away with re-gen? Cummins "B" series engines in Dodge pickups have been common rail since 2003 and from January 1, 2007, the 6.7 ltr engine came out and also has regen emissions equipment and DPF filter. 2013, Cummins had to switch to DEF fluid.
So were the problems with the 1.5 due to the emission equipment? I have a 2009 B3200 with the 4 cyl V1505.

Simply switching to common rail doesn't necessarily "fix" anything, and it won't do away with re-gen at all. Contrary. Read on.

On the B3350, the regen system uses what they call a reformer system. In short, it is a regular mechanically injected engine which they basically added a separate fuel injector with a separate system of running it, and a blower which work together to inject fuel and air directly into the exhaust system, which heats up the DPF so that it will "burn off" soot. Lots of extra stuff to run the reformer system.

With common rail, the injectors are electronically controlled. They run at higher pressures. With this type system, they are able to stagger injection events such that they can have up to 5 or 6 small injections of fuel at or near TDC of the engine, which does several things. Runs quieter (which apparently wasn't a concern with the early 24v ISB's), smoother, starts better, makes more torque, responds to load changes faster and more accurately. But the main thing is that the faster injectors and the system running the injectors allows them to inject fuel during or close to an exhaust stroke which makes the DPF work. Combine all of the benefits of more precise injection and you get less DPF regenerations, longer intervals between regen's, and faster regen's-and of course the other "side" benefits (quieter, smoother etc). Common rail systems (CRS) are also direct injected, where fuel is shot right into the cylinder-which helps the engine make a little more power and becomes more responsive to throttle and load changes. There's tons of benefits. BUT the downfall is fuel contamination. There should be zero contamination. Water? Dirt? Gasoline? Those will cost some money to "fix" and warranty is very reluctant to help with those cases. I've seen tractors totaled because of vandalism/contamination-if that tells you anything.

Kubota CRS is not new. It's been out for YEARS, way back in the early 2000's that I'm aware of, maybe sooner. I had to do some extensive training on the M108X back in the 2000's and we nearly burned one tractor engine up playing with the injection settings. We had the manifold and turbo glowing nearly the same color as the hood. Yes it's possible. Those didn't have DPF's but they knew that the DPF's were coming, which is why the were messing with it way back then.
 

sheepfarmer

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Lugbolt, surely they wouldn't go to the trouble of changing the engine fuel supply to common rail and not ditch the reformer system which is half the problem? I was imagining a setup similar to the L3560.
 

Newlyme

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Lugbolt,
On the Volkswagen CRS system each injector has an individual code on it. When you install a new injector you have to program that number to the computer. Is Kubota’s CRS system the same way? You cannot just swap one or a set of injectors without programming the computer for the new injector(s)?