So the M5n-091 narrow is our first ever machine with def and regen systems. Both seem to work just fine, this tractor regens every 10-12 hours of use and looks like it'll use 1/4 a tank of def fluid every 65 hours or so. Was told this is normal but is this the case in the larger tractors or do they regen less often?
Regen and def on large vs small kubotas
- Thread starter Shadow_storm56
- Start date
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
don't know but curious....
1) what's a 1/4 tank of DEF cost ?
2) if you run out of DEF and shut off tractor, can you restart without refilling the DEF ?
3) does DEF tank have a heater in it ?
1) what's a 1/4 tank of DEF cost ?
2) if you run out of DEF and shut off tractor, can you restart without refilling the DEF ?
3) does DEF tank have a heater in it ?
pokey1416
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
Grand L4060HSTC, BH92 Backhoe, HLA Snow Pusher, Dirt Dog Tiller, EA DiscHarrow
Not sure if I can help but I’ve done 3 regens in 115 hours of use. Seems like 10-12 hours is really short? Lots depends on how throttle is used. When I’m roading with cruise control on and auto throttle disabled I can watch the PM % number decreasing. Generally higher RPM = less often regen.
Yea we got this a few months ago so just moving straw and plowing snow. No big constant load.
1. Probably very little.
2. It kills hp and eventually won't start if there's no def.
3. Yes theres a heater.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
re: 1. Probably very little.
up here it's 10 Canucks for a 'gallon', well US gallon, actualy a little less,,**^^&* Metric system
up here it's 10 Canucks for a 'gallon', well US gallon, actualy a little less,,**^^&* Metric system
regen is entirely based on the pressure differential between the opposite ends of the SCR element and by the ECM. All decisions are in the 'brain box, IOW, you don't have a brain, the EPA knows best.
All def systems have an inline heater, most are coolant heaters but some are internal 12 volt cal rod. Def solidifies (crystalizes at 32 degrees (f).
If you run the DEF dry, the motor will derate and there are specific gravity sensors in the def stream so don't try to add water or anything else but cat pee (def) or the motor will throw a check engine light and derate and the system will need purged (dealer).
I don't ever plan on have that issue. My pre 4 M's are emissions free.
All def systems have an inline heater, most are coolant heaters but some are internal 12 volt cal rod. Def solidifies (crystalizes at 32 degrees (f).
If you run the DEF dry, the motor will derate and there are specific gravity sensors in the def stream so don't try to add water or anything else but cat pee (def) or the motor will throw a check engine light and derate and the system will need purged (dealer).
I don't ever plan on have that issue. My pre 4 M's are emissions free.
Those of us with “zero emission controls” tractors get reminded from time to time how lucky we are when we keep reading questions and complaints from Tier-penalized owners. I saw my neighbors John Deere repair bill on his 2018 tractor and it was enough to make a grown man cry.
I doubt my heirs will realize how lucky they were until after they’ve sold it (likely for more than I paid) ...and then have to live with their regrets.
I doubt my heirs will realize how lucky they were until after they’ve sold it (likely for more than I paid) ...and then have to live with their regrets.
I take meticulous care of both of mine. The care and feeding of the engines and drive trains are paramount with me. Regular fluid changes always, filters too and only Kubota filters. I don't follow recommended service intervals except for greasing. Everything else is much sooner and with more frequency. Lubricants are cheap. I sure don't want a computerized, emissions compliant units. Bad enough dealing with my laptop and my drones.
The value of pre emissions units keep going up, not down and they are getting harder to buy as well.
The value of pre emissions units keep going up, not down and they are getting harder to buy as well.
We have a 2355 and a 2350. I will run thoes until they lock up, even if I were to get a replacement I would still keep the old one. They are so reliable.
The primary trigger for regeneration is differential pressure across the DPF not the SCR. DPF and SCR are two separate systems dealing with 2 different pollutants. There are other triggers for regeneration as well.
Most DEF tanks and pumps are heated by coolant but some have electric heating. The lines are generally heated by electric but there a few designs out there where the lines are not heated. DEF freezes at 12F It does crystalize when the liquids have evaporated from the solution.
Personally I do not own any vehicles or equipment with said emissions equipment
I wonder if you factor in the platic jugs for DEF and the extra fuel for the burn cycle. Is there actually any emissions reduction?
I don't either and I got my terms screwed up, yes, DPF. The SCR system uses the DEF for removal of oxides of nitrogen I have to disagree with you on 2 points. One, DEF begins to crystalize at 32 (f) because it's basically deionized water and liquid Urea and most DEF systems are coolant water heated with in line Mullion heaters (12 volt) to assist in keeping the DEF flowing in cold temps. I'm a retired from a Freightliner dealership and I dealt with emissions issues day in and day out and I would never have an emissions compliant unit.... and I don't.
80% of our repairs were emissions related.
Urea is a solid not a liquid. It is It is mixed with water to become a liquid, once the water vaporizes it reverts back to a crystalline solid or simply put crystallization. This can happen at any temperature if conditions are right as water can revert to its gaseous form at any temperature. This generally requires the DEF to be exposed to open air.
DEF freezes at 12F if you don't believe it research it. It also does not freeze solid but becomes more of a slush similar to concentrated anti-freeze.
And I work on these systems day in and out as well.
DEF freezes at 12F if you don't believe it research it. It also does not freeze solid but becomes more of a slush similar to concentrated anti-freeze.
And I work on these systems day in and out as well.
NCL4701
Well-known member
Equipment
L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572 box scrape, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
Unfortunately the truth of the science of what system truly in totality creates the biggest environmental issues doesn’t matter. The truth that matters is I can’t buy a non-emissions tractor (in this area) over 25hp unless I want to get into a major mechanical restoration of a worn to a nub machine. Some areas, pre-emissions units may be available in larger sizes. If I had one, I would maintain and overhaul until there was nothing left of it. At least in the U.S. I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Thankfully tractors overall seem to do a bit better with Tier 4 than trucks (particularly the first ones to get DEF) so long as they’re run hard. Putting around on jobs that aren’t pushing the engine and long idle times cause problems. Put a rotary cutter or chipper behind it, wind it up, and run it hard all day and it’s good. Move a few hay bales now and then; it going to regen often.
Coming from a history of gas tractors, I didn’t really understand how to make a Tier 4 HST happy until I got into a conversation with the service manager at my dealership about product liability and tractors after a recall. Agreed to explain product liability to him if he’d explain emissions and hydrostatic transmissions to me. He was really curious about product liability so an hour later I knew a LOT more than I got from the salesman and maybe he learned a little, too. The way we run the Kubota to keep it in it’s happy place would not be kind to our antique gassers. Thankfully emissions have been a non-issue so far. Probably just a matter of time. If nothing else it’s just one more thing to break.
That's why I'm here. My plan was to milk the older gas tractors for a few more years, then replace with a newer model in my old age. Several friends that farm strongly suggested that I jump sooner rather than later. I spent more than I really should have (sold an antique car I really wasn't getting enjoyment from), but I'm thinking I made a good choice timewise. I maybe coulda gotten a smaller tractor, but I wanted the Cat II capabilities. When I hear about the turnbuckle three-point adjustments I'm kinda glad I went with the "grande" L. I still may downsize some implements, but there is no rush now.
Soo.... the option with new tractors these days is..... abuse it and run the life out of it in order to keep the exhaust pipe clean and the emissions controls from shutting you down.... or pay the dealer to get it out of limp-mode because the tasks you do with it did not require working the machinery to death...Both solutions burning more fossil-fuel than what otherwise would be necessary to accomplish the job...?? It’s a sad thing to behold, when whats really needed is better (more efficient, more fuel-thrifty and less abusive) emissions-design.
I recognize that not everyone can be so fortunate, but I think it’s worth being patient to find an under-utilized, larger, ”basic” tractor with no emissions than to get a new compact “loaded“ toy with features you don’t really need. I suspect that the whistles and bells are simply too attractive to excited new owners and they may overlook the utility of more basic machines.
So, if the Topic of this thread is whether to buy larger but more basic versus smaller “loaded” machines.... I’m on the side of the former.
NCL4701
Well-known member
Equipment
L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572 box scrape, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
I haven’t been on this forum nearly as long as some, but this too often repeated fantasy of a sufficient quantity of unicorn “under utilized” pre emissions units to meet the demand for tractors (or any other equipment) is so ridiculous it gets really old reading it yet again. Yeah, maybe you can find one once in a while and good option for some. To think everyone who needs a tractor can get an “under utilized” pre emissions unit and make up for lack of features with more HP is laughable to the point of being insulting.
I suspect most tractor owners are same as me in that they bought what they needed to accomplish some task or list of tasks, not some toy to impress their friends or society in general. By the way, we already had two very basic tractors that weren’t capable of doing everything we needed, but admittedly the weren’t larger so maybe if we had a 75hp 2WD without a loader, somehow that extra HP would make up for no loader and the 4WD that works much better than 2WD on steep slopes and swampy creek bottoms (that’s not a question, that’s a fact with our topography and soil.)
So far as “abusing” the engine with excessive rpm, apparently in your mind every manufacturer who puts a Tier 4 diesel (or is it just Kubota Tier 4’s?) on a generator or pump and runs it at constant high rpm it’s whole life is “abusing” the engine. OK then.
NCL4701
Well-known member
Equipment
L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572 box scrape, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
Somewhat apologize for the tone of the above, and might should have waited to reply. 3 hours sleep last night after leaving my father in the hospital, stopped by here this morning for a brief respite from the craziness, and here is the same “don’t buy new, search for the unicorn” post which could have been from any one of a long list of people that have posted it before.
So, GeoHorn, while I don’t apologize for the message of my response, I do apologize for my lack of tact.