Well/Pressure Tank Question

[William1]

Recently, I've noticed when my well pump (submersible, 80' from the house) shuts off, I get a single 'water hammer' clank. My feed pipe comes out of the ground, then attached to a few floor joists en-route to the pressure tank and switch. I do not recall the shut off being so severe (ca-junk!). When the water is flowing, you do not notice a change at the spigot at all when the pump cycles.
I've read online and saw on the tank label itself, that it was correctly charged with air when the pressure in the tank is 2 psi below the pump turn on setting with no water in it and the drain valve open. So I was thinking, perhaps the charge had gone down (the tank is 15 or so years old, and looks great on the outside). I ran the pump. 40 psi is when it comes on, 45 psi is when it shuts off.
So I shut off the well pump and drained the tank. The pressure gauge did not drop below 30 psi, I suspect a bad gauge though I recall when it was installed, the pressure numbers for on and off seemed right. I checked the air pressure in the tank, it was about 15 psi. Factory charge was 20 psi. I doubt the install plumber pumped it up. So I filled the tank to get me to 38 psi (with the water lines open).
I turned on the well pump. It ran, when the gauge read 45 psi, the pump shut off with a clank again. No change. Total volume of water from a shut off to a start up has not changed by any apparent amount.
I figured the chamber would act like a water hammer absorber and I would not get the clank esp. with a known level of compression room. I thought when seeing it low on air that I for sure found the cause.
Is this a real issue? Should I stop being anal retentive and ignore it or is there something I should do?
Sadly, this is not something I can work on with my tractor.....

 

[D2Cat]

The bladder in the tank may have a rupture in it, and the pressure you are measuring may then be the pressure in the tank and not the bladder. .

 

[boz1989]

5 psi isn't much, a lot of switches are set up. 30-50, or 40-60

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[eipo]

First... Your pressure switch is out of adjustment. A pump that runs from 40-45 cycles WAY to often. Your options are either a 30-50 switch or a 40-60 switch. Cycling is what kills pumps, so solve that issue first. That could also be the cause of the water hammer.... But I'm not a plumber.

Prior to charging the tank to 38psi, you should have had a very noticeable drop in water pressure between cycles. But since your pump cycles between 40 and 45, it never presented itself. It may have just been on when you were using water, which would actually be better for the pump as they can push against pressure all day long and actually run more efficiently when put under load.

It SOUNDS like someone Gerry rigged a cycle stop valve into your system by adjusting the pressure switch. Google "cycle stop valve"

 

[BAP]

Are you sure that it is the water that is making the clank noise or is it the contactor in the control box? The contactor can get so they make a lot of noise as the contacts inside start to get burned. Should be a box on the wall near the pressure tank that the power goes threw to the pump and is controlled by wire from the pressure switch.

 

[BruceP]

There is usually an anti-reverse valve between the pump and the pressure-tank. When the pump turns off, the water wants to move backwards (towards the pump) until that valve closes and prevents the pressure from bleeding back into the well.

Perhaps your anti-reverse valve is sticking open for a moment before it slams shut? Certainly, this would cause a single water-hammer occorance each time the pump shuts off.

 

[William1]

The bladder is not damaged. If it had been, I'd of not been able to pressurize the tank with the drain valve opened, the air would of just leaked out. Also, there would of been no pressure with the drain valve open.

Cycle time is about 30 gallons, which is about the size of the pressure tank (looks like total capacity is about 40 gallons, I figure the air chamber when compressed takes up ten gallons of space, that is just a guess). I had the high pressure set a little on the low side as I was concerned abut leaks due to the home being built in 1996 and PEX with the copper rings. I've already suffered about five fitting failures even with the lower pressure. If I had it set to say 55, I bet I'd of had more. It is slightly noticeable when the pressure drops but not much. 5 psi drop is pretty small. The contactor box is on the line right next to the tank and is not the source of the noise.

The shoe valve anti-backflow in the submersible pump does sound like a reasonable culprit. Snapping closed instead of a gentle close sounds plausible.

 

[Grouse Feathers]

It sounds like a check valve problem and will probably require pulling the pump to repair. The clanking noise is the valve slamming shut and it does need to be repaired before it causes further and expensive damage. At least talk to someone with a well rig to get there advice.

PS: The shock wave caused by the slamming of the check valve may even be contributing to your PEX connection failures

 

[William1]

It sounds like a check valve problem and will probably require pulling the pump to repair. The clanking noise is the valve slamming shut and it does need to be repaired before it causes further and expensive damage. At least talk to someone with a well rig to get there advice.

PS: The shock wave caused by the slamming of the check valve may even be contributing to your PEX connection failures

Sadly, it makes sense. On the plus side, my water table is so good that I have a shallow well, maybe 20' deep. Even in a drought, I can dig a hole 2' deep and it fills with water. So getting the pump serviced or replaced (might be prudent given it is over 20 years old) will not be a big job.
The shock only seems to be coming from the feed side of the system, no vibration in the rest of the plumbing or noises from other pipes 'rattling' in the walls.

I've got a fair plumber, charges a reasonable fee to make the house call and then charges in 15 minute increments (do not have a conversation with him, you will pay for it!). Plumbing is one job I do not do myself. It is simply not worth my time to drive out to get all sorts of fittings, fix and then drive back to return all the stuff I did not need.

 

[skeets]

80 foot well you can pull that your self, thats not to deep, but be prepared for more yucky stuff than you might think,, pull it and set a new pump you might be supprised how much better your system will work and check the bladder in the tank as well you may have to install an reverse flow valve really just a check valve. If your going to have it done,,,hang on to the family jewels when you get the bill

 

[Grouse Feathers]

I am surprised on two counts. First, up here you would not have a 20 ft deep well unless you did it yourself Twenty feet is to close to the surface water and possible contamination. Second for twenty feet deep I would have a surface pump instead of submerged. All you would need in the well is a screen and a check valve. Sometimes they even use surface pumps in deep wells when the water rises in the casing to about 20 feet below the surface.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

If your popping fittings on PEX and copper crimps, who ever the plumber was that did it wasn't worth a hoot!
I use PEX and copper rings and have never has a fitting come apart or leak, and that's even pumping it up to 100 PSI.

As far as water hammering, I would have to agree with the thought that the check valve is malfunctioning.

And yes you need a greater split differential on the pump start / stop settings.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I am surprised on two counts. First, up here you would not have a 20 ft deep well unless you did it yourself Twenty feet is to close to the surface water and possible contamination. Second for twenty feet deep I would have a surface pump instead of submerged. All you would need in the well is a screen and a check valve. Sometimes they even use surface pumps in deep wells when the water rises in the casing to about 20 feet below the surface.

It's all a matter of location, there are wells here from several feet to several thousand.
I am working on a house right now that the well is about 5 feet, and the water from it is cleaner than just about any of the water anywhere.
Granted these are spring feed wells and surface water never gets into it.

And as far as a surface well or a casing well pump, I'll do a casing pump any day of the year as they run cooler and more stable, also you can do high tech casing well pumps like mine that are variable rate pumps, they only move at the rate needed to keep up, so a little bit of water use only requires a slow spin rate thus it runs cheaper.
One other major advantage, you can freeze them when they are 20 feet under ground/water.

 

[William1]

Yeah.... I was afraid it might be a pump issue after I re-pressurized the tank. Stinks the valve in the pump is not a service item. I figure it would be a two hour labor change to swap pumps plus parts.
So do y'all think I should 'just get it done' as this is just a sign of impending doom? I know the Mrs. would not be a happy camper if she ever had to go without water.
Do you think a plumber will do it or do I have to contact 'the well guy' (who sizes you up and charges based on what he thinks he can squeeze out of you.

BTW,. my water is awesome, spring fed. Delicious, a pH of about 8, I treat with a little soda ash to get it to 7.5 or so. I also run a 'Big Blue' filter and I check it every six months though I only have to change it once every two years. I find none to maybe 10 grains or rock like debris in the housing when I change it. In like a neighbor who has to shovel out his toilet tak every few months because of the sediment.

 

[Grouse Feathers]

Yeah.... I was afraid it might be a pump issue after I re-pressurized the tank. Stinks the valve in the pump is not a service item. I figure it would be a two hour labor change to swap pumps plus parts.
So do y'all think I should 'just get it done' as this is just a sign of impending doom? I know the Mrs. would not be a happy camper if she ever had to go without water.
Do you think a plumber will do it or do I have to contact 'the well guy' (who sizes you up and charges based on what he thinks he can squeeze out of you.

You can pick the time or have the failure pick the time.

I would get a couple of quotes anyway. Plumber and well driller and maybe two well drillers if you don't know either one.

I still think your pex failures may be related to the check valve. The pressure wave can be several times higher than operating pressure and travels right past the pressure tank. If all your plumbing is pex you will not hear the banging in the walls like with iron pipe or copper. Repeated shock waves from a slamming check valve could push pex fittings apart.

 

[D2Cat]

Do you have any kind of a well house about the well? At the depth you mention you could put a pump on top, have a pipe with a foot valve down in the well and service the pump easily whenever needed.


I have a Myers shallow well pump at my well and it's like 23' deep. Bought it off of Craig's List from someone who had hooked up to rural water. Paid $25.


https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...gclid=CO_F0_vouNQCFQgpaQodBsQPiw&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[William1]

You can pick the time or have the failure pick the time.

I would get a couple of quotes anyway. Plumber and well driller and maybe two well drillers if you don't know either one.

I still think your pex failures may be related to the check valve. The pressure wave can be several times higher than operating pressure and travels right past the pressure tank. If all your plumbing is pex you will not hear the banging in the walls like with iron pipe or copper. Repeated shock waves from a slamming check valve could push pex fittings apart.

I agree about being in charge of my destiny.

I'll make some calls this week.

My PEX issues I think are mostly due to poor craftsmanship. When my current plumber was here last fixing a few fittings, he mentioned they did not seem to be on 100% correctly. I had he go around and look for any he could see and replace. He did a dozen that will not leaking, looked poorly done. My home was originally built by an electrician. I have found a few wiring errors too over the years....

The pump shock just exacerbates things. The pump issues have only been apparent for the last year or so, the leaking fitting, over the last ten!

 

[William1]

Do you have any kind of a well house about the well? At the depth you mention you could put a pump on top, have a pipe with a foot valve down in the well and service the pump easily whenever needed.


I have a Myers shallow well pump at my well and it's like 23' deep. Bought it off of Craig's List from someone who had hooked up to rural water. Paid $25.


https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...gclid=CO_F0_vouNQCFQgpaQodBsQPiw&gclsrc=aw.ds

I could have a pump on top, it is a cement cover and the well, abut three feet across but... I'd not like to have a pump sticking up. visible and I do not want to make a structure.
I've never had to service the pump in 17+ years and it is over 20 years old now.
I'm figuring I am only going to be here another 15 to 20 years so I might get away with one replacement,....

 

[D2Cat]

My well is at my farm. I use an old upright freezer for my pump house. Cut a hole in the bottom end for the suction pipe. Cut the opposite bottom out enough to run a 2" PVC conduit and 1 1/4" PVC water line up to hydrants and automatic waterer. Had my nephew paint the freezer to hide it.

The entire pump, with tank, is in the freezer. Got a quick disconnect for the elec. there and a receptacle for additional power.

Already insulated, hinged lit, free... No problem in 6 years of freezing.