1996 B 2100's first stall in 24 years

[RAMJ]

First timer here.
The wife was mowing her back yard 9 hole PW course when our B2100 (1500 hrs) suddenly died with a half full tank of fuel. This is not the season for water in the system, so I started checking the fuel delivery system..
No leaks anywhere. Fuel filter changed. Filter housing and cup removed and cleaned, blown out, new O-ring installed, filter housing found to be without obstruction. Fuel flowed freely from tank to refill the cup in a rush.
The engine starts immediately on every try, but only runs for a second before dying. It will quickly restart, only to die again and again.
A new air filter is in place.
At this point, I am thinking an air/vacuum leak in the fuel system or obstruction further into the fuel delivery system. I notice there is some sort of diaphragm/ check valve? device next in line in the system after the filter housing. Could this be the culprit?
Any hints before I call the Orange Doctors? It has to be something very simple. The engine wants to run.

 

[BigG]

Since you pretty much covered the fuel system you need to check the safety switches. I am not familiar with you tractor check the safety switches probably has one for the seat, one for the PTO, one for the hydro pedal at least.

 

[Henro]

Since you pretty much covered the fuel system you need to check the safety switches. I am not familiar with you tractor check the safety switches probably has one for the seat, one for the PTO, one for the hydro pedal at least.

I don't know but doubt a tractor of that vintage would have safety interlocks that shut the engine down after it is running. My 2002 B2910 does not.

 

[RAMJ]

BigG, thanks for the response. No safety switches on this year and model for the seat. Not sure there is any safety switch on the hydro go pedal either. Pretty darned sure no is the answer. It has never revealed its function in 24 years. I can take a look and see if there is one. It would be no surprise if it or its harness has given up the ghost.

Definitely no safety switch program for any of the PTO's.

I don't recall any mention of a safety go pedal switch in the manual. Not sure how it would function without the seat sensor in line. We do have cruise engagement for the go pedal, but I believe it is 100% mechanical and is currently working flawlessly. I used it three days ago. That system is definitely not idiot proof. Please don't ask me how I know.

The first thing our dealer wanted to cover was safety switches. That tells me this tractor is older than everyone at the dealer, from back in the day when one had to read the manual and use a brain to be safe.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Me thinks you need a trip to Doctor Kubota.

 

[wgator]

Check fuse number 1, the 5 amp key stop fuse. Sounds like that may be blown which would cause it to die almost immediately after starting and may be why it originally died. That fuse supply's the hold voltage for the stop solenoid as long as key is in run position.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

It sounds like you have ruled out any cracked or pinched fuel lines. Can we assume you have followed the procedure in the Operator's Manual for priming the system like you would if it ran out of fuel? I think that "diaphragm/ check valve" thing you refer to is the fuel lift pump. It acts like a boost pump. If it fails, it could quit pumping or allow air into the system. With it off the engine, you can sort of test it by holding a finger over the inlet and pumping the lever. It should pull a vacuum and hold it for a few seconds when you stop pumping. Then put a finger over the discharge and pump it. It should put up pressure and hold it for a few seconds. If not, replace it. If I'm wrong, someone correct me. Thanks

 

[SidecarFlip]

At the age of your machine, I'd replace the lift pump as a matter of consequence and they aren't expensive anyway. Usually, when they fail though, you get fuel in your cankcase oil. Oil level staying stable?

 

[SidecarFlip]

You have about eliminated everything except the pump and I leave pump issues to the people who know.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Can we assume you have followed the procedure in the Operator's Manual for priming the system like you would if it ran out of fuel? I think that "diaphragm/ check valve" thing you refer to is the fuel lift pump. It acts like a boost pump. If it fails, it could quit pumping or allow air into the system. With it off the engine, you can sort of test it by holding a finger over the inlet and pumping the lever. It should pull a vacuum and hold it for a few seconds when you stop pumping. Then put a finger over the discharge and pump it. It should put up pressure and hold it for a few seconds. If not, replace it. If I'm wrong, someone correct me. Thanks
Edit: looks like your machine doesn't require anything special to prime the fuel system. You could also check the solenoid power if you have a test light or voltmeter. One wire on the connector should have power when the keyswitch is in 'run' and both should have power when the switch is in 'start'. (But my money's on the lift pump)

 

[torch]

Just for fun, check for water in the fuel anyway. Dump some from the filter or a bleed into a clear glass jar and see if anything separates out after a few minutes.

 

[RAMJ]

Check fuse number 1, the 5 amp key stop fuse. Sounds like that may be blown which would cause it to die almost immediately after starting and may be why it originally died. That fuse supply's the hold voltage for the stop solenoid as long as key is in run position.

wgator, This is a 1996 B2100 HST Bi-Speed Steer. It has no fuse box that I know of. There is one fuse that was installed in the dash when the electric controls for the snowblower chute were put in place. That is the only fuse I see or know of. The '96 B2100 manual makes no mention of any fuses and reveals no hidden location for such a thing. I guess I could pull the steering wheel and open up the dashboard cover and look for a fuse box of some sort. Perhaps an inline fuse on the ignition circuit.

 

[RAMJ]

Just for fun, check for water in the fuel anyway. Dump some from the filter or a bleed into a clear glass jar and see if anything separates out after a few minutes.

Had the whole filter housing assembly off. Pulled the filter bowl full of fuel. It was clear of water. I put fuel treatment in year round to fight this, because of the NE day/night temperature swings which seem to precipitate water in the fuel tank with great frequency.

I am currently working off a 20 gallon batch of fuel that has been performing perfectly down to the last container.

 

[RAMJ]

It sounds like you have ruled out any cracked or pinched fuel lines. Can we assume you have followed the procedure in the Operator's Manual for priming the system like you would if it ran out of fuel? I think that "diaphragm/ check valve" thing you refer to is the fuel lift pump. It acts like a boost pump. If it fails, it could quit pumping or allow air into the system. With it off the engine, you can sort of test it by holding a finger over the inlet and pumping the lever. It should pull a vacuum and hold it for a few seconds when you stop pumping. Then put a finger over the discharge and pump it. It should put up pressure and hold it for a few seconds. If not, replace it. If I'm wrong, someone correct me. Thanks

PoTreeBoy, I will order a new lift pump on Monday. That is my next try at this fix. Not a bad thing to replace a 24 year old pump in any event. The oil, just changed, looks good and doesn't smell of fuel. I am guessing there are no fuel leaks to the engine oil from the lift pump. Thanks for the advice. This engine has never seen a mechanic for any reason except a new alternator and regular maintenance. I do that myself. Still no oil consumption at 1500 hrs. As I have never needed to work on this engine, I am totally unfamiliar with diesel engines. I turn the key and it goes, all four seasons.

Will there be a lot of oil leakage when I pull the pump?

 

[wgator]

wgator, This is a 1996 B2100 HST Bi-Speed Steer. It has no fuse box that I know of. There is one fuse that was installed in the dash when the electric controls for the snowblower chute were put in place. That is the only fuse I see or know of. The '96 B2100 manual makes no mention of any fuses and reveals no hidden location for such a thing. I guess I could pull the steering wheel and open up the dashboard cover and look for a fuse box of some sort. Perhaps an inline fuse on the ignition circuit.

The two part B1700, B2100, B2400 WSM with Bi-speed turn supplement in part 2, shows the fuse box in part 1 on pdf page 39 (manual page G-25). You can download it free at the following links:
WSM part 1
WSM part 2

Note: the bi-speed turn supplement in part 2 says:
As for the items which are not explained in this section, refer to Workshop Manual for B1700, B2100, B2400 (Which is the first parts of these wsm's).

 

[torch]

wgator, This is a 1996 B2100 HST Bi-Speed Steer. It has no fuse box that I know of.

My B7100 just has inline fuses in the wiring under the dash. Maybe yours is similar? It would be worth hunting down. I'd hate to hear you bought a new pump if the problem turns out to be a simple fuse.

Of course, if it is a fuse, then the question becomes why did it blow in the first place?

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Will there be a lot of oil leakage when I pull the pump?

No more than a few drops.
BTW, I keep a pdf file of my WSM, parts diagrams, and OP manual on my cell phone. They're always available that way.

 

[RAMJ]

The two part B1700, B2100, B2400 WSM with Bi-speed turn supplement in part 2, shows the fuse box in part 1 on pdf page 39 (manual page G-25). You can download it free at the following links:
WSM part 1
WSM part 2

Note: the bi-speed turn supplement in part 2 says:
As for the items which are not explained in this section, refer to Workshop Manual for B1700, B2100, B2400 (Which is the first parts of these wsm's).

Thanks, wgator, this is a priceless resource.
Still investigating. I pulled apart the dashboard and discovered it was totally full of sphagnum moss. The nest maker was very particular about the materials it used, not a blade of grass, only moss. Now I know why the headlamps were flickering. The nesting critter chewed most of the conduit sleeve and insulation off the three wire headlamp circuit. I am patching that and will stuff some dryer sheets into the space before I close it up. Need to get some shrink tube and wire at the hardware store first. All of the rest of the wiring looks intact. Lucky, I guess. I see no fuses inside there, at least not the kind I can change out. No visible fuse in line with the ignition switch. I feel I am being led right back to the pump.

I can disconnect the tach and hour meter cable and rotate the gauge panel out of the way. I will have to pull the steering wheel for the wire repair. This is turning into a little project.

 

[wgator]

Look at the picture below, it is from part 1 WSM pdf page 39. Top left picture with circled number 6 points to the fuse box which is located on lower right side (referenced from sitting in seat) on engine side of firewall, slightly above and to the left of fuel filter.

 

[RAMJ]

Look at the picture below, it is from part 1 WSM pdf page 39. Top left picture with circled number 6 points to the fuse box which is located on lower right side (referenced from sitting in seat) on engine side of firewall, slightly above and to the left of fuel filter.
View attachment 47285

The key stop fuse is blown. We do have the clicking ignition switch problem since new. The dealer "repaired" it once at our great expense. It didn't take long to start clicking again. Maybe all that clicking heats up the fuse. looks like a lot of heat has gone through the fuse over a long period of time. All the fuses will come out and get the dielectric grease treatment. This fuse may be the cure. My beloved is on the parts run as I write.