2014 L4060 Will not start. Cranks won't fire

eserv

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I guess I was expecting a high pressure pump and a ECU to be pretty stamdard parts on these new tractors that they would carry. Buuuuut maybe not....did you say a few thousand dollars.......?
In Canada the high pressure pump is $3400 and the ECU is $2750!:eek: No, I don't think your dealer will have them in stock!! In the case of a ECU you have to email the SN of the tractor and engine to Kubota so they can program it to match your tractor.
 
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sheepfarmer

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In the interests of other 60 series tractor owners picking up this thread in the future, it is really clear that you don't want to have a fuel gel problem, a water in the fuel problem, or an algae problem because it could get very expensive, very fast in these new tractors. Those are somewhat preventable problems.

Heli, what can you tell us about the reason you thought the original problem was fuel gelling? What did the stuff in your fuel filter look like? Did your tractor have summer diesel? Additives? Type? When was the last time the filters were changed?

Second thought, and it's a little late on this project, would be to take notes and photograph each part of the tractor that is touched in any way as you go along with your troubleshooting. If some parts turn out to be better left alone please let us all know, so we won't make similar mistakes.
 

Heli8ight

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Once I figure this issue out I will take a bunch of pictures and post all of my findings and learnings from this experience.

My tractor had about a half a tank of summer blend fuel in it. I use the Howes fuel treatment but can't say for sure what I had for treatment in this tank I certainly did not treat the fuel on everyfillup like i should have. Two things I learned from this experience tier 4 tractors want to be run at high idle all the time. Because I use the tractor so little I probably shouldn't have bought it! As for the gelling...after the tractor stalled it restarted and I immediately thought possibly I had a gelling issue so I tried to idle it to the heated garage which I did not make. After gently stalling out again I pulled the water separated and could see what looked like yellowish green snot on the separator screen (not a excessive amount by anymeans) as for the fuel filter itself it was just assumed there was gelling but you can't really see into these filters because they are like a cars oil filter. Gelling here would also be minimal because I did have fuel flow through the filter so at no point were the filters completely clogged.

At this point I can't say for sure that I did anything wrong or even what exactly caused the issue or what the issue is. Testing with an oscilloscope I know the ECU is sending signals to the suction valve on the HP pump so I feel pretty confident the ECU is fine. Speaking with Kubota techs from WI,PA and two from locations in NH they say I'm doing pretty much everything they would do if the tractor was in their shop. I do not have the diag system that they have but I was told by one tech that it's only really useful if the engine starts??? Now my tractor is out of warranty so I'm going to continue to tear into it and I have spoken to the techs about this choice. They all said that they think I will find the issue. Now if I needed the tractor yesterday this would not be my choice. As for onsite support for the issue I am experiencing even the techs are saying with what I have already checked I would most likely be laying them to come out to tell me the tractor needs to go to the shop.
 
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D2Cat

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"After gently stalling out again I pulled the water separated and could see what looked like yellowish green snot on the separator screen (not a excessive amount by anymeans)"

Sounds like you have algae in your fuel. Gummed up the fuel system!
 

Heli8ight

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"After gently stalling out again I pulled the water separated and could see what looked like yellowish green snot on the separator screen (not a excessive amount by anymeans)"

Sounds like you have algae in your fuel. Gummed up the fuel system!
It could be. I'm going to drain and flush the tank and clean all fuel lines to the UP pump. If I still do not get and spray out of the HP pump then I will pull the pump to understand why it's not working it's a mechanical pump so should be pretty straight forward. The ECU that controls the suction valve has not entirely left my line of sight.......I haven't found a service center yet that understands this assembly to any extensive amount.
 

eserv

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BX24, A1000 Kubota Generator
May 27, 2009
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Hardisty, Alberta
Diagmaster will give lots of information without starting the tractor. Diagmaster only "sees" electrical components though so it is useless to determine mechanical problems except that it will confirm whether the mechanical components are providing rail pressure or not. You are likely right though that a trip to the the site will just confirm that it needs to go to the shop. The tractor should run even if the ECU doesn't send a signal to it but it won't run unless the ECU sends a signal to the injectors.
 
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Two things I learned from this experience tier 4 tractors want to be run at high idle all the time.
There is a mod for early, 2011-2017 or so SuperDuty's. The short version is you wire a rheostat into an upfitter switch and get a high idle. My understanding is newer SD's have an auto shut down after x amount of idle minutes. The moral is don't idle engines with DPF.
 

rjcorazza

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There is a mod for early, 2011-2017 or so SuperDuty's. The short version is you wire a rheostat into an upfitter switch and get a high idle. My understanding is newer SD's have an auto shut down after x amount of idle minutes. The moral is don't idle engines with DPF.


I did that mod to my 6.2L gas plow truck, but I used a fixed value resistor to get either 900 or 1500 rpm.
I keep my L4060 at 1500 rpm or so for brief periods of idling.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 

sheepfarmer

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It could be. I'm going to drain and flush the tank and clean all fuel lines to the UP pump. If I still do not get and spray out of the HP pump then I will pull the pump to understand why it's not working it's a mechanical pump so should be pretty straight forward. The ECU that controls the suction valve has not entirely left my line of sight.......I haven't found a service center yet that understands this assembly to any extensive amount.
Did you by chance save the gunk from your water separator? I am thinking if you could determine if it dissolves with heat and nothing was left it would help to reassure you that you had only one clogging material, not two.

Second, did you replace the fuel filter or just warm it up? If the filter itself is passing less than the normal amount it could cause problems. That would be an easy thing to do if you haven't done already. It looks to me on the parts diagram that the bleeder screw would allow fuel to leak out from a line that has a T in it, making some of your previous experiments harder to interpret.

I am clutching at straws here on your behalf because draining the fuel tank could be easier said than done. It is in two halves connected by a large tube with a check valve in it:eek: one of the halves appears to have the oil filler pipe running through the middle :eek::eek: My thought that you could suck out the fuel through the fuel filler pipe won't get the fuel from the left half due to the check valve.

After looking at the parts diagrams and comparing with the diagram from the wsm, there are a lot of discrepancies. The order of the components is not exactly the same. My parts diagram is several years old, so you need to download the one for yours. I am curious about the function, and so as not to hijack your thread, if I get ambitious I will start another.

Edit: I have looked at the kubota online parts diagrams, and there has been no changes since I printed mine, and the 4060hst is identical to the l3560hst.
 
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Heli8ight

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L4060
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Did you by chance save the gunk from your water separator? I am thinking if you could determine if it dissolves with heat and nothing was left it would help to reassure you that you had only one clogging material, not two.

Second, did you replace the fuel filter or just warm it up? If the filter itself is passing less than the normal amount it could cause problems. That would be an easy thing to do if you haven't done already. It looks to me on the parts diagram that the bleeder screw would allow fuel to leak out from a line that has a T in it, making some of your previous experiments harder to interpret.

I am clutching at straws here on your behalf because draining the fuel tank could be easier said than done. It is in two halves connected by a large tube with a check valve in it:eek: one of the halves appears to have the oil filler pipe running through the middle :eek::eek: My thought that you could suck out the fuel through the fuel filler pipe won't get the fuel from the left half due to the check valve.

After looking at the parts diagrams and comparing with the diagram from the wsm, there are a lot of discrepancies. The order of the components is not exactly the same. My parts diagram is several years old, so you need to download the one for yours. I am curious about the function, and so as not to hijack your thread, if I get ambitious I will start another.

Edit: I have looked at the kubota online parts diagrams, and there has been no changes since I printed mine, and the 4060hst is identical to the l3560hst.
- So the Gelled fuel was just that and did dissolve very easily with minimal heat.

- The only way to drain the tank without tearing them down was to simply let the fuel pump do the job. So where the fuel pump runs to the check valve I disconnected it and routed it into a bucket. The fuel looks just as good as the new stuff I put in.

- I did replace the fuel filter also with a new one but still no luck.

I haven't checked the glow plug circuit and I probably should since I am not seeing the glow plug symbol show up at all on my display? But its in a heated garage so this could be normal???

With having so many projects on the list my wife has convinced me to just load it up on the trailer and take it to the dealer. This has challenges also in that my loader was sitting on the floor. At some point I will share the process of jacking it up and making piston chucks. Hopefully this afternoon I will be winching it onto the trailer. It breaks my heart that I only have 124 hours on this thing and something is wrong with it. Being as young as it is I cant see how anything big could be wrong with it but at the same time I feel as though I would have solved this if it was simple. But you never know!
 

sheepfarmer

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Sounds good. The glow plug symbol will not come on if the temp is above about 18 F. Will be curious about what they find. Seems like someone posted a solution to the dead tractor with loader problem, I don't remember what it is. If no one sees your post send a message to North Idaho Wolfman.

Don't be disappointed in your tractor, it is not its fault the fuel gelled. These are really great tractors. I can only use mine about once a week, the tier 4 is no problem, it regens about 4 times a year. When you get yours back I can send you hints for that kind of use.
 

Heli8ight

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L4060
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I checked with the service center this morning to get an update. So far they cant figure out why it wont start either. Now this could be that they just haven't actually had the time yet to look at it and are buying some time?
 

Heli8ight

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L4060
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Update - The piston in the HP fuel pump is stuck/frozen. The dealer is working with kubota to see what can be done. My fingers are crossed this is the $2500.00 dollar part.
 

D2Cat

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There may be a lesson in this trial. Back on post #43 you tell how you warmed up the fuel and it wasn't gelled, then put new fuel in the filter. Putting fuel in the filter allows fuel to get to the IP without the benefit of being filtered. Not a good situation, filters are there to keep "stuff" out of the IP.
 

Heli8ight

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L4060
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There may be a lesson in this trial. Back on post #43 you tell how you warmed up the fuel and it wasn't gelled, then put new fuel in the filter. Putting fuel in the filter allows fuel to get to the IP without the benefit of being filtered. Not a good situation, filters are there to keep "stuff" out of the IP.
Maybe but the tractor was long dead before that process.
 

D2Cat

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Yes, you're correct. However, once the IP is replaced there may be other obstacles to overcome that existed before the IP went out. Hope not, but....
 

Heli8ight

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L4060
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Yes, you're correct. However, once the IP is replaced there may be other obstacles to overcome that existed before the IP went out. Hope not, but....
Oh I agree that's not the cleanest practice. I recall the fuel flows from the center in and then out through the outer side holes of the filter to the HP pump. so when you fill a filter you are filling the center directly you would have to work at it a bit to fill through the outer row of holes which would be the only unfiltered fuel.(unless I have that backwards) In my case the tractor was dead and after putting fresh fuel in the filter that never had any sign of jelling I have since flushed the entire system of the "old" fuel and installed all new filters and fuel. There would more likely be crap in the lines from my troubleshooting and taking everything apart than from the new road quality fuel I poured into the filter.
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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Never Pre-fill the fuel filter...EVER!

Most filters work the opposite that you explain, they work from the outside entry in the filter to the inside, this keeps the element from just blowing out when the get contaminated. ;)
 

Heli8ight

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L4060
Feb 5, 2018
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New Hampshire
Update - Kubota is covering the high pressure pump under the 5 year emissions warranty. I'm not exactly sure what they found as being the cause of failure but If they provide me with that information when I pickup the tractor I will certainly share it.