Siping R4 tires and a very generous OTT member.

[mcmxi]

I made a comment a few weeks ago about eventually siping the R4 tires on the MX once I got around to buying a siping tool. A member sent me a PM offering to mail me his very expensive siping tool since it just sits on the shelf. Within a few days it showed up in my mail box. I'll mention his name if he's ok with it, but until then this very generous OTT member will have to remain anonymous.

Anyway, I was thinking about how I'd add siping to each lug and ultimately what I was trying to achieve. It makes sense to me that the more blocks on the lug the better the traction since each block is able to move independently and conform to whatever is below it. The deeper the cut the more each block can move and deform. Of course, the more blocks and the deeper the sipe the greater the chance of ripping a block off or doing some sort of damage to the tire. So to that end, there's a compromise between traction and durability.

I decided to make three cuts on a lug to make four blocks. It's been very cold here, but with the tire in the sun it was nice and warm. Cutting is incredibly easy and my first attempt leaves me thinking that I want to cut a little deeper, but overall I think this will help with traction. I'm not having any significant issues with traction, but this could help.

Here's the idea.

Here's the first attempt.

 

[GreX]

Curious why you cut in the direction that you did? I've only ever seen siping done in the same direction as the factory treads? Are tractors different in this area? Not challenging you, simply curious.

 

[rc51stierhoff]

Those are some clean / straight lines…freehand or some sort of fence?

In automotive applications sipes generally go across the tread…it creates more grip edges / friction that way.

 

[mcmxi]

Curious why you cut in the direction that you did? I've only ever seen siping done in the same direction as the factory treads? Are tractors different in this area? Not challenging you, simply curious.

Nice job on the image that you posted. I think that siping on car or truck tires is different to what I'm trying to do. I'm simply trying to create blocks to allow more independent movement of the lug.

 

[mcmxi]

Those are some clean / straight lines…freehand or some sort of fence?

In automotive applications sipes generally go across the tread…it creates more grip edges / friction that way.

Just freehand and it's very easy to do. The rubber compound in our tractor tires isn't the same as car or truck tires. If I could take durometer readings I would, but intuitively I don't expect the rubber on our tractor tires to react the same way as the rubber in car or truck tires. Based on the four sets of tires I have for the Jeep and Ford, and the tires on the MX and M, the tractor rubber feels a lot harder.

I might be completely wrong about this, but I don't see horizontal siping as being particularly effective for what I need. Ultimately it's all seat of the pants stuff since I doubt anyone has done any serious before and after testing. As I mentioned, I'm not having any real traction issues, but sometimes I get the wheels spinning on the steepest part of the asphalt when it's slick. I'm sort of copying the tread pattern on the LMTV tires to be honest.

 

[Smokeydog]

Looks like grooves instead of sipes?
B26 front for mowing. My lawn is so rough in some spots 4x4 with diff lock
M59 worn R4. Improved traction in mud and pasture side slip.
DIY heavy duty R14.

 

[mcmxi]

Looks like grooves instead of sipes?
B26 front for mowing. My lawn is so rough in some spots 4x4 with diff lock
M59 worn R4. Improved traction in mud and pasture side slip.
DIY heavy duty R14.

I'm not sure what the technical definition of a sipe is but I'm going for the LMTV block finish! This is the tire used by the US military in all sorts of conditions.

 

[rc51stierhoff]

I’ll try to add a little to add a little more color…last time I tried that was a tire topic and someone got upset…it always makes me chuckle the responses…anyway maybe this perspective will help…if not file it appropriately…when it comes to grip (stick to surface) and traction (ability to apply torque maintaining grip), those are very different things….they are related for sure…its also surface dependent….in an on road there is solid stable surface, and mainly need to move water for traction(sure snow too) but the surface is pretty consistant. For off-road extra lugs are going to allow for some compression of snow and maybe mud (and ground not consistant). when snow / mud compress that will create a friction which can increase grip (stick to surface). Off-road tires will not give better traction than onroad tires on a normal dry paved road surface (that changes if snow covered though as snow needs to be compressed in the lugs to create friction/grip)…there would actually be less rubber on the road if using off road tires on the road …but in off road you can compress the surface on the material to gain more contact to the surface (more friction / more grip and potential of traction). I am not sure I am explaining right (to be digested) but I am doing my best. Basically off-road type tires need to compress the material to increase the surface area of the tire grip surface….make sense? Adding lugs increases traction in off-road type situation. Now, on a paved snow covered sureface lugs help as mentioned above….on a wet paved surface it almost likely would not help and on a dry paved surface it would lose grip….it may have enough weight and you would not know, but on a dry surface the grip surface and contact area would be reduced with off road tires…I am guessing at this point no one reading…it’s all surface dependent and application specific.

 

[mcmxi]

I’ll try to add a little to add a little more color…last time I tried that was a tire topic and someone got upset…it always makes me chuckle the responses…anyway maybe this perspective will help…if not file it appropriately…when it comes to grip (stick to surface) and traction (ability to apply torque maintaining grip), those are very different things….they are related for sure…its also surface dependent….in an on road there is solid stable surface, and mainly need to move water for traction(sure snow too) but the surface is pretty consistant. For off-road extra lugs are going to allow for some compression of snow and maybe mud (and ground not consistant). when snow / mud compress that will create a friction which can increase grip (stick to surface). Off-road tires will not give better traction than onroad tires on a normal dry paved road surface (that changes if snow covered though as snow needs to be compressed in the lugs to create friction/grip)…there would actually be less rubber in the road …but in off road you can compress the surface on the material to gain more contact to the surface (more friction / more grip and potential of traction). I am not sure I am explaining right (to be digested) but I am doing my best. Basically off-road type tires need to compress the material to increase the surface area of the tire grip surface….make sense? Adding lugs increases traction in off-road type situation. Now, on a paved snow covered sureface lugs help as mentioned above….on a wet paved surface it almost likely would not help and on a dry paved surface it would lose grip….it may have enough weight and you would not know, but on a dry surface the grip surface and contact area would be reduced with off road tires…I am guessing at this point no one reading…it’s all surface dependent and application specific.

That's good information. I read this article about siping a few weeks ago. The problem is always applying the science that has been proven in one area to a different area of interest. It's possible that adding grooves to the lug will allow the lug to better conform to a flat surface thereby increasing traction. Like I said, if I see any change it will most likely be small. If I were having significant traction problems I might see a more significant change.

Let's be honest here. None of us are actually adding true siping such as is discussed in the article below. I have factory siping on both sets of the Goodyear DuraTrac tires that I run on my F250 and the sipes are very narrow and have a complex geometry. I should probably have titled this thread "Blocking R4 tires ....".

Performance Tire Siping | What is Tire Siping - Les Schwab

Siping is the process of cutting thin slits across the surface of a tire to improve traction for driving in snowy, wet or icy conditions.

www.lesschwab.com

 

[rc51stierhoff]

That's good information. I read this article about siping a few weeks ago. The problem is always applying the science that has been proven in one area to a different area of interest. It's possible that adding grooves to the lug will allow the lug to better conform to a flat surface thereby increasing traction. Like I said, if I see any change it will most likely be small. If I were having significant traction problems I might see a more significant change.

Let's be honest here. None of us are actually adding true siping such as is discussed in the article below. I have factory siping on both sets of the Goodyear DuraTrac tires that I run on my F250 and the sipes are very narrow and have a complex geometry. I should probably have titled this thread "Blocking R4 tires ....".

Performance Tire Siping | What is Tire Siping - Les Schwab

Siping is the process of cutting thin slits across the surface of a tire to improve traction for driving in snowy, wet or icy conditions.

www.lesschwab.com

First ‘none of us’ is a big term…that in this case doesn’t apply , at least in one of us. Second you are not worried about wet surface, at least I don’t think that is why you did that…third if you look at an off-road tire for actually all terrain use (I don’t care what anyone’s mall crawler wears)…there will be a taper to the lug which increases the compression of the material to increase the grip…that’s in the space between the lug if you look…good lugs are tapered…anyway from your pics I think you increased the ability to compress snow (increase grip) and some off-road grip….for a wet paved surface you may have reduced it, (for dry surface you absolutely reduced it…but we both know you do not have traction issues on a wet or dry paved surface(you already had more than needed).

 

[jimh406]

I'm not sure what the technical definition of a sipe is but I'm going for the LMTV block finish! This is the tire used by the US military in all sorts of conditions.

So, is the goal to lose mud easier?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You technically are blocking the tread.
It does increase traction as it increases PSI on a given block at a time.
You could double down and go the other direction, but as you noted you will decease block strength especially on rock or other hard surfaces.

 

[mcmxi]

First ‘none of us’ is a big term…that in this case doesn’t apply , at least in one of us.

I'd love to see a photo or two of the siping on your tractor tires. My comment was was very general and based only on my limited memory of what I've seen on this forum and some tractor channels.

 

[mcmxi]

You technically are blocking the tread.
It does increase traction as it increases PSI on a given block at a time.
You could double down and go the other direction, but as you noted you will decease block strength especially on rock or other hard surfaces.

You nailed it! The more blocks I create, the more the chance of pulling a block off the tire.

 

[mcmxi]

So, is the goal to lose mud easier?

If that's a byproduct of the grooves then I'm good with that. Mostly it's to allow the lug to conform to road irregularities thereby increasing the actual contact patch.

 

[Biker1mike]

TMI for a Saturday morning. I'll stick with my R1's and try not to trench the lawn with burn outs.

 

[jimh406]

If that's a byproduct of the grooves then I'm good with that. Mostly it's to allow the lug to conform to road irregularities thereby increasing the actual contact patch.

Let us know how it works or if you can tell the difference.

 

[D2Cat]

I bought a groover a couple of years ago to grooved the tires on my tractor and it makes a difference in mud and snow.

 

[mcmxi]

I bought a groover a couple of years ago to grooved the tires on my tractor and it makes a difference in mud and snow.

Very nice! How deep did you make the cuts? I'm thinking that 3/16" should be good.

 

[mcmxi]

You technically are blocking the tread.
It does increase traction as it increases PSI on a given block at a time.
You could double down and go the other direction, but as you noted you will decease block strength especially on rock or other hard surfaces.

I'll give this some thought. I'll finish blocking the lugs the way I show above and then possibly make a cross cut as you suggest. Something like this perhaps.