B1700 won't start

[simpson1]

Can you explain further as the wiring diagram shows one power wire to the solenoid and one ground. It does show two coils inside the solenoid.

I am not trying to disagree with what you are saying but to better understand what I see in the wsm's

From looking at other models stop solenoids wired the same way with one external power wire, I see Kubota uses an internal set of contacts on the pull in coil that, once it moves, cuts the pull in coil out of the circuit and the run coil continues. If the engine continues to run with the key in start, the solenoid must have moved and opened the pull in coil contacts leaving only the run coil keeping the engine running. Would that not mean the solenoid is OK and your second suggestion of the problem being in the feed to the solenoid is it.

I looked in the WSM and the one wire goes to the ignition key switch. There is a 5 amp fuse in the line but that must be OK or the solenoid would not have any power in any key position.

Dave M7040

I just got back from working on it. I checked the ignition with a multi-meter and when the key is on the run position their is no reading on my multi-meter. So I'd say I have a bad ignition.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The one wiring diagram you posted is a little misleading RED path is the Hold circuit, Blue path is the start circuit, and the yellow mark with the X denotes that that connection does not go to ground (in other words someone messed up on the drawling).

You get power on the red when the key is on or cranking.
You get power on the blue path only when it's cranking.

The stop solenoid is to the rear of the injection pump.
Disconnect the plug to the stop solenoid and double check that you have not blown any fuses, then recheck your voltage.

 

[Dave_eng]

The one wiring diagram you posted is a little misleading RED path is the Hold circuit, Blue path is the start circuit, and the yellow mark with the X denotes that that connection does not go to ground (in other words someone messed up on the drawling).

You get power on the red when the key is on or cranking.
You get power on the blue path only when it's cranking.

The stop solenoid is to the rear of the injection pump.
Disconnect the plug to the stop solenoid and double check that you have not blown any fuses, then recheck your voltage.

Much appreciate you taking the time to make sense of what was happening vs what was in the WSM wiring diagrams.

I got the WSM stuff from Kubotabooks. Should I be suspicious of the material on there?

I went back to the original material I got from Kubota books and realized that the X you have highlighted in yellow was on the original material I downloaded. So whoever had the WSM that went to Kubota Books realized, like you, the wiring diagram was wrong. It is unfortunate that same person did not provide the full proper changes as you have here.

On a different thread on another forum, someone was asking why the two 12 volt wires on his solenoid were joined together a few inches away from the solenoid. I found the same on my M7040. When I zoomed in on the solenoid in the pdf WSM, I could see the internal contacts as in this image.

When would this different wiring of the engine stop solenoid start to be used?

Dave M7040

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

On a different thread on another forum, someone was asking why the two 12 volt wires on his solenoid were joined together a few inches away from the solenoid. I found the same on my M7040. When I zoomed in on the solenoid in the pdf WSM, I could see the internal contacts as in this image.

When would this different wiring of the engine stop solenoid start to be used?

Dave M7040

I'm not sure when exactly or what models were the turn over to that style solenoid.

Kubota has used several different type setups to stop the engines over the years and they also go back and forth on which ones they use and when they use it.

Some ask why there are several manuals for the same model tractor, a lot of time it's because of situations like this, they don't change the original manual, they make they changes and then release it as a new #.

 

[Dave_eng]

Wolfman
I sent an email to Kubota Books.com telling them of the better version of the B1700 stop solenoid wiring along with your 4 line explanation. I sent your blue and red image.

Told them the error was recognized by someone very knowledgeable!
Hope they have a way to insert it into the WSM on their site.

Dave M7040

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Stop solenoids are becoming a thing of the past as most of the new style diesels are going common rail with electronic injectors and on those they just cut the fuel off at the injector.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I submitted another file to kubotabook.com to show how it should look.

Here is that file:
PDF: http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27369&stc=1&d=1486930545

And an image of that PDF:

 

[simpson1]

Update: I removed the ignition and tapped it on the table to clean it out. I put it back in and turned the key and nothing happened. So I grabbed the screw driver and jumped it from the solenoid. It started and kept running even though I wasn't holding the key. I drove it for about 10 minutes and it runs great. Since I have to jump it, I still ordered a new ignition and some other parts from the dealer.

 

[simpson1]

Great that information is very useful.

Start it and while you are holding the key in the start position, remove the small wire on the solenoid so we know the solenoid is not staying engaged and keeping the starter running. If the engine continues to run with this wire off, then the key switch is highly suspect. The reason I say this is because the engine stop solenoid should be getting power in other key positions and if it is getting power in the start position then it must be OK.

The key switch guts could be full of crud and its internal contacts not making good or reliable contact.

You could remove the ignition switch and try getting an electrical contact spray into it. You could measure the resistance between contacts in various key positions.

You have a multimeter. Turn the key to start and hold it there and measure any voltage on the wire to the starter solenoid. Do this with the wire on the solenoid and off the solenoid. If you are getting some voltage it means all the safety switches are closing their contacts but their contacts may be too dirty to pass lots of power when the solenoid is in the circuit. If that is the case we can plan an additional relay to engage the starter solenoid even with a weak signal from the safety switches.

Dave M7040

Well I put a new ignition in it yesterday. Went to turn the key and nothing happened. What should I try next?

 

[Dave_eng]

Well I put a new ignition in it yesterday. Went to turn the key and nothing happened. What should I try next?

Simpson
How frustrating for you. Could you provide a little more info plse.

Before you could jump it with a screwdriver and it would start and run. Does it still work that way now?

When you turn the key on does anything light up or change?

Is power still getting to the switch or is there no voltage at all?

When you were changing the switch, was the battery disconnected or could you have blown the fusible link?

I cannot recall if I provided a photo of what I think a fusible link would look like on your tractor so I will post it here just in case you have not seen it.

If everything is dead and yet the battery is good and all the positive and negative battery connections are clean and solid, then the fusible link is the big suspect. In case you dont know, a fusible link is just a smaller diameter piece of wire with a special insulation over it. It is like the slow blow fuses on new tractors. It is durable way to protect the tractor wiring. When the link blows the insulation may look a little mushy or overheated. Dont replace it with an ordinary piece of wire. It is in series with the main power wire to the tractor so checking it means checking for 12 volts on either side of the link. There should be 12 volts to ground on either side if it is good and only one one side if it is blown.

Dave M7040

 

[simpson1]

Simpson
How frustrating for you. Could you provide a little more info plse.

Before you could jump it with a screwdriver and it would start and run. Does it still work that way now?

When you turn the key on does anything light up or change?

Is power still getting to the switch or is there no voltage at all?

When you were changing the switch, was the battery disconnected or could you have blown the fusible link?

I cannot recall if I provided a photo of what I think a fusible link would look like on your tractor so I will post it here just in case you have not seen it.

If everything is dead and yet the battery is good and all the positive and negative battery connections are clean and solid, then the fusible link is the big suspect. In case you dont know, a fusible link is just a smaller diameter piece of wire with a special insulation over it. It is like the slow blow fuses on new tractors. It is durable way to protect the tractor wiring. When the link blows the insulation may look a little mushy or overheated. Dont replace it with an ordinary piece of wire. It is in series with the main power wire to the tractor so checking it means checking for 12 volts on either side of the link. There should be 12 volts to ground on either side if it is good and only one one side if it is blown.

Dave M7040

I can still jump it with a screw driver and it stays running when I do that. Everything on the dash lights up. I didn't unhook the battery when I put the ignition in. Could it be the starter solenoid or the fuel stop solenoid?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I thought we had established you have a bad fuel stop solenoid a while back?

 

[bystandered]

It stopped running or stopped cranking?

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